In my experience, it's usually worth it for the person taking it, who just wants boatloads of spells and doesn't really care at all about effectiveness or role in the team. It's almost never worth it for that person's teammates, who end up babysitting a very fragile character who has very little in the way of level-appropriate offensive or defensive capability.
Basically, the class can be worth taking if:
(A) You're not the primary arcanist or cleric, but rather just a support character/"5th wheel"; and/or
(B) The campaign is very laid-back, rather than an optimized-party-essential meat grinder like the Age of Worms.
The class is best as a utility caster. The one who piles up everyone with darkvision, greater magic weapon, and all the other daily buffs the party could want. In a fight, they use shorter term buffs, healing/status removal, and battlefield control spells that don't offer a save. While adventuring, they can provide generic utility spells for bypassing challenges or gathering information.
The problem many people have is that a lot of this can be done just as well by stacks of wands and scrolls. It will cost you money, but many people would pay dearly for an extra party member doing things that cannot be replicated by a familiar with Use Magic Device. But with restricted resources or few other casters, it can be quite handy to have around. Or if you just happen to be fine with playing a living magic utility belt.
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I'm about to play one in RotRL and I'm hoping to get around the gimpiness throught the Guild mechanic (Inner Sea Magic). I've convinced the GM to allow and the rest of the group to join the White Grotto, so as long as I build up a decent amount of fame I'll have a good selection of competive spells. Even if I only get 5 fame it's better than nothing.
I find that if you focus on classes that do more buffing than using saves, it seems to work alright. We have one in the making in a game I play on Saturdays and he works out okay. He's more focused on the wizard side than his cleric classes mostly since I've also filled the role as cleric.
We have a guy in our group right now who is going to be a MT. So far he's been really great at helping the party out with buffs and slowing down enemies. He is an elf w/ a bow and can put out a few arrows when he's not casting spells to help us. If played right, it seems like a cool class to be. Sure it's not as optimized as a full out cleric or wizard, but it's a nice utility class to have along in our party of 6.
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For me, the problem is similar to what you get when you compare a sorcerer and a wizard only worse. On the odd levels, the wizard is casting spells a level higher and who really cares if his lower level stuff is less numerous than the sorcerer.
With the MT, the problem is like that comparison only worse because instead of one level behind at half the levels, they are one or two behind.
The 9th level wizard is casting as many as four 5 level spells a day. The best a MT can do is 3rd level spells because at that point as he's CL6. By summoning a Bralani Azata, a 9th level clr/wiz gets 2 castings of CSW and 2 lightning bolts, both at CL6.
MT is awful. I posted a suggestion for fixing it, and to fix it you need early entry at 2/2, free magical knack traits for both sides, combined spells to not have the dumb penalty, and a lesser spell synthesis at level 5 that lets you do the same thing as spell synthesis with lower level spells. Then it might not be terrible to play.
But as is, its just an awful awful PrC that is essentially a bunch of scrolls and wands.
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and how exactly would i get my hands on age of worms, and savage tide without tracking down every single dungeon magazine with them in it?
Paizo has pdf's of every Dungeon magazine for Age of Worms on this site for $4.95 per issue. You'll be needing issues 124 to 135 for the whole AP. Frankly $60 for the whole AP is worth it.
With Savage Tide you are out of luck I'm afraid. Paizo's contract to publish Dungeon ran out before they could get the issues with Savage Tide into pdf format. As a result the only way you can get Savage Tide is through hunting down the issues on ebay and the like.
I was lucky enough to get both AP's in two separate ebay auctions over here in the UK. It cost me about £200 altogether and I consider that to be an absolute steal.
My advice? Get them now if you want them. They are never going to be published again and as a result they are only going to get more expensive. I'd recommend them too. They are damn fine (if tough) AP's. Plus both AP's have iconic big bads and apocalyptic end of the world consequences.
At high levels they can be amazing (I myself have a 16th-level druid/conjurer/mystic theurge with caster level 17 in both wizard and druid spells--makes the master summoner look like a chump), but the road to get there can be a long and harsh one (since you do lag behind more often than not during those early levels).
