Mostly they keep passing the (special needs) kids up a grade even though they shouldn't pass and haven't learned anything. If they're lucky there's a separate classroom for that.Any way we can avoid making statements like these, that, while unfortunately sometimes happen, are not how the system is designed. And not how it is run?You mean avoid painful truths? Its kind of my thing.
So no. Show me this isn't how its run if you don't want me saying it.
Sure there are plenty of problems that lead to passing students that shouldn't be and yes it's often the luck of the draw if you live in a good District or not -- but the system does not support passing kids who have not mastered their benchmarks.But the system keeps doing it anyway with startling regularity. While on paper this isn't supposed to happen, the reality is that it is standard operating procedure. I'm more interested in what is actually happening than what a piece of paper says is supposed to happen.
And, not in an attempt to start anything, my experience makes me think that a huge amount of the students who are passing despite not reaching benchmarks are a result of parent presure on the school.Quite likely thats a good chunk of it. But the cause doesn't change the phenomenon.
The textbook example of this that happens seemingly all the time is the K-5 child who is not ready for 1st grade (still not quite able to cut on a straight line, color inside the box, connect the dots, basic addition arithmatic, read at a K-5 level, etc.)I know i had a fair bit of trouble with a school district that confused manual dexterity and intelligence.
We don't have NEARLY enough info on the OP's child and the specific situation nor NEARLY enough info on the school and how it's run to give certain explanation of what's happening there.Someone from another country asked about how education worked in the US in general. In general, passing people up a grade is what happens.
Irontruth, did you look at his research into the origins and stated intent of our public education system? The ideas he espouses (and I'm not saying I agree with all of them) make a lot more sense when it is understood that the current system has a single, specific goal. Gatto isn't nearly as interesting when he talks about "how" as he is when he talks about "why".
Agreeing with his basic assumptions of why requires the acceptance of some sort of giant conspiracy that has been perpetrated and perpetuated by hundreds of thousands of people for over 100 years. I find that difficult to believe. It's easily supported by the argument that many of those people are products of that system, but that is a circular argument that relies on it being right in the first place. "Why" is a red herring that doesn't get us anywhere.
I do agree that our school system is largely the same as it was 120 years ago. I think it's a major reason why we've fallen behind where we were 60 years ago.
As for the brain science, some researches think that is an evolutionary adaptation that is largely responsible for human history. People into their mid-20's continue to want to branch out and deviate from their parents. They explore different ways of doing things, which is a major behavioral difference between us and neanderthals.
I think that we could improve how we teach teachers. The tools and systems we give them to use. A lot of the current system is old and outdated. Despite what Gatto gives as proof, there is a high level of innovation in this country, compared to say China. Culturally we do place some value on individuality, not as much as some other places, but more than others.
I've seen evidence from the health care system that I think applies. Doctors are highly educated professionals, but even they can make mistakes or be unaware of information. HMOs and PPOs actually showed with aggregate data how they were making both more expensive and less effective decisions. Overall, I don't think HMOs or PPOs aren't the solution for health care, but there is evidence that collecting system wide data is valuable to individual practitioners.
Professional teachers who benefit from this kind of data are going to be more effective educators than parents at home. Currently we have an old system that barely works. Homeschooling is proving to be just as good as our current system, but I think we can still do better.
I'll admit, most of my familiarity on the specifics of teaching only comes from my experience as a student. The only part I've vaguely studied is the subject of teaching history. My godfather gave me Lies My Teacher Told Me (himself a college business professor) at same time I was taking AP American History. The part that really got me was that the textbook I was using was one of the ones covered in the book.
One of the benefits I had was that we had a very enthusiastic teacher who liked using original sources, so we read a lot of historical documents in that class. We had to do a lot of short writing assignments on them which also influenced how I write to this day. I'm not great and could still use a lot of work, but I can still see the benefit from it 16 years later.
The Texas process for adopting textbooks is something that scares the bejesus out of me to this day. I think it is endemic of the problem, not just from a right or left perspective, though that scares me as well, but because they think they can change the truth by what is taught. Certain elements of a mass produced school system are unavoidable, the schedules, the array of subjects, but I think that things like critical thought can be taught.
