Schools sure have changed...


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When I went to school, if you were bad, you were sent to the principal's office for a little while and sent home with a note. Now, the teachers call you at work and make you come and get them for minor infractions and bar children from their schools if they have to do this more than a few times in a while. I'm completely disgusted by how hands-off and lazy the teachers seem to be. My son is being sent home often for things that I can stop in him just by sitting him out. They come up with the most outrageous things to say. My son was having an issue running away from the teacher when he didn't want to do something, because he's four and that's what he does lately. I was called because that makes him a security threat. When he runs into a corner and says no. I was advised to call CPRI, an institute dealing with psychological issues (such as autism, ADHD, etc) for a chat and I asked the vice principal what exactly I was supposed to talk to them about. She didn't have much to say and tripped over her words. I mentioned that these issues are curbed at home by being stern and sitting him out. I realize that 20 children is a lot of children to look after, but if you don't have time for disciplining a child or the ability to do so, why are you a teacher? I just don't get it. I lost my last job because of the amount of times I was called out of work and had to spend at home with my son while he was sick or had 'misbehaved'. They told me that he was sick once and called me at work. To be fair, he had to be changed out of vomit-covered clothing. But he was fine when I got there. Happy and healthy and in another set of clothing. I still had to take him home. What happened to schools? It used to be IMPOSSIBLE to be sent home, unless you were REALLY bad or REALLY sick.


On the flip side if they didnt do this they could get sued (no tolerance BS). Blame our american culture.


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If your kid is sick and vomiting, they're gonna send him home. That was the same when I was in elementary and jhs, 25 years ago.


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"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."


The only time I threw up and didn't get sent home was because the person they called told them it was because I had ate more than one brownie the night before. Apparently being 13 and eating more than one brownie is the same as being 5 and eating more than one brownie.

Nothing like getting sick 8-12 hours later and having it blamed on the sweets. [/eye roll]


Celestine8 wrote:
My son was having an issue running away from the teacher when he didn't want to do something, BECAUSE HE'S FOUR and that's what he does lately... I lost MY LAST JOB because of the amount of times I was called out of work and had to spend at home with my son while he was sick or had 'misbehaved'.

I don't live in the U.S. so you may find my question a bit naive but... How long has he been going to school? How young do you guys send your children to school? Where's the "bringing up" part? Here in Canada, we start half-a-day at school at around 5 1/2 years old in kindergarden.

I'm not juging you or your system. I'm just trying to understand.

Ultradan


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Yah, from what I understand (having more than a few teachers in my family), one of the biggest issues they deal with is not being able to actually do anything when children misbehave. There are apparently a billion ways they can be sued and fired.

I'm 31, and I can remember a time when we got swats in school for misbehaving. None of the schools around where I live can get anywhere near this.

And the other thing they get frustrated about (the teachers in my family, that is) is -- as the OP said -- the student/teacher ratio. I hear of teachers with younger students who have bigger classes than 20. I don't know how I'd stay on top of that, either.

But maybe it's worse in the situation you're describing, OP. I don't envy your situation -- though I'll be there myself in a few short years. (My little boy is almost 2, and I'm told time flies.)


I live in Canada. He attended JK when he was three. They said that if his fourth birthday fell before the month of December, he was to go to school. He's going half-days. I was blown away, too, when I got the notice that my son was old enough to attend school. I spoke to them and was assured that this was the appropriate age to attend school. I've considered removing him from school. The time he was sent home sick, I get. I wish he had been actually ill instead of having choked on something, but hey. The time today and many others before, I don't/


Celestine8 wrote:
I live in Canada. He attended JK when he was three.

Three... I am officially floored.

Ultradan


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A lot of the "add" problem is the fact that administrators don't see a childs age, they just see a grade. All kindergartners should act the same, even though one born say march 3rd starts an entire year sooner than one born march 4th (or whenever the cutoff is). One will be expected to act like a first grader, the other one will be considered normal eating paste for a bit. It sounds like your son was near the minimum to be sent in.

I really wish they'd put a bit more thought into it, and have say 3 kindergarten classes and assign them by ability/age rather than picking names out of a hat.


Back when I was a kid, I walked to school up hill, both ways!

*Waves cane and grumbles in a old man voice*

Seriously though, this country has changed so much since I was a kid, I don't even recognize it.
I'd guess my parents felt the same way when they got older and the world looked like a different place.


Midnight Gamer wrote:

Seriously though, this country has changed so much since I was a kid, I don't even recognize it.

I'd guess my parents felt the same way when they got older and the world looked like a different place.

Yeah, and look how much smaller they made everything now.

I think its less that the world is more screwed up now and more than you're realizing how screwed up it is.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


I really wish they'd put a bit more thought into it, and have say 3 kindergarten classes and assign them by ability/age rather than picking names out of a hat.

The typical age range in a class is about three years, give or take, so that would be about right. You could promote the kids who are a bit further along but aren't the same age chronologically up into the next group. It would probably avoid most of the problems that come from promoting a kid a full year ahead.

But now you have to hire three times as many teachers and they're going to expect to eat. I don't know about Canada, but Americans only want to pay for quality stuff when it's their own kids or it's for blowing stuff up. I know some European countries have three tracks all the way through schooling (which presents its own set of problems, especially when it's extremely hard to switch tracks and hinges on make-or-break exams) but the model has its strengths too.