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RD, correct me if I'm wrong but you're still topping out at 7th level spells with a 17th Caster Level. Caster level boosting items just boost range, duration, dice etc, not which levels of spells you can cast (which is the spells per day class ability).
You've got lots of variety there but you can't compare summoning a single Tyrannosaurus with Summon Monster VII to 1d3 Tyrannosauruses with Summon Monster VIII. It's even worse at your next level when you're still at 7th level spells and your contemporaries are summoning Astral Deva or 1d4+1 Tyrannosauruses or casting Time Stop.
I get 8th-level wizard spells and 7th-level druid spells.
Stacked with the Magical Knack trait and an orange prism ioun stone means my spellcasting is better than a straight caster's. I only miss out on the fun class abilities (which is made up for by all the awesome spells that I get).
I could accomplish this as early as 8th-level and stay ahead for the rest of my career.
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What's the requirement for the Esoteric Training feat or whatever it is, other than the Fame score, whatever that is? If it is as simple as casting from two classes, why wouldn't every caster dip in the opposite level (divine/arcane) and take this to bump your casting level up?
Besides that, Magical Knack specifically says the trait can't let you exceed your character level so it would depend on whether the trait bumped you to 17th level caster or the non-PFS feat or the magic item did it first. Usually those kinds of things are ruled conservatively (especially so with a trait, which should be worth half a feat in power, and which specifically prohibits the effect you describe) so there's no way I'd allow any part of the bonus from that trait to be used to exceed a CL of 16 for a Character Level 16.
I don't really have a horse in this race but there's lots of ways to rule your group's interpretation as out of order. I'd never let a full caster be equalled in spells known/spells per day by a split class caster, no matter how cleverly he was built. Trading advancement in class abilities (lost due to MT) is nothing close to balanced with having a whole other spell list just one level behind plus spell synthesis.
To sum up, without that feat, the core MT is pretty weak for pretty much his whole career and gets to be not bad at 20th level when he's CL 13/CL17 and gets his first 9th level spell.
With the feat, if you can survive the dark times from 4th to 8th level, it's obviously stronger than being single-classed in almost every way. For that reason, I wouldn't allow it.
It's not a feat, it's a benefit for being a member in high standing to a spellcasting guild. Except for an occasional GP stipend, a few skill checks, and lots of adventuring hooks on behalf of the guild, it's absolutely free.
As for stacking, I am a 3rd-level druid and 3rd-level conjurerer with 10 levels of mystic theurge. That means my base casting is CL 13th in both.
Then I take the magical lineage trait for one, making my CL 13/15. This works just fine since it doesn't put me above my character level (16).
I then achieve esoteric training at some point in my career, pumping one class by 3, and the other by 1 (which, amazingly, is a real spellcasting increase rather than an "effective" increase). If I want to keep things balanced/optimal, I end up with CL 16/16. With an orange ioun stone, that turns into 17/17. Had I put both the +3 CL AND the trait benefit into the same class, I would have ended up with 15/17 due to the character level restrictions, which is strictly inferior.
The only bonuses that doesn't go above character level is the trait and esoteric training. Since I never actually go above my character level at any point before the ioun stone (which doesn't have said restriction), it all stacks just fine.
What I've done is perfectly legal RAW.
I get 8th-level wizard spells and 7th-level druid spells.
** spoiler omitted **
Stacked with the Magical Knack trait and an orange prism ioun stone means my spellcasting is better than a straight caster's. I only miss out on the fun class abilities (which is made up for by all the awesome spells that I get).
I could accomplish this as early as 8th-level and stay ahead for the rest of my career.
I'd never allow such a thing in my campaigns though, can't really say to have a single good word for the design on that.. you'd have to wonder how something like that makes it past editing.
Why not Remco? Thanks to action economy, the character is not appreciably more powerful than any other. I personally think it makes an excellent patch for the Mystic Theurge.
I think it should be a feat, not some membership thing.
As to the OP, yes MT works fine. As a wizard/cleric, at least. Mixing any class that needs 4 levels in order to enter is just a really bad idea (and druid has an inferior spell list to cleric and will never get wildshape; likewise witch has a VASTLY inferior spell list to wizard and hexes and their save DCs will never really get far).
