So my group is a cautious group of 4-6 heavily min/maxed players who are between levels 6 and 9. They don't like to go into things without being prepared and full of spells. This leads often to the following scenario when a moderate size combat encounter is over....
PC 1) "I'm down 1/3 my spells"
PC 2) "What time of day is it"
Me ) Its about 10am.
PC 1) I say we rest until tomorrow.
I've done a few things to try and prevent this, NPC imposed time limits, environmentally imposed time limits, mobs that keep spawning and making random encounters just as if not more dangerous than what they encounter while exploring.
Any other GM's have some advice to help break the party of this habit.
Time limits for goals.
"the world is going to end in a week. We must get to (insert place) and stop (insert BBEG) before that happens!"
Ambush their camp, have them not reach the princess in time, chase them.
Personally I don't like groups with that large of level spread and I think it may be having the effect of making everyone more conservative to keep the lower levels alive.
Actually I haven't had something too big for them to handle chase them yet. That's another method to add to the list.
So my group is a cautious group of 4-6 heavily min/maxed players who are between levels 6 and 9. They don't like to go into things without being prepared and full of spells. This leads often to the following scenario when a moderate size combat encounter is over....
PC 1) "I'm down 1/3 my spells"
PC 2) "What time of day is it"
Me ) Its about 10am.
PC 1) I say we rest until tomorrow.I've done a few things to try and prevent this, NPC imposed time limits, environmentally imposed time limits, mobs that keep spawning and making random encounters just as if not more dangerous than what they encounter while exploring.
Any other GM's have some advice to help break the party of this habit.
Our DM has prevented this sort of thing by sending our party into an environment where staying in one place is infinitely more dangerous than being a moving target. We're a (mostly?) good-aligned party on a journey through the Hells, so if we stay in one place, even with a variety of magical concealments, the risk of discovery and defeat is far greater than if we move quickly toward our goal.
(I'm not sure our party would be terribly inclined toward turtling anyway, but it's definitely out of the question under the circumstances we're in.)
I've done things like sending them into a big dungeon that may take multiple sessions and saying "It's too dangerous to rest here". It might take 5 game sessions, but only 1 day of game time.
Make it clear in game and out of game, if they blow their wad, they wont get to rest at 10AM. Prepare additional 'random' encounters. If the plop down after one or two encounters, hit them at their camp a couple times in the night. You probably also want to favor wilderness advnetures that travel long distances so they cant just return to a safe home base.
But most of all, talk to you players. Say, hey the game isn't meant for you to do this, if you continue I am going to have to force you to start, but rather then a dm vs player situation, why dont we sit down and talk about how party resources ought to be managed.
Hmm, sounds like you've tried a number of different things already regarding time limits and random monster spawning already. How have these been working for you so far?
A few suggestions that may or may not work for your group, depending on how the strategies you've been using already have been working so far. One approach that's often forgotten is to offer explicit rewards for keeping up the pace. Like catching your villains off guard if your players manage their time well, or fleeing enemies with valuable treasure the players seek. Time limits don't have to be about punishments or ruining the mission entirely if they take too long. Sometimes you want to motivate them with the least amount of outside pressure possible so that they get more used to moving ahead as its own intrinsic reward.
If the slowness of the game is getting to you, talking with them may be the most direct solution. Sounds like there may be mismatch between what you expect and your players expect.
Have them fail a mission (with negative consequensces) because they waited too long.
You finally made it to the end of the dungeon. The body of the princess is cold on the floor. The prepetrators have long fled. You're not sure exactly how the Duke will react when he finds out you gave them 3 days to kill her and get away.
After the Duke has his screaming fit. He declares the only way he will let the company survive is if they drag the perpetrators back alive to face him.
Now they have made their benfactor mad and the job is tougher.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Here's a technique I use that typically works:
If the group keeps attempting the 15 minute adventuring day tactic, have them face a group of monsters that work for another person/creature (someone who can scry on them, or quickly communicate with their minions). This person/creature becomes the party's nemesis - you'll have to create him and develop his motivations, but whatever you decide, his goal is to make life miserable for the PCs.
After a few of these encounters, the party's nemesis catches on to their tactics, and sends waves of enemies at them to attack when they try to rest, hoping to catch them with their guard down.
Vary the encounters, too. Some direct attacks, some attempts at theft while the party is sleeping, some indirect distractions (nothing overt, but enough noises and other unsettling disturbances around the camp to prevent effective rest from occurring or (and this is my favorite) lure the PCs into a trap with a cry for help just outside their campfire light.
After the party starts preparing for these interruptions, give them a couple rests where nothing happens. Then, bring them back at your discretion.
This technique does a few things (all positive, in my view):
- The party becomes more alert to threats and actually plans watches during downtime, and makes sure they don't go nova after every battle as they anticipate the secondary strike.
- The party gains a recurring villain, which helps advance the plot, and promotes role-playing. You may see your players start forming a genuine hatred for this nemesis if you plan it out correctly.
