The art quality!
I really appreciate the look of the books, the layouts, the designs. It's a real pleasure to hold and use.
I love it!
I absolutely concur with this. I love the artwork too.
I like that the books are actually sizable for the price.
Aside from the barbarian's sword (core book) I have liked all of the art.
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Yea, and verily!
As a professional artist, I absolutely agree. I remember in 3.5, the art grew to be of varying quality, at best, and often had a very over the top fantasy style. Few things in gaming upset me more than poor art. I will never forget when the carrion crawler was illustrated incorrectly, and in the revised edition, rather than change the art, they changed the monster description. There's no excuse for things like that.
But, Paizo has a stable of really great artists, and I love that almost everything they ever do is believable and good looking. (with the possible exclusion of the aforementioned barbarian's blade).
I'm proud to say that I am currently illustrating for the soon to be released Wayfinder #7. I count myself amongst a fine cadre of fellow artists.
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While I like a lot about The products, I have a few questions:
1. Why in the world do player almost always require, dealing with very evil groups in adventures. I at first liked that some encounters had that as an option. Now my players find it as bad as being captured.
2. Some of the choices of the mini being produced.
1. Red dragon, other companies have done the red dragon to death.
While some for these are rare and costly, many are very cheaply and frankly look a lot better.
2. Rare villains that a singular. These would be much better product in special pack for various modules or series, like HeroClix.
3. alternate painted figures in the same set.
3. And Having content repeated in other products.
It may sound harsh but, I really like most of the products, and these things are bugging me more and more.
I'm probably in the minority, but I've never been a fan of the art style throughout Pathfinder and most of the 3.X stuff. Having grown up on the art of Jeff Easley and the like with AD&D, I have a real fondness for that style, which feels more realistic and in tune with how I imagine a fantasy setting (granted, the way I imagine people dress in a fantasy setting is probably tied directly to this art style being my introduction). To me, the more recent stuff has always seemed more cartoonish and almost anime-like in some of it's proportions and style. It's not that it's bad, it's just not my cup of tea.
Flipping through my 2nd edition PHB, I see images like This and This. Contrast the Pathfinder Red Dragon to the dragon in the second picture I linked, and you'll see the stylistic difference I mean. However, some of the black and white images don't quite fit the same standard, and the depictions of the different races aren't always in agreement. On top of that, the monster manual illustrations never seemed to fit with the rest of the art. So I can appreciate the consistency of the art style and quality present throughout Pathfinder.
What kills me about Jeff Easley's art is how all the halflings, dwarves, elves etc. rock awesome 80's hairdos. I love it!
Art, production value, the customer service, active employee presence on the threads, plus other intangible elements
All of this!
Having grown up on the art of Jeff Easley and the like with AD&D, I have a real fondness for that style, which feels more realistic and in tune with how I imagine a fantasy setting.
He is who I grew up with as well and I feel the same way, but those are some big shoes to fill. I can still appreciate them separately. What helps my appreciation of the pf art style is that I played 4th edition for some time before taking up pathfinder. :)
While I like a lot about The products, I have a few questions:
1. Why in the world do player almost always require, dealing with very evil groups in adventures. I at first liked that some encounters had that as an option. Now my players find it as bad as being captured.
I imagine that's a stylistic thing--and I think that's common beyond Pathfinder. A lot of groups expect that. And if the group is very evil, it's always good to find a motivator to fight them -- from they're doing something wrong and you feel the right thing to do is stop you to they're invading your turf or have taken something you feel is rightly yours, etc.
They have to design an adventure that most groups can find a motivator to keep wanting to face the big bads, and "they're really bad people" is a pretty solid motivator.
You can always incorporate in your own twists. Besides, while I admit to not having read many APs, it is my understanding a lot of them do have gray morality twists.
And I am currently receiving Skull and Shackles which while sure, many of your enemies are evil, you are also playing pirates and expected to raid the innocent and loot and plunder and enslave. I never thought I'd read the clause, "If the party has slaves to sell..." in an RPG adventure--at least an RPG like Pathfinder--but there it is...
2. Some of the choices of the mini being produced.
Generally speaking I'd go into the forums and read some of the posts by both Paizo, Reaper, and WizKids reps. They've provided a lot of insights into that if you look around (but, with all due respect, I'm not going to do the work for you. If you're really curious, have a good poke around the forums).