But with Magical Knack, and...I guessEsoteric Training, it's fine. Even without those, you're weaker than a normal caster, but still stronger than any non-caster by far, so it's not like you'll suck compared to the rest of the party. Like others said....utility and long duration buff spells are your friend. You have a ton of spell slots, but no real way to burn through them any faster than a normal caster, so you're best off dropping as many buffs out of combat as you can. This can easily be very powerful, buff spells are strong. For offensive spells in battle, stick to battlefield control stuff. Those often have no save or making the save only partially negates the debilitating effects.
Also look at synergies between the two classes. Being able to have a Contingent Breath of Life or Heal? That's pretty nice.
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If the DM uses a lot of weaker enemies instead of fewer strong ones, yes. Make it an endurance run rather than strength test, and the MT's greater number of spells is more important than the spell level hit.
Lets take level 11 as an example. That's lvl 5 MT for a standard Wiz/Cle.
Total spell slots by level: 12*1, 10*2, 10*3, 8*4. That's assuming dual 18s, specialist bonus, domain spells included.For the single-classed caster (wizard or cleric), it's 6*1 6*2 6*3 5*4 4*5 3*6.
That's 94 spell levels for the MT. And that's assuming that the value of different level spells is linear, which is really not the case. For the single classed caster....it's also 94 spell levels. The MT has the edge in raw number of spells (40 vs 30, not a *big* edge), but you really don't cast 30 significant spells in a day. Lets say that 3rd level spells matter at level 11; The MT has 18, a real caster has 18. But you're trading Wall of Iron and Heal for Wall of Fire and Restoration.
MT is a trap.
Esoteric Traing, if allowed, can be added to a single-classed caster to make the MT cry even more.
Essentially giving a single caster the spellcasting ability of another spellcasting class 4 levels lower (almost) for free is not an excellent patch. It doesn't fix the MT it makes the single class caster even more powerful/versatile.
Esoteric Traing, if allowed, can be added to a single-classed caster to make the MT cry even more.
How? The CL boosts are capped by your character level, unless RD's summation is wrong.
Esoteric Traing, if allowed, can be added to a single-classed caster to make the MT cry even more.How? The CL boosts are capped by your character level, unless RD's summation is wrong.
Huh. My mistake.
Make the Esoteric Training a feat that requires 1 level in MT, and it is playable. Sure, you have a horrible time the first 6 levels, then you stop sucking and can rejoin the others.
"But then he gets as many spells as a proper caster, and then almost twice over! How is that fair?"
Remember that a proper caster calls upon a lot of class abilities, and get to focus on ONE casting stat, as well as the freedom to use his feats and traits however he likes. And no matter how many spells you have, you still only have 1 standard action per round.
"But he still gets great versatility, which is better than being amazing with one class of spells!"
Opinions and local game culture. In the games I play, there is a certain need to "nova" as the GM is fond of giving everything stealth and have it sneak almost inside our collective anus before initiative is rolled. No time for buffs, just a need to hit hard and fast.
Sure, in a game where this is not the case, and encounter distance is properly used, I can see the value of quantity over quality.
I might have played a MT with Esoteric Training. As it stands, I would not even play it as a joke.
The MT has the edge in raw number of spells (40 vs 30, not a *big* edge), but you really don't cast 30 significant spells in a day. Lets say that 3rd level spells matter at level 11;You did not understand my post, I see.
I do, but I disagree. I don't think 6 additional 1. level spells and 4 additional 2. level spells count as "greater endurance" in a level 11 context, especially not given the things you give up.
My main problem is that a single-classed wizard with UMD and the Craft Wand feat can do everything a MT can do... and can also cast level-appropriate arcane spells. Hell, a wizard with the Leadership feat can grab a cleric cohort and be WAY better than a MT.
It offends my sense of thrift to have a prestige class for something that can be so easily superseded by existing options.
My main problem is that a single-classed wizard with UMD and the Craft Wand feat can do everything a MT can do... and can also cast level-appropriate arcane spells. Hell, a wizard with the Leadership feat can grab a cleric cohort and be WAY better than a MT.
