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Does the following seem like a fair contingency to you?
If ever targeted by a spell or effect that deals energy damage, you become subject to a Protection From Energy spell against the incoming energy type. This contingency comes into effect fast enough to apply to the incoming damage that triggers it. Effects that cause energy damage, but that don’t specifically target you or include you in their area (such as deliberately walking into a fire), do not activate this contingency.
The first sentence really says it all in a nutshell. The following two sentences are merely clarifying statements.
Does this strike you as being clear, perhaps general even? Or does it seem complicated/convoluted?
I don't have that much experience with contingency, in actual play.
Based solely on RAW, I am not sure whether the combination is legal. Since you need to cast the spell when you cast the contingency, and protection from energy require you to state the energy type when the spell is cast, then it can reasonably be argued, that the contingent spell cannot adapt to the energy type.
Personally I wouldn't mind allowing it. I think it is a nice use, and one that I like better than the classical emergency healing / teleport to safe location.
I don't think the last part is entirely clear. From reading it, I am not sure what exactly won't trigger it. Perhaps you could refrase it something like:
"If ever involuntarily subject to energy damage, you become subject of a Protection From Energy against the incoming damage type. This contingency comes into effect fast enough to apply to the incoming damage that triggers it."
I'm with HaraldKlak regarding possible issues, but you can largely get around it by having a separate Contingency for each energy type.
Only a single Contingency is allowed at a time.
You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency. The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time.
I'd say no. You're not placing a spell upon your person. You're placing half of a protection spell and wanting the contingency to figure out the second half for you (the type).
You could cast it exactly like you describe but it would fail when activated for the same reasons given above. Your GM may allow it to work as you want it to work though. If your GM allows it then it works. I personally don't think it is asking for too much. Maybe contingency has a little more intelligence than we think.
Only a single Contingency is allowed at a time.
<--Wizardnoob.
This is what I get for not reading the spell before posting.
I'd have less problem with contingency "deciding" the energy type for protection from energy than with it somehow taking effect before the energy damage actually affects you.
Hear, hear. Contingency is an effect. Causes precede effects.
Yeah, that's the issue for me also.
The spell is on you, I can't see how it could 'know' you were being targeted with a specific type of energy before it happened.
I might allow it to work if it was going off what you will know. When you know you are being involuntarily targeted by a spell of a specific energy type (meaning you saw someone casting the spell and successfully made the required spellcraft check), then the protection from energy activates vs that energy type.
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I'd have less problem with contingency "deciding" the energy type for protection from energy than with it somehow taking effect before the energy damage actually affects you.Hear, hear. Contingency is an effect. Causes precede effects.
Agreed mechanically, however this is a common fantasy trope - I like the idea. I'd probably moderate it down by asking for an energy type.
I'd have less problem with contingency "deciding" the energy type for protection from energy than with it somehow taking effect before the energy damage actually affects you.Hear, hear. Contingency is an effect. Causes precede effects.
CAUSE: Targeted by energy spell or effect.
EFFECT: Protection From Energy is cast.
I'm not really seeing the problem. Compare that to...
CAUSE: Damaged by an energy spell or effect.
EFFECT: Protection From Energy is cast.
The former comes into play and prevents incoming damage. The latter only comes into play after you've taken damage. They both work.
It's like readying an action move away when a warrior moves to within ten feet of you, rather than saying you ready an action to move away when they move adjacent--the former won't provoke whereas the latter will. It's all in the wording (and the timing).
Personally I wouldn't mind allowing it. I think it is a nice use, and one that I like better than the classical emergency healing / teleport to safe location.
There aren't really a whole lot of choices out there for contingency other than those you mentioned thanks to the spell level limit and the fact that it has to effect you (which, but the way, not even the common teleport spell "technically" does). This is especially true when people tell you, you must pick all the spell's variables (like the energy type in the case of protection from energy) when you cast the contingency--such rules make it EVEN MORE limiting.
No, this absolutely would not work
Quoted from the SRD (emphasis mine):
Protection from energy grants temporary immunity to the type of energy you specify when you cast it (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic).