We also need to stop treating schools like replacements for community involvement with children. Parents don't just need to be involved, they need to be involved with each other as well. It's not an exact model to look at, but the Swedish laws for parental time off to raise children could be something to study. There are cases of groups of parents coordinating their time to watch each others children, I'd be incredibly curious to see a study that looks at the effects this has on children.
The Texas process for adopting textbooks is something that scares the bejesus out of me to this day
Huh. You meant the illustration on page 320 isn't accurate?
Lies was very good. I think it pointed out that it wasn't a massive conspiracy, just an insane amount of laziness in recycling textbooks from the 50's.
There is a certain amount of willfulness though. The overt action isn't part of a conspiracy, but a fear of what the truth represents. It can't be true because of what it would say about us, type of thing.
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The Texas process for adopting textbooks is something that scares the bejesus out of me to this day
Huh. You meant the illustration on page 320 isn't accurate?Lies was very good. I think it pointed out that it wasn't a massive conspiracy, just an insane amount of laziness in recycling textbooks from the 50's.
Isn't that the Kingpriest of Ishtar?
Changes have been made on the small scale and produced good results. We have people who question the system all the time, you and I are doing it right now. I went to public schools, excluding one semester, quickly dropped out of college and joined the navy for 7 years.
The herd mentality isn't exclusive to public schooling. As a society we function in fairly large groups, from businesses to community organizations, when society gets this large and this crowded, we're going to group our kids up too. If it's a problem, it's a problem with our society as a whole, not just schools. How schools teach isn't the cause, it's a symptom.
Again, I'm not against re-examining every aspect of how kids are taught. I don't think his cause-effect relationship is as clear as he points it out to be.
Jesus is a cleric, we know have proof, I just want to know what level...that painting was really, really strange.
The Texas process for adopting textbooks is something that scares the bejesus out of me to this day
Huh. You meant the illustration on page 320 isn't accurate?Lies was very good. I think it pointed out that it wasn't a massive conspiracy, just an insane amount of laziness in recycling textbooks from the 50's.
Isn't that the Kingpriest of Ishtar?
I find the painting beautiful as a work of art, intriguing as a statement, and his explanations/defenses quite laughable for the most part, especially 2, 7 and 8.
The Texas process for adopting textbooks is something that scares the bejesus out of me to this dayHuh. You meant the illustration on page 320 isn't accurate?
Lies was very good. I think it pointed out that it wasn't a massive conspiracy, just an insane amount of laziness in recycling textbooks from the 50's.
Indeed, sloth is the deadliest of the sins.
I'd guess 13th with unique access to contingency.
Here, this will probably flip a couple of wigs.
I went to school throughout the 70s and graduated high school in 1982. It was in a very small town in north central Arkansas. There was a smoking area for the high school kids (grades 7 to 12) and no one thought twice about seeing rifles and shotguns hanging in gun racks in pickup truck windows in the parking lots. We all carried pocket knives, even traded them openly. I can even remember one morning a kid who was a grade ahead of me bringing a deer to school that he'd shot on the way and being allowed to keep it in the cafeteria walk in freezer until the end of the day.
There were no school shootings, stabbings, bombings, or terroristic anything to worry about. Sure, there was the occasional bit of vandalism, but by and large the worst things were tampering with the timing of the bells that announced class changes or breaking in and stealing every paddle from every room and then spending the next day acting like total fools knowing that no one would "get licks".
I'd give anything for my son to have grown up in a world like that. One without fear of anything but Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev. And we knew that was never going to go anywhere, even then.
Here, this will probably flip a couple of wigs.
I went to school throughout the 70s and graduated high school in 1982. It was in a very small town in north central Arkansas. There was a smoking area for the high school kids (grades 7 to 12) and no one thought twice about seeing rifles and shotguns hanging in gun racks in pickup truck windows in the parking lots. We all carried pocket knives, even traded them openly. I can even remember one morning a kid who was a grade ahead of me bringing a deer to school that he'd shot on the way and being allowed to keep it in the cafeteria walk in freezer until the end of the day.
There were no school shootings, stabbings, bombings, or terroristic anything to worry about. Sure, there was the occasional bit of vandalism, but by and large the worst things were tampering with the timing of the bells that announced class changes or breaking in and stealing every paddle from every room and then spending the next day acting like total fools knowing that no one would "get licks".