- The DM can try new encounter types and/or new monsters without worrying about how they fit into an Adventure Path or module - these basically replace random encounters and effectively provide a sub-plot from which you can insert side-treks if you need your party to level up again before hitting the next part of a campaign.
These techniques have worked for me in the past, and actually tend to be talked about in regularity in our current games.
Hope this helps!
Here's a technique I use that typically works:
If the group keeps attempting the 15 minute adventuring day tactic, have them face a group of monsters that work for another person/creature (someone who can scry on them, or quickly communicate with their minions). This person/creature becomes the party's nemesis - you'll have to create him and develop his motivations, but whatever you decide, his goal is to make life miserable for the PCs.
After a few of these encounters, the party's nemesis catches on to their tactics, and sends waves of enemies at them to attack when they try to rest, hoping to catch them with their guard down.
...
and makes sure they don't go nova after every battle as they anticipate the secondary strike....
This seems like it make the situation worse.
"Good lord, if we are going to be attacked every time we rest that means I need to have about half my resources left at rest time in stead of 1/4 because there will always be at least 1 more 'surprise' fight."
My three primary pieces of advice are based in three different areas: roleplay & personal/character motivation, location, and the reality and unpredictability of a living world.
Are the characters well fleshed out with personal goals, passions etc.? If they are lackadaisical about following up on medium priority stuff, but the sort of stuff they are personally motivated on and miss out, if not for good, then at least for the foreseeable future they may get the message. Sometimes there are no second chances, sometimes taking a day means a friend or at risk civilian dies, an enemy gets away without a trace etc. Be reasonable about time limits, but don't be afraid to be realistic in some cases.
Also, dungeon crawls (or their equivalent) with a goal that forces extended time in a specific locale and multiple encounters can help fight the 15 minute workday.
Then, add in random encounters, and in some cases planned mobile encounters based on not just the present plot but the PCs place in the world (an assassin out to kill one of them, a thief out to steal a notable items one of them obtained on a previous adventure, a ghost that is haunting one of them etc.).
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Here's a technique I use that typically works:
If the group keeps attempting the 15 minute adventuring day tactic, have them face a group of monsters that work for another person/creature (someone who can scry on them, or quickly communicate with their minions). This person/creature becomes the party's nemesis - you'll have to create him and develop his motivations, but whatever you decide, his goal is to make life miserable for the PCs.
After a few of these encounters, the party's nemesis catches on to their tactics, and sends waves of enemies at them to attack when they try to rest, hoping to catch them with their guard down.
...
and makes sure they don't go nova after every battle as they anticipate the secondary strike....This seems like it make the situation worse.
"Good lord, if we are going to be attacked every time we rest that means I need to have about half my resources left at rest time in stead of 1/4 because there will always be at least 1 more 'surprise' fight."
That's why you have to wean them off of it. If you read the rest of my post, I state to give the party a couple rests where nothing happens, and bring them back at your discretion.
Usually it only takes a couple times before the players get your point, and they'll stop the 15 minute adventuring day on their own. You can then strategically place your encounters with the party nemesis as needed based on the campaign, or bring them back if the party reverts to the 15 minute adventuring day. If you handle it well, they blame the NPC for their situation, not the DM.
Like anything else in this game, the DM has to gauge what his/her players can or cannot handle. If your players won't react well to this technique, or you as DM don't think you'll be able to present it effectively, don't use it. Simple as that. This works for me, but YMMV.
Hmm, sounds like you've tried a number of different things already regarding time limits and random monster spawning already. How have these been working for you so far?
*snip*
Sometimes you want to motivate them with the least amount of outside pressure possible so that they get more used to moving ahead as its own intrinsic reward.
The things I've tried have all worked when i put them in place, just looking for new things to spice it up. I had them mostly on the move in my sandbox, but then we did the
I don't really want to do the outside the game 'don't sleep all the time', its a sandbox and in my view, its my job to provide a world where if they wanted they could take a week off and vacation at a lake if they wanted to accept the consequences. My biggest problem is that I'm finding it difficult creating combat encounters that are exciting when the party is always at 100% strength.
One other thing I've done that I didn't mention was poison/disease/curses with attribute/level damage in encounters that surpassed their ability to heal.
This seems like it make the situation worse.
"Good lord, if we are going to be attacked every time we rest that means I need to have about half my resources left at rest time in stead of 1/4 because there will always be at least 1 more 'surprise' fight."
Actually that makes me think... I wonder if i make many smaller CR encounters that they can just tromp through, if they'd start relaxing more. Haven't tried that yet, that's another one to add to the list.
Don't make the time limits always obvious. Knowing you have three days to save the Dragon from the Evil Princess is a classic. But if they don't know when the deadline is, they have to rush.
Have penalties for being too slow.
I once created a rival group of adventurers. If the players didn't make good time they would get there to find the quest had been completed by the rival group.