You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency. The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time.
You can cast a contingency along with resist energy (specific energy type) to go off when you are hit with that energy type, but, since you MUST specify what energy type your protecting from when you cast it AND you have to cast it as part of the contingency, once with it is contingencied it is cast and therefore locked into one specific energy type.
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It's like readying an action move away when a warrior moves to within ten feet of you, rather than saying you ready an action to move away when they move adjacent--the former won't provoke whereas the latter will. It's all in the wording (and the timing).
Except it's not the same. You are in combat and you see the action that has been taken, moving within 10 feet of you, then you move away.
That contingency would be more like ready an action to move away when the warrior is planning to move within 10 feet of you.
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How does contingency know you're being targeted? Can it make Spellcraft checks to identify spells being cast? If so, since you can't Spellcraft SLA's, would it fail to trigger against them? Wouldn't that also preclude it from working against area spells, since they don't specifically target you?
Can contingency see the future? If so, could you make a contingency that popped off a dancing lights if you were about to be ambushed, thus rendering yourself immune to surprise? If so, that's a 6th level spell doing the job of a 9th-level spell (foresight).
I guess I've just always read contingency as more reactive than proactive. I might allow the proactive contingency based on a different trigger, such as "cast protection from energy when I utter the word 'nukestop,'" with the idea that if I can Spellcraft an energy attack spell I can utter that word even if it's not my turn.
Charlie: How does contingency know you're falling when you're unconscious? That doesn't stop the feather fall effect you placed from coming into effect. The contingency spell makes it absolutely clear that your desire (or lack there of) is not taken into account when it goes off. If I fall, it activates. Period.
If the stated condition is "I am targeted by an attack" than the trigger happens WHEN I AM TARGETED, not when I'm hit, not when I'm damaged, but when I become a target and the sword/spell/whatever is coming my way.
Also, there is no "seeing into the future" involved here. There is a split second between the wizard casting his fireball or the dragon unleashing his breath weapon and you getting horrifically burned.
It's like all those immediate actions that say you can reroll, but you must choose to do so after you roll, but before you know the result of the original roll. Or Magic the Gathering game mechanics. There is a point in between where you stop and apply the interrupt effect. It's all done in the present.
Or Magic the Gathering game mechanics. There is a point in between where you stop and apply the interrupt effect. It's all done in the present.
You just called out the Magic the Gathering interrupt system as an example of how spells should reasonably work? I have no words. I'm going to step away from the computer and try to forget I ever read this thread.
Charlie: How does contingency know you're falling when you're unconscious? That doesn't stop the feather fall effect you placed from coming into effect. The contingency spell makes it absolutely clear that your desire (or lack there of) is not taken into account when it goes off. If I fall, it activates. Period.
If the stated condition is "I am targeted by an attack" than the trigger happens WHEN I AM TARGETED, not when I'm hit, not when I'm damaged, but when I become a target and the sword/spell/whatever is coming my way.
Also, there is no "seeing into the future" involved here. There is a split second between the wizard casting his fireball or the dragon unleashing his breath weapon and you getting horrifically burned.
It's like all those immediate actions that say you can reroll, but you must choose to do so after you roll, but before you know the result of the original roll. Or Magic the Gathering game mechanics. There is a point in between where you stop and apply the interrupt effect. It's all done in the present.
You are correct in this, and, as an addendum to this, you have no choice in when you trigger it (for example, if you're going against a red dragon sorc and contingency Protection for Energy (fire) and the dragon decides to hit you with burning hands, fire ball, or even alchemists fire, those all trigger the contingency, you can't hold it for the breath weapon you know is coming, in other words).
However, as I pointed out above, you MUST specify the energy type when you cast Protection from Energy, and you MUST cast Protection from Energy when you cast Contingency. Therefore, once you've actually got the contingency effect running the energy type from Protection is already selected.
I'd have less problem with contingency "deciding" the energy type for protection from energy than with it somehow taking effect before the energy damage actually affects you.Hear, hear. Contingency is an effect. Causes precede effects.CAUSE: Targeted by energy spell or effect.