1. Red dragon, other companies have done the red dragon to death. While some for these are rare and costly, many are very cheaplyand frankly look a lot better.
My guess is because it's based on recognizable and iconic artwork from the core rulebook cover. It's not a red dragon, it's the Pathfinder dragon. It may not be to your personal aesthetic and you may have hoped to see something else in its place, but it is what it is.
2. Rare villains that a singular. These would be much better product in special pack for various modules or series, like HeroClix.
I don't buy Pathfinder Battles minis but I know I just saw singles boxes at the FLGS the other day... I'd be surprised if they didn't have those. If not, maybe post the suggestion to the Pathfinder miniatures forum (not the general miniature's forum).
3. alternate painted figures in the same set.
Just a guess, but I imagine that would be too costly for a relatively young line. I suggest in the meantime finding a friend who likes to paint to make variants for you.
3. And Having content repeated in other products.
They do that? I've never seen it. But I do not buy every item in the Pathfinder line, mostly just the rulebooks and the occasional companion (and for once, the current Adventure Path). I can say if there is an IMPORTANT or extremely useful rule and it was originally published in a setting book not everyone might see, I can see how they might repeat the rule later to make sure everyone is sure to be able to access it. That's actually a practice I'd encourage, personally (as long as the repeated rule doesn't take up more than a page or so at most).
We gamers all have very individual tastes and needs, and were a publisher to try to cater to one, they'd likely alienate another vast group. I think Paizo does a pretty good job balancing the products to have a broad appeal without quality loss, for the most part.
Now, I certainly have my own gripes about the products I've purchased (I occasionally have to suppress the urge to mark up all the errors in some of the rulebooks with blue pencil--or red pen, for that matter, complete with "see me after class" tagged to the front--and ship it back to Paizo). And they publish a lot of stuff that I frankly have no interest in, or make a design decision I don't understand. But I know I'm not their only customer, nor a typical one at that.
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I can still appreciate them separately. What helps my appreciation of the pf art style is that I played 4th edition for some time before taking up pathfinder. :)
yeah, Wayne Reynolds did a lot of art for 4e as well (for 3.5 as well) so I can see how having experienced it in 4e books got you used to it in PF. Me personally am not that big a fan, it seems a bit cartoony - when I look at the 4e Dark Sun Campaign Setting cover art it just doesn't evoke the same wonder in me that the 2e Brom art does.
2. Some of the choices of the mini being produced.
1. Red dragon, other companies have done the red dragon to death.
While some for these are rare and costly, many are very cheaply and frankly look a lot better.
This next set of minis is based on Rise of the Runelords, so they're going to be somewhat specific to that AP. A red dragon apparently features prominently enough for them to produce it, and dragon minis are always popular.
You also have to consider that the Pathfinder Battles minis are their own product. To some extent, it really doesn't matter what other companies have produced, because those are no longer for sale.
Further, as far as pre-painted red dragon minis go for, D&D Miniatures made 5 of them that you can "easily" obtain in a singles format (excluding the one with the rider, and excluding the one from the collector's set).
Two of those are large, two of those are huge, and one is colossal.
Excluding the huges and the colossal (since we're comparing against the large red dragon being released in the Pathfinder set), you're looking at $20-ish on the bottom end for either of the D&D Miniatures ones, and there aren't really a ton of them out there.
2. Rare villains that a singular. These would be much better product in special pack for various modules or series, like HeroClix.
That's kinda what they're doing - this is the Rise of the Runelords set. Conceivably, a future set could be for Curse of the Crimson Throne, and feature villains unique to it.
3. alternate painted figures in the same set.
No thank you.
One of the common complaints about D&D Miniatures was the common use of repaints in future sets. It was bad enough then, it'd be horrendous to find repaints in the same set.
3. And Having content repeated in other products.
Can you expound upon this? I know that there's a bit, but what I've seen isn't overkill, and there's a valid reason for it being done, depending on the product (such as early AP monsters being reproduced in Bestiary collections, and what not).
There's definitely not a wholesale cut-and-paste of huge quantities of content being used as padding/filler.