I'd give anything for my son to have grown up in a world like that. One without fear of anything but Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev. And we knew that was never going to go anywhere, even then.
Weird. I don't think I'd be able to live in a world like that.
Doesn't California have different textbook editions. One good thing about ap classes is you get college textbooks.
Doesn't California have different textbook editions. One good thing about ap classes is you get college textbooks.
This wasn't true when I took AP classes (at least history classes) 16 years ago. I took enough classes that I entered college as a sophomore.
The only good part of AP history classes is the essay portion of the test. If they didn't have to teach writing, it would essentially have no value. The textbooks used are often blatantly wrong when compared to original source material, they whitewash the racial history of our country and try to breeze through anything recent and controversial.
The American Pageant is the most commonly used textbook for AP American History classes. It's the one I used as well, I even kept my copy. It's also critiqued by the book Lies My Teacher Told Me, a book I highly recommend. It's relatively brief, well written, well researched, has good examples, easy to read and gives some hypothesis as to causes and consequences and even goes into talking about possible solutions.
It isn't exhaustive, like Howard Zinn's books, which are also excellent. It's meant to be illustrative of the problem, not a complete retelling. I think Lies should be required reading for every adult in the US.
Mostly they keep passing the (special needs) kids up a grade even though they shouldn't pass and haven't learned anything. If they're lucky there's a separate classroom for that.Any way we can avoid making statements like these, that, while unfortunately sometimes happen, are not how the system is designed. And not how it is run?
Sure there are plenty of problems that lead to passing students that shouldn't be and yes it's often the luck of the draw if you live in a good District or not -- but the system does not support passing kids who have not mastered their benchmarks.
And, not in an attempt to start anything, my experience makes me think that a huge amount of the students who are passing despite not reaching benchmarks are a result of parent presure on the school.
The textbook example of this that happens seemingly all the time is the K-5 child who is not ready for 1st grade (still not quite able to cut on a straight line, color inside the box, connect the dots, basic addition arithmatic, read at a K-5 level, etc.) yet, despite the school's position that the child stay in K-5, the parents scream that the child WILL NOT FAIL KINDERGARTEN even if they have to enroll him or her in another school.
Either way -- school's fault or parents' -- this is a HUGELY complex dynamic of education that cannot be so easily or simply explained or concluded.
We don't have NEARLY enough info on the OP's child and the specific situation nor NEARLY enough info on the school and how it's run to give certain explanation of what's happening there.
I graduated HS with someone who couldn't read and a few who couldn't do simple arithmatic.
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Yes, it happens -- I once worked with a 3rd grade boy, teaching him to write the alphabet fluently (instead of merely sing it) and thus worked on literacy enough to write more than his name (which was all he could do). And this is one of the cases that was primarily the district's fault not the parent's.
Nonetheless, it is NOT how the system is run and though there are many Districts that have these kinds of cases, it is not the norm. A great many districts do very well throughout -- and a great many more districts do very well with only some exceptions of failures.
I guess it just stood out to me on the Boards here that comments were made (at the very least) implying that the whole system is screwed up and that all (or most) public schools and all (or most) kids in those schools are failing, especially those that have special needs.
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There was a girl in my HS who was somewhat mentally challenged, and aside from the "special" classes for the basic requirements, mostly took things like Home Ec. Her basic abilities in reading, mathematics, and the like were pretty much on a lower-elementary school level.
Meanwhile, I took every AP class my HS offered.
She graduated with a higher GPA than I did.
Tell me that's not completely screwed up.
Jesus is a cleric, we know have proof, I just want to know what level...that painting was really, really strange.
The painting is how conservatives see American history, and how American history is often presented in school. Its not history its a founding, united mythology.
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Here, this will probably flip a couple of wigs.
*and stuff*
Flips not a single wig, here. Not much changed in the area during my tenure [went to school in Boone County from 1990 - 1999]. Still had pocket knives, no metal detectors, gun racks were in trucks. Heck, those trucks were usually parked pretty far back, anyway, so you could get out first and get back into the woods after class. Many teachers didn't even mark you tardy during hunting season if you came in wearing cammo.
I went back after my stint in the Marines and looked into a career in teaching . . . so I'm a massage therapist, now. I empathize with my friends that stuck it out and are now teaching at our old high school. The way things have changed, though . . . I just can't get behind.