EFFECT: Protection From Energy is cast.
I'm not really seeing the problem. Compare that to...
CAUSE: Damaged by an energy spell or effect.
EFFECT: Protection From Energy is cast.
The former comes into play and prevents incoming damage. The latter only comes into play after you've taken damage. They both work.
It's like readying an action move away when a warrior moves to within ten feet of you, rather than saying you ready an action to move away when they move adjacent--the former won't provoke whereas the latter will. It's all in the wording (and the timing).
It does mean it will go off even if the attacker misses, fails or fumbles their attack or something, which is a pretty significant downside, imv.
It does mean it will go off even if the attacker misses, fails or fumbles their attack or something, which is a pretty significant downside, imv.
Yes, yes I suppose it does. I don't think that's a bad thing as they will most likely try again (if they missed in the first place, they probably don't realize that I am now protected).
However, as I pointed out above, you MUST specify the energy type when you cast Protection from Energy, and you MUST cast Protection from Energy when you cast Contingency. Therefore, once you've actually got the contingency effect running the energy type from Protection is already selected.
I am well aware. I am also aware the contingency says the spell is "cast" when it is triggered. You are most likely right I imagine, but it still gives me enough leeway to ask for my GM's interpretation on the matter.
Perhaps I'll have a slightly more comprehensive defense as a result (and let's face it, contingency kinda sucks otherwise).
I am well aware. I am also aware the contingency says the spell is "cast" when it is triggered. You are most likely right I imagine, but it still gives me enough leeway to ask for my GM's interpretation on the matter.
Perhaps I'll have a slightly more comprehensive defense as a result (and let's face it, contingency kinda sucks otherwise).
I certainly wouldn't allow it, but the language is rather vague. Things like this make me wish Pathfinder had some kind of keyword system, so that when words like magical, spell, cast, damage, etc... were used there was a clear cut definition of what those words actually meant. MtG uses this in more recent sets and it has made that game so much easier to understand than it was around the cafeteria table in 5th grade with Revised and Ice Age and such.
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I guess I've just always read contingency as more reactive than proactive. I might allow the proactive contingency based on a different trigger, such as "cast protection from energy when I utter the word 'nukestop,'" with the idea that if I can Spellcraft an energy attack spell I can utter that word even if it's not my turn.
This seems to bend the rules slightly less. You might word it:
Cast Protection from Energy upon me when I say the word "nukestop" using the next word I utter to complete the spell.
Then if you see a red dragon, or spellcraft a fireball, you just say "Nukestop fire!" as a free action.
FAQ'd
I think it's worth clarifying here whether the contingencied spell is actually cast when the conditions are met, or if it takes effect as it was previously cast. As I said earlier, the language is a bit unclear.
Yes, yes I suppose it does. I don't think that's a bad thing as they will most likely try again (if they missed in the first place, they probably don't realize that I am now protected).
It does mean it will go off even if the attacker misses, fails or fumbles their attack or something, which is a pretty significant downside, imv.
That depends on one's style, I guess. In our games, we know when spells are cast (even if they're defensive without any immediately obvious effect) - un-noticeable magic is the exception, rather than the norm. I wouldnt say there's a right or wrong answer, but for my part - I'd like to give people a chance to use their arcane knowledge skills to deduce what had happened. I think it's a good payoff for non-combat investment. I wouldnt make it trivial - probably an easy DC to notice a magical effect, moderate DC to identify it as a contingency spell and a very hard DC to identify exactly what it did.
.If I gave a monster this, I'd want the players to be able to use their skills and then work out that they should switch energy types. (Not that they'd actually do that - any reference to the visible effects of the contingency would sail past, dismissed as 'flavor', I suspect).
Contingency effectively suspends a spell cast at the same time as contingency is cast until a trigger condition is met.
Decisions that occur during casting must therefore occur when contingency is cast. RAW, the type of energy from which protection from energy protects you must be chosen when it's cast.
