Both as a DM and a Player, I have been on both sides of high AC.
As a player, getting high AC means no one will even bother to hit you aside from casters, but as a DM, do you just make the monsters have a higher to hit bonus?
I ask from both sides, because I myself have been guilty of monsters having much higher then norm hit ratings, but have also been the victims of encounters suddenly rolling several criticals in a roll, or doing enough damage to KO a character.
Yes AC means nothing over all, but at lower levels you can't very well start throwing non AC attacks at players or touch/flat-footed attacks. Not to mention what happens if the players AC has high all around AC regardless, or has such insane saves.
As a player, nothing is more annoying then to know that your AC tank build you made has not only been rendered completely useless, but that the DM has effectively punished the whole party for you having a high defense.
As well as running into encounters where the boss AC was so insanely high that you had to score near criticals to even hit the boss in the first place. Which makes the DM angry when your first actual hit on the boss does max critical damage causing him to effectively die "in one hit".
So what should someone do when AC runs high, in ether role?
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If your baddies can't hit the players AC then have the baddies do something else. I personally am found of using Combat maneuvers against high AC characters. CMD's will usually be significantly lower then AC and using tricks like Disarm to take that tank's shield and sword away not only makes them easier to hit it also removes their ability to do damage to your baddies.
Not the shield type ? then use a dirty trick to spin his helmet around and/or then trip him. Blind and prone does wonders for lowering those too high to hit AC's.
Think outside the AC box and embarrass your players with the other side of combat and giggle as they rage.
but at lower levels you can't very well start throwing non AC attacks at players or touch/flat-footed attacks.
Um, I do this all the time. Ray of enfeeblement is a first level spell, and a touch attack. Alchemist's fire is affordable by a first level NPC, and is a touch attack.
Sure, regular attacks are common too. And it's fine if they all hit. Or if they all miss. I'm not fighting the PCs, I'm telling a story.
No, you should not make your encounters to neutralize the PCs.. its bad form.-James
Best advice ^
As a DM for me its better to mix up techniques. I use a combination of several things if a pc gets way high AC.
-give the npc or monster(s) feats for tripping, bull rush, or a special attack like that.
-or i might make one or two mobs out of a group with a really good attack bonus just to keep it challenging.
-give a few of lower power mobs class lv's for different combat techinques.
And the rest of the time i will run my encounters as normal, remember the PC's are supposed to be awesome. The run of the mill enemies shouldn't be able to match up to the PC's power regularly. But I really aviod raising mobs attack bonus with out justification.
Swarms are dangerous at almost every level. And you can add templates to swarms...
Monsters can flank, charge, fight from higher ground, and aid another. If they can pull off all of those, that's +7 to hit even before we get exotic. A bunch of hobgoblins with glaives adding teamwork feats and multiple tactics to that can be a threat to a much higher level bunch of all-AC types. You don't have to build very much to make things difficult, just have smart monsters that work as teams.
Alternately, throw lots of dice. If the enemies can only hit on a 20, roll lots and lots of times.
Charm Person is a first level spell.
Bluffing the PCs into believing that the map to the ambush is actually the map to the treasure site is another time honored tactic.
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Stop hitting their high AC. Mix it up a bit.
I had a bad guy who confronted the PCs and got trashed because he couldn't get past their defenses. He barely escaped. Later, he launched another futile attack against them. However, this time, he tricked half of them into charging off a steep cliff that he concealed with an illusion (he was levitating over it to emphasize the solidity of the illusion). With all the party tanks nearly dead at the bottom of a cliff, and without means of quickly getting back up to their comrades, my villain made short work of the squishies left at the top. The PCs have yet to underestimate any villain since, whether or not they could get past party defenses.
That being said, if the PCs are built to shine in certain situations, or against certain attack forms, they should be shining more often than not in those scenarios. Let them. They are heroes after all.
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I had this occur in my game. Try looking at the following:
>How many players? If 6 raise the APL by 1.
>How much wealth/magic items? If too much, cut back a bit.
>Forget easy and average encounters. Go for APL +2, APL+2, APL+3.
>Which PCs have high AC? Plan the encounter so attack begins from the opposite side of the party. Try to get surprise if possible to hit FF AC. If it's only 1 or 2 players with high AC (that SHOULD be the case), then it will wear off in a level or two. Just don't drop any AC magic items in the mean time.
>Tell a story... remember it's not essential to wear down every PC nor be antagonistic in combat... as long as the encounters are interesting, the high AC (at levels under 8) will soon be not enough to resist the attacks of CR12s and 13s.
>Have many minions and other lackeys in-between the bbeg and the party. This allows spells to be cast, many of which are touch AC or Will Saves, something fighter-types might not have much of.
Good luck!
Regards,
Pax
You'd be surprised what damage Black Tentacles can do as a caster. I have a similar issue though I don't really mind it at all. Just make sure you aren't constantly focusing them with Touch Attacks. That's a bit lame. There are plenty of ways to get around AC every so often. Such as:
- Attacks that require saves
- Combat Maneuvers (Especially Sunder but use with caution!)
- Crit Based Builds
- Non-standard terrain. Things like Climb checks and Swim checks that can be hampered by armor penalty. Their AC remains useful for not getting hit, but it makes it hard for them to get to a bad guy or save someone.
I can imagine a charging mounted warrior whose buddy is flanking would give a +5 total to his attack (+2 charging, '+2' flanking, +1 higher ground).
