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I do not know if this has been mentioned before and I apologise if i am beating a dead horse but shouldnt the spear be a one handed weapon? I have made it so in my campaign but am curious as to why the designers would make a weapon rule that is so counter to reality.
Greek hoplight spears were around 8 or 9 feet long making them equate to the PF longspear. Most ancient cultures produced troops that used spear and shield, from the persians of the bronze age right up to the norse raiders of the dark ages.
Perhaps allow the spear and longspear to be used as a martial one hand weapon?
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I do not know if this has been mentioned before and I apologise if i am beating a dead horse but shouldnt the spear be a one handed weapon? I have made it so in my campaign but am curious as to why the designers would make a weapon rule that is so counter to reality.
Greek hoplight spears were around 8 or 9 feet long making them equate to the PF longspear. Most ancient cultures produced troops that used spear and shield, from the persians of the bronze age right up to the norse raiders of the dark ages.
Perhaps allow the spear and longspear to be used as a martial one hand weapon?
Advanced Player Guide. Phalanx Fighter:
"Phalanx Fighting (Ex): At 3rd level, when a phalanx
soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear
of his size as a one-handed weapon. This ability replaces
armor training 1."
Page 105 APG.
Pathfinder (and D&D before it) isn't based on reality. It's based on fantasy.
Pathfinder (and D&D before it) isn't based on reality. It's based on fantasy.
...which is based on reality. The movie '300' is a fantasy movie, and has the spartan warriors wielding spears in one hand.
There is that archetype, which restricts wielding spears in one hand only when wielding a shield in the other. Which is kind of non-sensical. I'd allow players taking a Martial Weapon Proficieny (Spear) using a spear one-handedly (the same with the halberd, although it should be an Exotic Weapon Proficiency in that case). Classes that get the Martial Proficiencies anyway also receive one-handed use of spears for free.
It's equivalent in power to the other one-handed weapons dealing 1d8 damage. In fact, we already have a martial 1d8 polearm that can be wielded one-handed: the trident.
The long spear, OTOH, would not (as is any other reach weapon) be balanced. That's where the archetype comes into play.
I would treat the long spear the same as a bastard sword, either a two-handed martial weapon or a one-handed exotic weapon. I have read Herodotus. Hoplite/Spartan spears were very long, but also require great strength and skill to use one-handed. Many of Xerxes' forces carried short spears with stone heads in one hand and WICKER shields in the other. Anyway, have players burn a feat if they want to use a long spear one-handed. Seems fair.
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I do not know if this has been mentioned before and I apologise if i am beating a dead horse but shouldnt the spear be a one handed weapon? I have made it so in my campaign but am curious as to why the designers would make a weapon rule that is so counter to reality.
Greek hoplight spears were around 8 or 9 feet long making them equate to the PF longspear. Most ancient cultures produced troops that used spear and shield, from the persians of the bronze age right up to the norse raiders of the dark ages.
Perhaps allow the spear and longspear to be used as a martial one hand weapon?
Advanced Player Guide. Phalanx Fighter:
"Phalanx Fighting (Ex): At 3rd level, when a phalanx
soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear
of his size as a one-handed weapon. This ability replaces
armor training 1."Page 105 APG.
Nice. I have only recently started playing PF so do not have the advanced player guide. will have to get that.
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I tend to use regional traits to address this issue. Certain areas that favor the use of spear and shield, if the character is trained in all martial weapons, he may use a long spear in one hand, though he loses the reach ability.
Then I made a fighter archetype for the hoplites of Ibdylos (the Greece counterpart in Golarion).
You can find it here if you want to check it out. It replaces very little from the regular fighter, because I feel that this should be sort of the generic fighter of that region.
Also the reason that I do not like the Phalanx Fighter is that every hoplite style fighter would have to be 3rd level in order to be in the phalanx, while the general hoplite was, at best, a part time fighter. So I wanted the ability to use the spear in one hand to be available from 1st level.
Also the reason that I do not like the Phalanx Fighter is that every hoplite style fighter would have to be 3rd level in order to be in the phalanx, while the general hoplite was, at best, a part time fighter. So I wanted the ability to use the spear in one hand to be available from 1st level.
A Greek hoplite isn't a "part time fighter" in the sense you mean. The same class that voted (in Athens) was the military class. They were well to do, could take tremendous amounts of time away from work (top 10% population, often business owners etc.) and trained with an almost religious dedication. They grew up with the weapons, bought their own gear and volunteered as part of being a citizen. They were the best heavy infantry in the world at the time. Better than the "professional" infantry despite being citizen soldiers. The Spartans were dedicated full time soldiers (from the age of 7) and had the advantage over the rest of the Greek world. Don't think "untrained" when you think Hoplite. Add in the Greek fetish for fitness and the almost continuous warfare in Greece (and the resulting combat experience) and they were very impressive.
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I agree that they were unusually obsessed with physical fitness, but warring in ancient Greece was a Summertime affair usually. I am not even going to include the Spartans, because they were an entirely different animal.