However, it seems pretty obvious that point of "the type of energy you specify when you cast [protection from energy]" is that you must choose the type when it starts taking effect, and that you can't change the type of energy afterwards. As such, you could argue that you can choose the type of energy as the spell starts taking effect (i.e. when the trigger condition is met).
However, you are also arguing that the type of energy a spell will deal is known before the spell is fully cast. It seems to me that the two arguments are contradictory.
There are also problems with the wording. Effects don't target. Effects are what happen. A more precise wording might be something along the following lines:
When I'm targeted by a spell, item or ability that deals energy damage,
when I'm in the area targeted by a spell, item or ability that deals energy damage, or
when I'm about to enter an area in which I'd be subjected to energy damage.
But that raises a question: How can the target of the spell be known before it's cast? How can the type of damage (if any) a spell-like deals be known before it takes effect?
Spells take time to cast, and they have components from which they can be identified before they are cast, but this doesn't reveal what their target are going to be, and neither spell-like nor supernatural abilities have these tell-tale signs at all.
I'm extremely wary of triggering on things that will happen. It's one thing to trigger on a weapon being about to hit you (which can reasonably be extrapolated from its current motion), and it's another to trigger on something entirely in someone else's intentions.
Without going into great detail, no I don't think it should work the way you suggest.
I believe that the contingency conditions shouldn't be allowed, the spell has no way of identifying when you've been targeted and with what kind of energy. Secondly, my understanding is that protection from energy would require you to decide what energy type was to be used at the time the contingency and PfE was cast.
Does the following seem like a fair contingency to you?
If ever targeted by a spell or effect that deals energy damage, you become subject to a Protection From Energy spell against the incoming energy type. This contingency comes into effect fast enough to apply to the incoming damage that triggers it. Effects that cause energy damage, but that don’t specifically target you or include you in their area (such as deliberately walking into a fire), do not activate this contingency.
The first sentence really says it all in a nutshell. The following two sentences are merely clarifying statements.
Does this strike you as being clear, perhaps general even? Or does it seem complicated/convoluted?
I assume this is placed in general discussion because you have a ruling from a GM (or are the GM) saying it should work RAW, or at least aren't concerned with rules as much as a fair game. If this is not the case, there is plenty of other posts which I see little I can add to to support.
Overall, this contingency seems reasonably within the power and intent of the spell.
In terms of power, the reasonable ceiling for contingency is to have the caster teleported/plane shifted to safety after x damage is done. There might be stronger tricks, but this is generally considered a very strong use of the ability, and isn't seen as "cheese." Of course, being lower than the ceiling isn't a measure for "good" as a lot of OP stuff isn't as OP as it could be, but it is helpful. Furthermore, it isn't a perfect contingency. It can be tripped accidentally, or by something insignificant. It would suck to use it up because you touched a stove accidentally, but it means that it is a risky strategy.
In terms of theme, this is entirely sensible to prepare for. Villains often have very powerful minions and allies that could turn on them. Many of these come from planes where elements are commonplace (like fire in hell or lightning in the abyss) and thus have tricks related to energy attacks. They sometimes are familiar with parties directly opposing them (PCs, rival factions, literal armies against them) and know that energy attacks are relatively difficult to prepare for. This can work against any of them and helps the villain stay safe.
In a similar vein, PCs are often facing these threats on the daily. Most high level threats have the potential for energy damage, which means by the time contingency rolls around, they are probably facing explosions daily. A lot of things which do energy damage also target a defense most PCs know they lack in, touch AC. It is a threat that they know they could face from 5 angles and would want to prepare for.
As a GM I would much rather see this tactic used than teleporting by the PCs because it means the table stays together for the fight its needed in instead of having someone be removed from it so the rest can handle it. I also would rather use this because most villains I make either can't die without plot, or aren't required to be recurring villains, I usually do the later to see what the players want to leave behind.
TL;DR Without getting into a rules discussion, this seems like a clear, fair, and relatively simple use of the contingency and protection from energy spells, being both within the intent and power level of the spell and thematically appropriate.