It offends my sense of thrift to have a prestige class for something that can be so easily superseded by existing options.
Not every dm loves having cohorts around, i know i sure dont like it when i run a group of 6 pc 3 chorts and 4 pets + summon monsters.
That said MT only works out if you use Esoteric Traing without it, its crap until u become very high level.
If you're playing a high level game MT's are great. I'm playing one in a PBP and he's a lot of fun.
As for Mystic Theurge, just play a Witch.
lol, that's actually a good recommendation.
People are way too hard on MT. Yes, it's weaker than staying in one class. But casters are so powerful, a downgrade isn't the end of the world. And the versatility in spells you gain is not something that can just be made up for with some items.
And the witch is also not a great stand-in for MT. She gets some spells from arcane and divine lists, yes, but her spell list is the worst of any 9-level caster in the game and is VERY spotty (inexplicably missing big ticket spells despite having other weaker ones of a similar kind) and just plain lacking entire huge swathes of spells.
A Wiz/Cleric/MT is the actual "Batman Wizard." He can actually cast nearly anything. He's too MAD to be chucking save-or-lose/suck/die spells, but the buffs and utilities he's great at, and he can do reasonably well at battlefield controls. In other words, he's good in all the types of spells that are actually the best spells. (Like Treantmonk, I dislike save-or-dies. They're just not that fun and in a metagame sense never really work, because if you DO manage to rack up a suitable kill % with them, the DM's just going to react against it and throw stronger / higher save / more immunity monsters against you anyway)
I will agree with the utility of the MT. Focused on lower level buffs and control spells, they can still contribute to a party at any level.
If there are no other primary casters in the group, you can fill both the divine and arcane caster roles easily. If there are no heals, you can cover that (out of combat). Battlefield control? Done. Utility casters? In spades.
It was mentioned that at one point you would have 40 spells to the primary wizard's 30. Use that. Cast a spell every round. If it is an easy combat where a primary caster might try to conserve spells, cast anyway, your low-level ones, you got extra. If it is a tough battle, cast the best you got and keep going. A strait wizard would be able to get more power out earlier, but you can heal up your team mates afterwards.
Here is a sample spell list grabbed from a Cleric 3/Wizard 3. Not on the power level of a Wizard 6, but all useful at 6th level I think.
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 3)
Concentration: +7 (+11 casting defensively)
DC: DC 14+Spell Level
Deity(Domains): Desna (Liberation, Travel)
2nd – 3 Lesser Restoration, Remove Paralysis(d), Silence
1st – 4 Bless, Longstrider(d), Obscuring Mist, Protection from Evil
0 – 4 Create Water, Detect Magic, Light, Stabilize
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 3)
Concentration: +8 (+12 casting defensively)
DC: DC 15+Spell Level
School: Universal
2nd – 3 Invisibility, Resist Energy, Web
1st – 4 Enlarge Person, Grease, Protection from Evil, Silent Image
0 – 4 Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, Read Magic
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It's the odd levels where that list looks the worst.
At 7th, their list is the same while the wizard or cleric has Summon IV for 7 casings of Aid plus Magic Circle vs. Evil from the Hound Archon, or stone skin, or improved invisibility, or Black tentacles.
I wish it could work out but I just don't see it. Sure you can make a minor buffer who is along for the ride but I've seen passenger characters like that before and for most people, they can be fun for a while but it's wearing in the long run.
When it comes to changing the game world, the Mystic Theurge is probably the most dangerous, as long as he takes "Craft Wondrous Device" and "Craft(traps)".
For example, our third level Wizard/1st. level cleric can create an automatically resetting trap of "Create Food and Water", and a trap of Prestidigitation to flavor the food created. Abruptly for 1000 gold the peasants of the town he lives in no longer need to farm for food, and can be set to farming cash crops. Likewise for that 1000 gold a castle can be made completely independent of food sources. How much would nobles pay to be able to sit out any siege?
As his levels increase, he can do more stuff with traps: A trap of Cure Disease means that plague will never be a worry (a trap of cure light wounds will ensure freedom from injury) traps of fabricate can make any type of item needed in mass, and traps of Wall of Stone can be used to do instant construction.