I don't really want to do the outside the game 'don't sleep all the time', its a sandbox and in my view, its my job to provide a world where if they wanted they could take a week off and vacation at a lake if they wanted to accept the consequences. My biggest problem is that I'm finding it difficult creating combat encounters that are exciting when the party is always at 100% strength.One other thing I've done that I didn't mention was poison/disease/curses with attribute/level damage in encounters that surpassed their ability to heal.
This isnt a story problem or a mechanical problem, its a play style problem. The 15 minute workday is a very real problem, something even game designers addressed but has not completely removed. To think you can remove it from your game with simple story tweaks is foolish. All you end up with is players who think you are hounding them as the dm and it builds resentment. It is your job to provide a game world sure, but you cant put all the pressure on you to make the game work, that has to come from everyone. A conversation person to person will play a big part in that, and will go alot further to fix the problem.
If you insist on not talking to them, the thing you should do is give yourself time to consider consequences. The biggest problem for dms in this situation is you cant immediately sort out what the concequences are or how to handle them. My recomendation to you, is every time the players rest, stop the session. Either completely, or for a half hour to an hour so you can sit down and think about what SHOULD happen because the players are not chasing down the bad guy, or stoping the evil marauding army.
...That's why you have to wean them off of it. If you read the rest of my post, I state to give the party a couple rests where nothing happens, and bring them back at your discretion.
Usually it only takes a couple times before the players get your point, and they'll stop the 15 minute adventuring day on their own. You can then strategically place your encounters with the party nemesis as needed based on the campaign, or bring them back if the party reverts to the 15 minute adventuring day. If you handle it well, they blame the NPC for their situation, not the DM.
Like anything else in this game, the DM has to gauge what his/her players can or cannot handle. If your players won't react well to this technique, or you as DM don't think you'll be able to present it effectively, don't use it. Simple as that. This works for me, but YMMV.
I did read it, but I didn't get that out of it. Not sure it would work that way with my group, but it is worth giving a try.
You may want to ask them why they feel the need to rest with so few daily resources used up. Maybe you have been doing something that is making them hyper-cautious? I know that the groups I play with would gladly keep going in such a situation.
This isnt a story problem or a mechanical problem, its a play style problem.
This. Anything else starts to drift into passive aggressive territory. "Play my way or I will penalize you!"
If you talk to your players and explain that this is creating a problem for you, then you can open a discussion on why they are doing it. From there, all of you can work on a solution that everyone is happy with instead of trying to kick them back into your own particular sandbox when they get 'out of line'.
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Well, the level spread might have something to do with it. It is just a guess, and I think it's neat you're trying to accommodate different level ranges like that.
That said, I have to agree with those calling for polite discussion out of the game. You have already tried reasonable in-game nudging. Anything beyond that is probably stepping out of the line of 'subtle efforts without breaking story immersion' and into 'being heavy-handed through game mechanics.'
Sitting down with the group and trying to understand their concerns while presenting your own will probably arrive at some kind of good conclusion for everyone involved. Yes, it means stepping out of the story for a bit, breaking immersion... but in this case it's probably the most efficient way to go about it; it is far less likely there will be any hard feelings over this. It's hard to say "My GM railroads us!" when the GM is being calm, courteous, and open to a two-way dialog where each side has input.
At any rate, good luck sorting this out. Sounds like you have a decent group if over-caution is the worst thing they're doing, and I hope everything gets fixed.
Have them start an encounter. Midway through the encounter, when they feel like they're in control and it's just a matter of mopping up, have a patrol walk in on them and join the fight from behind. Make them feel like stopping is likely to draw more patrols. Let them know that they hear footsteps or even quiet conversation.
This tactic works well when you start it small and build up. APL 7 group? The first encounter is a trivial CR 5, while the patrol ramps up the CR to 6. If they rest, bump the CR up by 1. After all, when Cultist Patrol 3 doesn't report in, it's going to make sense that CP2 and CP1 are going to requisition more bodies.
Honestly, one of the biggest problems with the 15 minute work day is that Rope Trick is SOOOOOOOOOOO easy to get and it is the gateway drug. If they aren't using RT, it's easy enough to catch them relatively unaware while they're sleeping.
Also, Bulette.
"Your character tosses and turns, but can't seem to get to sleep. Perhaps it's because he just woke up 3 hours ago, it's bright, and animals are making all kinds of distracting noises. Would you like to roll a Wisdom check to see if your character believes whether he can or cannot fall asleep under these circumstances?"
"Your character tosses and turns, but can't seem to get to sleep. Perhaps it's because he just woke up 3 hours ago, it's bright, and animals are making all kinds of distracting noises. Would you like to roll a Wisdom check to see if your character believes whether he can or cannot fall asleep under these circumstances?"
The problem there being that it's a matter of rest, not sleep. Also, that means that they'll just camp out until it's dark and quiet.