I love everything about Paizo. I don't buy every product they put out, but every product I have of theirs I love. For the most part, the community they foster is great, and I particularly like that they do NOT cater to any one group.
Gets rid of the whole "squeaky wheel gets the grease" mentality that you see in other places, like WoW. You still have the really vocal groups, but Paizo doesn't make any apologies for their design decisions and they stand by them. They have some backbone. :D
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LOL. My wife told me that if I drew her character like the ones in the book she would kill me. I like the art, but the string bikini wearing super chicks has a certain "non-realistic" feel to it. LOL. I recall Basic (before it was Basic) D&D with the "chain bikini fighter." Ah memories... Have we artfully come full circle?
LOL. My wife told me that if I drew her character like the ones in the book she would kill me. I like the art, but the string bikini wearing super chicks has a certain "non-realistic" feel to it. LOL. I recall Basic (before it was Basic) D&D with the "chain bikini fighter." Ah memories... Have we artfully come full circle?
Amiri probably has the skimpiest armor among iconics, everyone else has completely reasonable armor sets or no pretense of armor whatsoever.
I just find it funny that people comment on fantasy art when you can go to any Wal*Mart in America and see more skin than any (non-ero) fantasy book would dare to show. I am frequently bewildered by what women will wear in public -- sometimes it borders indecent exposure!
But don't have it in print!
Disclaimer: I lean towards the side who would rather have women with appropriate dress standards in their art. I just wish REAL women would dress with more class. Fantasy art I could care less about.
LOL. My wife told me that if I drew her character like the ones in the book she would kill me. I like the art, but the string bikini wearing super chicks has a certain "non-realistic" feel to it. LOL. I recall Basic (before it was Basic) D&D with the "chain bikini fighter." Ah memories... Have we artfully come full circle?
Yeah, the only two in the books that aren't covered are Amiri, who doesn't give a crap, she'll kill you anyway; and Seoni, who has no need for armor. Heck, even the witch is better covered than most other TTRPG women. I love how the Paladin (name forgotten), Gunslinger (same), cleric (yep), rogue (wow I'm bad at this), and even the ninja are all incredibly well drawn and awesome without the need for skimpy clothing. The paladin is probably my favorite drawn female character, very powerful and any evil guy should beware running into her.
LOL. My wife told me that if I drew her character like the ones in the book she would kill me. I like the art, but the string bikini wearing super chicks has a certain "non-realistic" feel to it. LOL. I recall Basic (before it was Basic) D&D with the "chain bikini fighter." Ah memories... Have we artfully come full circle?Yeah, the only two in the books that aren't covered are Amiri, who doesn't give a crap, she'll kill you anyway; and Seoni, who has no need for armor. Heck, even the witch is better covered than most other TTRPG women. I love how the Paladin (name forgotten), Gunslinger (same), cleric (yep), rogue (wow I'm bad at this), and even the ninja are all incredibly well drawn and awesome without the need for skimpy clothing. The paladin is probably my favorite drawn female character, very powerful and any evil guy should beware running into her.
Notice that the 3 ladies with otherwise impratical clothes for adventuring has endure elements in their spell list?
I am not saying it isn't fanservice, it just isn't gratitous, wallbanging, lets fill the plotholes with boobies, <insert angry rant about anime recent trend in anime>, fanservice.
Humbly,
Yawar
Wayne Reynolds ... Me personally am not that big a fan, it seems a bit cartoony - when I look at the 4e Dark Sun Campaign Setting cover art it just doesn't evoke the same wonder in me that the 2e Brom art does.
First things first. Brom is probably not only my all-time favorite D&D artist, but probably my all-time favorite fantasy artist. His art--and art is big for me in fantasy games--singlehandedly got me into Dark Sun, and I enjoyed the hell out of that campaign world.
So comparing anyone else to Brom, well, those are big shoes to fill.
As to WAR, I'm not slavishly addicted to his art like a lot of people, but I think he's peaked in recent years, and we're seeing him in his prime now, which is lucky for us. Some of his early work was hit and miss, but most everything he does nowadays I feel is excellent. His work on the various Iconics for Paizo is just beautiful stuff.
Back to the OP et al: I agree that the art, production values, etc. are what make me loyal to Paizo. Overall, given the large stable of artists they use, I find their art quality is very good to excellent.