By the time the Mystic Theurge hits 16th level, the local culture will no longer be pseudo-medieval, but be some sort of fantasy post-scarcity society. Now that's power.
Wands do not substitute casters make.My main problem is that a single-classed wizard with UMD and the Craft Wand feat can do everything a MT can do... and can also cast level-appropriate arcane spells. Hell, a wizard with the Leadership feat can grab a cleric cohort and be WAY better than a MT.
It offends my sense of thrift to have a prestige class for something that can be so easily superseded by existing options.
Agreed. People brag about how great wands are, all the while not seeming to realize just how terribly expensive they are.
People brag about how great wands are, all the while not seeming to realize just how terribly expensive they are.
??? Maybe you use a different pricing system than the one in the core rules? Compare your hypothetical wizard 3/cleric 2, vs. my wizard 5: yes, I get 3rd level spells and you don't, but never mind that now. Because you can cast CLW and I can't. So I spend 750 gp to craft a wand of CLW with a caster level 2nd, like yours. Out of a WBL of 10,500 gp, that's 7% of my total -- not exactly a "terribly expensive" expenditure. And if I choose to heal 1 less hp of damage by going CL 1st, my wand costs 375 gp to craft -- that's 3.5% of my wealth, so I can craft like 28 of them before I need to go looking for more money.
And if you play Paizo APs, the daggone things are everywhere -- it's hard not to end up with a dozen or so wands by the end of a few adventures, even without crafting them.
A dozen!? Surely you mean that as a figure of speech? A simple wand of fireball at minimum caster level costs 11,250gp. A dozen such wands is worth 135,000gp.
You'd have to be 13th-level to afford that at all! Even then, you wouldn't be able to get much else.
Now, try getting wands at useful caster levels (such as CL 10th for 10d6 fireball damage, or CL 15th with an intensified fireball wand) and the price goes WAY up.
EDIT: Did you edit your post? Some of the context seems to have changed.
EDIT: Did you edit your post? Some of the context seems to have changed.
Added a cost comparison of wand vs. WBL, for a hypothetical 5th level caster. Note that I'm sticking with arcane class levels, and buying wands for divine spells, which is a much better deal, financially, than trying to do it the other way around (because of the CL scaling you allude to).
I do agree that wands are a great resource. However, as a player, I'd rather not spend a sizable chunk of wealth on a non-renewable resource if someone else can do it for less/free. I suppose the wand's cost is alright if your other teammates pitch in for something like a CLW wand. Of course, this is a purely personal thing and is not meant to be the right or only way to deal with one's wealth.
I've always said anyone who plays Mystic Theurge can continue the class after level 10, admittedly nobody has gotten that far, but I think being able to cast Wish and Miracle as a standard action is a suitable cap ability for someone willing to put in the effort. I think Nethys would approve.
And the witch is also not a great stand-in for MT. She gets some spells from arcane and divine lists, yes, but her spell list is the worst of any 9-level caster in the game and is VERY spotty (inexplicably missing big ticket spells despite having other weaker ones of a similar kind) and just plain lacking entire huge swathes of spells.Have you ever actually read the witch's spell list? Cure light (great for access to wands), stinking cloud, sleet storm, heroism, enlarge person and glitter dust, hardly comprises a bad list. A witch won't have the breadth of spell options most wizards aspire to, but is hardly worse than divine casters.
Yes, when I was in the process of writing my witch handbook and rating every single witch spell with a color coding, I did in fact set aside the time to read the witch's spell list... (-_-)
I think the problem here is relative terms. Even BAD 9-level spellcasting is still AMAZING. Because casting is powerful and all. But compared to the wizard list? Witch's spell selection is bad. That's just how it is... It's not just a matter of having less good spells. Witch just plain is lacking, almost across the board, the very best spells in nearly every category, at every single spell level.
Is the spell list, when combined with the all-day-use hexes more than enough to make witch a very powerful class? Sure. But it is absolutely NOT bringing the same library of spells that an actual wiz/cleric/MT is bringing.