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She graduated with a higher GPA than I did.
She also has a different diploma than you.
And she has a considerably different transcript, er, "resume" for college.
So, NO, it's not at all screwed up. Sorry you can't see that.
There was a girl in my HS who was somewhat mentally challenged, and aside from the "special" classes for the basic requirements, mostly took things like Home Ec. Her basic abilities in reading, mathematics, and the like were pretty much on a lower-elementary school level.
Meanwhile, I took every AP class my HS offered.
She graduated with a higher GPA than I did.
Tell me that's not completely screwed up.
Did you ace every exam? Just because you did AP doesn't automatically equate to a 4.0 GPA. Besides, GPAs are laughable indicators of knowledge and achievement for the most part, the one person I know who had a near 4.0 did almost the same thing she did except she didn't have a learning disability, went the art history route and was the teacher's pet.
Flips not a single wig, here. Not much changed in the area during my tenure [went to school in Boone County from 1990 - 1999]. Still had pocket knives, no metal detectors, gun racks were in trucks. Heck, those trucks were usually parked pretty far back, anyway, so you could get out first and get back into the woods after class. Many teachers didn't even mark you tardy during hunting season if you came in wearing cammo.Here, this will probably flip a couple of wigs.
*and stuff*
That's just crazy.
Here, this will probably flip a couple of wigs.Nah, not really. It might flip your wig if you told that to someone else who was there and remembers it differently, of course.
No, I can assure you with all certainty that anyone in my age group who attended Cave City High School in Cave City, AR will attest to the truth of what I stated.
one of the biggest issues they deal with is not being able to actually do anything when children misbehave. There are apparently a billion ways they can be sued and fired.
Yup. I'm sure your kid is a prince at home, but the possibility remains that it's not the teacher's fault. The fault could lay at home, but probably the fault lies somewhere in the middle. These are complex situations and from what little I've seen of children and education precious few people want to take real responsibility and it becomes a cumulative effect where finger-pointing is easier than making tough calls and pissing off parents, kids, the legal system or teacher's unions.
I'm guessing everyone there was of a homogenous group then, judging by the stats on Wiki.
Man, is there a reason you're baggin' on my hometown? If you're referring to the racial makeup of the city during the 70s and early 80s, there were less than a dozen African American kids in the whole school from Kindergarten to Grade 12, and only two Hispanic kids. Sure, it's changed a lot from when I was there, but back then it was just another hick school in another hick town. The town's population was just over 1,100, with about that many in the entire school (the school district covered a very wide area) and the ethnic makeup was nearly overwhelmingly white.
Yup. I'm sure your kid is a prince at home, but the possibility remains that it's not the teacher's fault. The fault could lay at home, but probably the fault lies somewhere in the middle
Or the "problem" is he's an 8 year old little boy and he's SUPPOSED to be running around crazy like an 8 year old.
What in our evolutionary history would prepare a kid for sitting around most of the day doing nothing and listening to boring stuff?
Yes, I should have mentioned the homosexuals and atheists who probably lived in fear of being outcast from their hometown if anyone ever got wise to their secret.
I would know more, from your perspective. It is quite possible that there are two versions of this town
Did you ace every exam? Just because you did AP doesn't automatically equate to a 4.0 GPA. Besides, GPAs are laughable indicators of knowledge and achievement for the most part, the one person I know who had a near 4.0 did almost the same thing she did except she didn't have a learning disability, went the art history route and was the teacher's pet.There was a girl in my HS who was somewhat mentally challenged, and aside from the "special" classes for the basic requirements, mostly took things like Home Ec. Her basic abilities in reading, mathematics, and the like were pretty much on a lower-elementary school level.
Meanwhile, I took every AP class my HS offered.
She graduated with a higher GPA than I did.
Tell me that's not completely screwed up.
In my school, AP classes were given a 10% weight. So the kids getting 60s in them were counted as barely passing (a large number, the average was low 70s after weight). They had to take the same state final to pass as everyone else though, and the average for the AP class was in the 90s. Taking the AP class significantly hurt most student's average, but other than showing up as AP courses on the transcript had no noticiable effect on diploma or GPA. Students with learning disabilities were put into the same class rankings as everyone else. So, while there may have been something in the background as far as the school was concerned about their GPA, it sure was insulting to see the students who couldn't read put on the honors list.