As for hoplite, by definition, I guess you are right, because those that were actually hoplites were the heavy infantry of Greece. I guess I am talking about the general soldier, who was at the front lines with a spear and a light shield. I still don't believe that every army would be able to afford ALL 3rd level fighters to fill their ranks.
That is my argument for either a trait or 1st level ability that allows for one handed usage of a spear or long spear... By description of the Spear in the CRB, it is only about 5 or 6 ft long, meaning that the typical dori was a long spear, standing at 8 to 9 ft long.
I didn't mean to demean the hoplite, or imply that they weren't well trained. Any PC class even a 1st level Fighter is well trained, and I believe reflects the training that you describe. Thanks for correcting my mis-statement.
Nice. I have only recently started playing PF so do not have the advanced player guide. will have to get that.
It Phalanx Fighter archtype should be in the PRD (Pathfinder Reference Document) online which is linked off the main page here. The APG is well worth the price (I think the APG is their best supplemental book) and the PDF is a steal.
I agree that they were unusually obsessed with physical fitness, but warring in ancient Greece was a Summertime affair usually. I am not even going to include the Spartans, because they were an entirely different animal.
As for hoplite, by definition, I guess you are right, because those that were actually hoplites were the heavy infantry of Greece. I guess I am talking about the general soldier, who was at the front lines with a spear and a light shield. I still don't believe that every army would be able to afford ALL 3rd level fighters to fill their ranks.
That is my argument for either a trait or 1st level ability that allows for one handed usage of a spear or long spear... By description of the Spear in the CRB, it is only about 5 or 6 ft long, meaning that the typical dori was a long spear, standing at 8 to 9 ft long.
I didn't mean to demean the hoplite, or imply that they weren't well trained. Any PC class even a 1st level Fighter is well trained, and I believe reflects the training that you describe. Thanks for correcting my mis-statement.
I figured you knew, but that others might not. I don't disagree with you about it being needed at first level -- personally I think it would be a good feat. That's how I have it in my game.
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I am thinking of having as a feat like the 1st level ability on my Hoplite archetype, for the non full BAB classes that want to be able to fight like that, and the trait for the full BAB/non fighters.
I wish I could play in your game (assuming that you are running a Greek-style setting) R_Chance, I have been aching to play New Argonauts translated to PFRPG for a while...
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IMC:
The Longspear is 2H/Simple, or 1H/Exotic (min Str 13, Dex 13, BAB+1).
The (normal) Spear is 2H/Simple, or 1H/Martial.
The Shortspear is 1H/Simple.
I think I am not alone in this.
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The longspear works in a battle formation, but not in so well in single combat, not wielded in one hand anyway.
If you poke at me with a long stick and miss or fail to penetrate my armor I can easily get inside someone's reach. If you are in a tight battle formation I have to contend with several sticks(spears), and shields. Some weapons don't work as well in single combat as they do in a tight formation and vice versa.
PS:I doubt that is the reason the longspear is a 2-handed weapon though. More than likely the people that make/made the game are not weapon or armor experts, and that is why a few weapons have been called out as being inaccurate.
The buckler comes to mind. Another reason is that it makes the game simple. Certain armor is better against certain weapons in real life, and to put all of that in the game would make it more complex than it already is.
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Wraith, I understand your point, and agree completely with you about the simplification of weapons and armor.
Using a longspear one handed would not grant you the reach (as I noted in my archetype) since you are basically holding the spear at mid-shaft to take advantage of the balance and overcome the torque from the length.
I added that they can access the reach property at 11th, sort of thinking about the whole Achilles/Hector fight when Achilles had a couple of swings with the spear (granted it was not a longspear) taking it all the way to the end of the haft.
I think part of it is simplification down to just 3 categories of spear. So the descriptions are very general.
There were a multitude of flexible or rigid shafts, long and heavy to short and light heads, and thickness of the shaft.
All the game is using to describe the difference is length.
I have no problem saying, ok this country uses a slightly different 'short spear' it is a bit longer but has a lighter head and thinner shaft so it can still be effectively wielded in one hand with minimal training.
I would also allow a feat to use the normal spear one handed. Not sure if I would accept it as just a martial proficiency. Maybe a regional trait as someone else suggested.
I do not think I allow even a feat to give the long spear as a 1 handed weapon. Since there are only the 3 categories. The long spear has to include those truly monsterous poles the Europeans used that had to be braced on the ground for the wielder to even get the point in the right area.
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Something I have done is allow people to take the exotic weapon proficiency to handle changing a simple or martial weapon in one of the following ways:
1. Handiness (moving it up or down one category).
2. Damage increased by a step.
3. Critical range increased by a step (maximum 18-20 critical range).
4. Improve the critical multiplier by 1.
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I would prefer not to have to create a new class/archetype/weapon rules everytime somebody complains something is not possible in PF that is possible in real life.
The phalanx fighter isn't bad, but it's not very good from an optimization standpoint. I think they lose weapon training, which is really big. Also, they can't use tower shields more effectively. Although Greeks didn't use tower shields, I think the level of protection and use fits tower shields rather than heavy shields.
I would prefer not to have to create a new class/archetype/weapon rules everytime somebody complains something is not possible in PF that is possible in real life.