Just make sure their high AC gets time to shine. Unfortunately I almost had a player walk out yesterday because his 35 AC fighter got crit once by a salamander (while the other two attacks missed), then against the big bad witch + magma elementals, got trapped with the party by Black Tentacles then Lava Puddled along with another ally that was near the elementals. Even though none of the elementals could hit him unless they crit and I was not focusing one person, he packed his items and almost walked out on the game. So, you know your players more than I do and you know the right amount of disabling you can do. Apparently, I'm never allowed to crit him again :/
Also, nets and bolas. Seriously, that will catch anyone off guard, don't do damage, and their 'disabled' period is usually 1 round. Doesn't neutralize them in combat fully, but it helps to hinder a bit. Remember, you don't want to shut a player down, just hinder them a little so they can think outside of the box a bit and use different tactics.
Or die and blame you for being a killer GM :)
Two answers:
1. Focus on the story, not how to "defeat" the party.
2. When it is necessary to give the party a challenge, use tactics.
All good answers, now what happens if you are the player with high AC and the DM decides to lift the curve?
Swarms are dangerous at almost every level. And you can add templates to swarms...
Incorporal swarms are the worst or perhaps Construct swarms (because they are immune to magic).
All good answers, now what happens if you are the player with high AC and the DM decides to lift the curve?
Taunt like your mage's life depends on it.... because it does.
also, you can the party spell casters can focus on some battlefield control abilities or spells to try to funnel the enemies towards you so you can prevent the bad guys from reaching your allies.
If the Gm has upped the curve, your allies will not be able to repel the firepower of the primary enemies, so you will need to, even if it is tough to manage.
All good answers, now what happens if you are the player with high AC and the DM decides to lift the curve?
I don't understand 'lifting the curve'. But if you mean fight back...
It is good to take a feat to improve a bad save. Like Iron Will. Can really help against Dominate Person which is the standard go to spell novice GM use on fighters and barbarians.
Your CMD should still be decent, making it difficult for people to grapple you. Same with trip and disarm. Feint won't do much since most of your AC is from armor so you being flat-footed won't be a big deal. Sunder is a bit scary, but with your magic items, it'll take a couple of tries to actually break an item. Unless the enemy has an adamantium blade but at that point... yeah...
For crit builds, there is a feat somewhere where it allows you to negate a crit. Honestly, at low levels, you'll probably just have to worry about an 18-20 crit which is only a 15% chance to actually hit your AC. A 19-20 has a 10% chance to hit and a normal 20 has a 5% chance. Later on, probably post 6, you might come across a 15-20 (30% chance to hit).
When going against somewhat inflated attack bonuses, Total Defense and Fighting Defensively can help a lot. Swarms can be dealt with by your caster or an AoE item that does damage, like Alchemist's Fire.
Don't be afraid to take damage honestly. You have teammates that can back you up and heal you so even if you take some hits, it's okay. You can't always beat encounters with the same trick or tactic nor should you constantly try to be. It's why as a player, I avoid one-trick ponies. When they work, you force your GM to try and pull out challenges that can end up making that one trick less than optimal or useless. And when that happens, suddenly it's all your fault and you're a terrible GM.
An attack cannot threaten a crit on anything below a 20 unless it also beats your AC (so a 18-20 weapon wont threaten on an 18 unless that 18 is a "hit" vs your AC).
EDIT: Which of course means that everyone has the same hit chance vs you regardless of their weapons threat range, which means a 15-20 weapon will not hit 30% of the time unless a 15 would normally hit you, now it may be the case that with high crit weapons that every hit is a threat (simply because your AC negates some or all of the threat range) which means you can be confirmed on alot if they have feats/traits/class features boosting confirmation rolls.
Wording there is a bit odd but I think I understand what you mean to say. Basically, even with an 18-20, you still need to confirm and to do that, you have to hit their AC or make a 20 EVEN with an expanded threat range. So an 18 to confirm isn't an auto confirm on an 18-20 crit ranged weapon. While it is true that you probably won't confirm the crit with a 15-20 weapon, you will still automatically hit and that's the important part.
You don't automatically hit on 15-19 on a 15-20 threat range.
Only natural 20s automatically hit, regardless of threat range.
I also remember it the way Michael does...
in circumstances where a natural roll of 19 doesn't hit, a weapon with an expanded crit range doesn't threaten a critical.
essentially only a natural 20 is an automatic hit.
"Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit (see the attack action)."
Also
"Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn't result in a hit is not a threat."
Looking at the PDF, you'd be correct. A non 20 crit isn't an auto hit. Never knew that. Admittedly, that's kind of lame now...
Looking at the PDF, you'd be correct. A non 20 crit isn't an auto hit. Never knew that. Admittedly, that's kind of lame now...
If a non 20 crit were an auto-hit, then EVERYONE would be wielding 15-20 threat range weapons.
Swarms are dangerous at almost every level. And you can add templates to swarms...Incorporal swarms are the worst or perhaps Construct swarms (because they are immune to magic).
That's true... What a deliciously evil thought.
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All good answers, now what happens if you are the player with high AC and the DM decides to lift the curve?
If the mobs can reliably hit the one character whose AC is 10 - 15 points higher than everyone else, the game has just become focused entirely on DPR.
The optimal group is now 1 god wizard with a wand of infernal healing and 5 barbarian/alchemists. The DM, of course, will be adjusting monster hit-die to compensate for the groups new tactics.
I like the swarm idea. Currently in a group I am playing with there are almost unhittable acs for our level. We started with high point buy and generous treasure and ye ol magic shop. It's fun to be able to build the character we want. Standard monsters from adventure pac are increased in number to deal with it.
Looking at the PDF, you'd be correct. A non 20 crit isn't an auto hit. Never knew that. Admittedly, that's kind of lame now...
no lame just fair READ THE RULES MORE IT HELPS