What would you prefer be done with such individuals?
In my school, AP classes were given a 10% weight. So the kids getting 60s in them were counted as barely passing (a large number, the average was low 70s after weight). They had to take the same state final to pass as everyone else though, and the average for the AP class was in the 90s. Taking the AP class significantly hurt most student's average, but other than showing up as AP courses on the transcript had no noticiable effect on diploma or GPA. Students with learning disabilities were put into the same class rankings as everyone else. So, while there may have been something in the background as far as the school was concerned about their GPA, it sure was insulting to see the students who couldn't read put on the honors list.Did you ace every exam? Just because you did AP doesn't automatically equate to a 4.0 GPA. Besides, GPAs are laughable indicators of knowledge and achievement for the most part, the one person I know who had a near 4.0 did almost the same thing she did except she didn't have a learning disability, went the art history route and was the teacher's pet.There was a girl in my HS who was somewhat mentally challenged, and aside from the "special" classes for the basic requirements, mostly took things like Home Ec. Her basic abilities in reading, mathematics, and the like were pretty much on a lower-elementary school level.
Meanwhile, I took every AP class my HS offered.
She graduated with a higher GPA than I did.
Tell me that's not completely screwed up.
What would you prefer be done with such individuals?In my school, AP classes were given a 10% weight. So the kids getting 60s in them were counted as barely passing (a large number, the average was low 70s after weight). They had to take the same state final to pass as everyone else though, and the average for the AP class was in the 90s. Taking the AP class significantly hurt most student's average, but other than showing up as AP courses on the transcript had no noticiable effect on diploma or GPA. Students with learning disabilities were put into the same class rankings as everyone else. So, while there may have been something in the background as far as the school was concerned about their GPA, it sure was insulting to see the students who couldn't read put on the honors list.Did you ace every exam? Just because you did AP doesn't automatically equate to a 4.0 GPA. Besides, GPAs are laughable indicators of knowledge and achievement for the most part, the one person I know who had a near 4.0 did almost the same thing she did except she didn't have a learning disability, went the art history route and was the teacher's pet.There was a girl in my HS who was somewhat mentally challenged, and aside from the "special" classes for the basic requirements, mostly took things like Home Ec. Her basic abilities in reading, mathematics, and the like were pretty much on a lower-elementary school level.
Meanwhile, I took every AP class my HS offered.
She graduated with a higher GPA than I did.
Tell me that's not completely screwed up.
I see no reason why people who cannot meet educational standards be continued to be pushed through the education system. We currently believe we have the responcibility to attempt to educate people to the HS level. Not everyone can handle that level though, and it is a huge drain on resources to try to make them. Personally, I would rather see people left behind and stay at the levels they can handle. The practice of rubber stamping people through is a disgrace.
In my school, AP classes were given a 10% weight. So the kids getting 60s in them were counted as barely passing (a large number, the average was low 70s after weight). They had to take the same state final to pass as everyone else though, and the average for the AP class was in the 90s. Taking the AP class significantly hurt most student's average, but other than showing up as AP courses on the transcript had no noticiable effect on diploma or GPA. Students with learning disabilities were put into the same class rankings as everyone else. So, while there may have been something in the background as far as the school was concerned about their GPA, it sure was insulting to see the students who couldn't read put on the honors list.Did you ace every exam? Just because you did AP doesn't automatically equate to a 4.0 GPA. Besides, GPAs are laughable indicators of knowledge and achievement for the most part, the one person I know who had a near 4.0 did almost the same thing she did except she didn't have a learning disability, went the art history route and was the teacher's pet.There was a girl in my HS who was somewhat mentally challenged, and aside from the "special" classes for the basic requirements, mostly took things like Home Ec. Her basic abilities in reading, mathematics, and the like were pretty much on a lower-elementary school level.
Meanwhile, I took every AP class my HS offered.
She graduated with a higher GPA than I did.
Tell me that's not completely screwed up.
Not all students in special ed are like that there are rare exceptions that may even take honors and ap classes.
Indeed. I would encourage you to take another look at the people who graduated with you in honors despite learning issues. You may be doing them a disservice by stereotyping them.