The phalanx fighter isn't bad, but it's not very good from an optimization standpoint. I think they lose weapon training, which is really big. Also, they can't use tower shields more effectively. Although Greeks didn't use tower shields, I think the level of protection and use fits tower shields rather than heavy shields.
Um... but he can: He can use a two handed reach weapon with a shield (tower or otherwise) and he reduces the penalties on attacking while using a tower shield.
halanx Fighting (Ex)
At 3rd level, when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon.
This ability replaces Armor Training 1.
Deft Shield (Ex)
At 7th level, the armor check penalty from a shield and the attack roll penalty are reduced by –1 for a phalanx soldier using a tower shield. At 11th level, these penalties are reduced by –2.
This ability replaces Armor Training 2 and 3.
At 9th level, when a phalanx fighter is using a heavy or tower shield, he can, as a move action, provide partial cover (+2 cover bonus to AC, +1 bonus on Reflex saves) to himself and all adjacent allies until the beginning of his next turn.
At 13th level, he can instead provide cover (+4 cover bonus to AC, +2 bonus on Reflex saves) and evasion (as a rogue) to one adjacent ally until the beginning of his next turn. This cover does not allow Stealth checks.
At 17th level, he can provide cover to himself and all adjacent allies, or he can provide improved cover (+8 cover bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves, improved evasion)to a single adjacent ally.
This ability replaces Weapon Training 2, 3, and 4.
Irresistible Advance (Ex)
At 15th level, a phalanx fighter gains a bonus on bull rush and overrun CMB checks. This bonus depends on the type of shield used: +1 with a buckler, +2 with a light shield, +3 with a heavy shield, or +4 with a tower shield.
This ability replaces Armor Training 4.
I mean argue the abilities are late or not enough, but don't say they don't exist.
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I would prefer not to have to create a new class/archetype/weapon rules everytime somebody complains something is not possible in PF that is possible in real life.
The phalanx fighter isn't bad, but it's not very good from an optimization standpoint. I think they lose weapon training, which is really big. Also, they can't use tower shields more effectively. Although Greeks didn't use tower shields, I think the level of protection and use fits tower shields rather than heavy shields.
Um... but he can: He can use a two handed reach weapon with a shield (tower or otherwise) and he reduces the penalties on attacking while using a tower shield.
halanx Fighting (Ex)
At 3rd level, when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon.
This ability replaces Armor Training 1.
Deft Shield (Ex)
At 7th level, the armor check penalty from a shield and the attack roll penalty are reduced by –1 for a phalanx soldier using a tower shield. At 11th level, these penalties are reduced by –2.
This ability replaces Armor Training 2 and 3.
At 9th level, when a phalanx fighter is using a heavy or tower shield, he can, as a move action, provide partial cover (+2 cover bonus to AC, +1 bonus on Reflex saves) to himself and all adjacent allies until the beginning of his next turn.
At 13th level, he can instead provide cover (+4 cover bonus to AC, +2 bonus on Reflex saves) and evasion (as a rogue) to one adjacent ally until the beginning of his next turn. This cover does not allow Stealth checks.
At 17th level, he can provide cover to himself and all adjacent allies, or he can provide improved cover (+8 cover bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves, improved evasion)to a single adjacent ally.
This ability replaces Weapon Training 2, 3, and 4.
...Irresistible Advance (Ex)
At 15th level, a phalanx fighter gains a bonus on bull rush and overrun CMB checks. This bonus depends on the type
Can't shield bash with a tower, and the archetype doesn't change that.
I'm not a big fan of losing weapon training, although I love immediate action set to receive a charge.
Losing shield bash isn't the same as, "can't use tower shields more effectively" which was the part I was protesting, as they are more effective than others with tower shields.
Though I don't think it would hurt to allow them to do such personally.
Something I have done is allow people to take the exotic weapon proficiency to handle changing a simple or martial weapon in one of the following ways:
1. Handiness (moving it up or down one category).
2. Damage increased by a step.
3. Critical range increased by a step (maximum 18-20 critical range).
4. Improve the critical multiplier by 1.
I like this.
My take would be to make the hoplon (or aspis) an exotic "weapon" without the feat it acts as a large shield with the feat it can be used as a tower shield.
I would also institute the Doru as a martial weapon a one handed spear that does 1D8. Is not designed to be thrown. (I would also use those stats for something like the Saxon spears used in a shield wall)
The long spear is more like the Sarissa of the later Hellenistic - Macedonian Phalanx it was traditionally used 2 handed and the Phalangite also carried a small shield called pelta.
Armour wise most of the later classical Hoplites wore a linen cuirass called a linothorax (This type of armour has yet to be modelled well in FRPGs), I would make it at least as good as studded leather but lighter or one step higher.
Socially: If I was basing a civilisation off the Classical Greek model... I would have your class and city dictate your the free cultural weapon proficiency.
Poor Athenian - would getting a bonus to swim and sailor as a class prof.
Poor Theban - Would get javelin and martial sling
Middle class Athenian - Doru and maybe hoplon if I was feeling generous.
Upper-class Athenian - would be a choice between ships officer type skills or cavalry type skills.