Samnell wrote:
But now you have to hire three times as many teachers and they're going to expect to eat.

Not really. Unless its a reaaaaly small town you usually have more than one teacher at each grade anyway, but each class gets some geniuses and some paste eaters.


Ultradan wrote:
Celestine8 wrote:
My son was having an issue running away from the teacher when he didn't want to do something, BECAUSE HE'S FOUR and that's what he does lately... I lost MY LAST JOB because of the amount of times I was called out of work and had to spend at home with my son while he was sick or had 'misbehaved'.

I don't live in the U.S. so you may find my question a bit naive but... How long has he been going to school? How young do you guys send your children to school? Where's the "bringing up" part? Here in Canada, we start half-a-day at school at around 5 1/2 years old in kindergarden.

I'm not juging you or your system. I'm just trying to understand.

Ultradan

Possibly in Montreal but I know a number of couples with 4 year olds that are in 1/2 day and the Liberal Government of Ontario ran 'more help for the pre-kindergarden crowd' as a major election platform.

That said I do believe this is a new phenomena. When I was growing up it was more like a year of half days prior to Grade One.

At first glance it would seem we have an odd situation where parents are ever less available (they are both focused on their careers) we have a situation where teachers are more prone to insisting that kids return home.

On the other hand I suspect that part of the i9ssue is that we just had less 4 year olds in school in the previous generation. Furthermore the very availability of a parent (almost always the mother) might actually discourage teachers from bringing children to the attention of their parents if at all possible.

after all a stay at home mother probably reacts by making i9t clear that she has all the time in the world to meet with teachers and principles in order to get a full and detailed report on the problem along with their recommendations. In effect the bar for teachers would have been raised since discipline that came to a parents attention might mean three extra hours of work on the part of the teacher.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Midnight Gamer wrote:

Seriously though, this country has changed so much since I was a kid, I don't even recognize it.

I'd guess my parents felt the same way when they got older and the world looked like a different place.

Yeah, and look how much smaller they made everything now.

I think its less that the world is more screwed up now and more than you're realizing how screwed up it is.

Can't say I agree. I'm probably more relaxed in this regard then my parents generation.

My parents lived in a world that was perpetually 30 minutes away from an extinction event. As concerned as I might be about terrorism its just not on the same level as a full scale thermonuclear war.

In terms of peace of mind things really are better now.


Celestine8 wrote:
I live in Canada. He attended JK when he was three. They said that if his fourth birthday fell before the month of December, he was to go to school. He's going half-days. I was blown away, too, when I got the notice that my son was old enough to attend school. I spoke to them and was assured that this was the appropriate age to attend school. I've considered removing him from school. The time he was sent home sick, I get. I wish he had been actually ill instead of having choked on something, but hey. The time today and many others before, I don't/

That's.....wow. My daughter CAN'T start kindergarten this year because she turns 5 in October, which is past the cutoff, so she has to wait until next year.

DEEP IN THE HEART OF TEXAS!!!

(we'll send her to pre-K though. She WANTS to go, and.....she's ready. Right now. Youngest of three,......she doesn't understand why she can't go to Pre-K next week).


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Being a year younger than everybody in class was fun.
I knew as many different flavors of dirt as eskimos have words for snow.

Liberty's Edge

My youngest turns three this August, but she's been in Pre-K for a year now.

Granted, I'm living in South Korea, where children begin attending Hagweon as soon as they start walking. Nonetheless, I'm convinced children should begin professional schooling or tutoring as soon as they are intellectually capable.

Sovereign Court

Andrew Turner wrote:

My youngest turns three this August, but she's been in Pre-K for a year now.

Granted, I'm living in South Korea, where children begin attending Hagweon as soon as they start walking. Nonetheless, I'm convinced children should begin professional schooling or tutoring as soon as they are intellectually capable.

Because who needs evidence and research when you can just be 'convinced'...

Sorry, that's pretty snarky but I'm struggling for a better way to put it.

news report on research


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I have no idea how the American education system really works but in Finland it is quite different. Starting at age of 7 children begin their school (lasting 9 years) and after that they have 3 options to choose: upper secondary school (voluntary) or vocational school (voluntary) or dropout. Even after these there still exists 2 different options: university or polytechnic.

Bla bla and so forth, there is some huge differences with style, education and system and I strongly disagree (That is my option) with sending children in early ages to school or to start "studying" as soon as they are able to comprehend simple things

Liberty's Edge

Andrew Turner wrote:

My youngest turns three this August, but she's been in Pre-K for a year now.

Granted, I'm living in South Korea, where children begin attending Hagweon as soon as they start walking. Nonetheless, I'm convinced children should begin professional schooling or tutoring as soon as they are intellectually capable.

GeraintElberion wrote:


Because who needs evidence and research when you can just be 'convinced'...

Sorry, that's pretty snarky but I'm struggling for a better way to put it.

news report on research

I hope you aren't suggesting we should only ever opine with at least 10 works cited to back up a claim or demonstrate the logical and reasoned process we executed to come by our statement (I know you didn't say that, but there seems a slight implication).

If you disagree with me, that's fine. Your single news article from October 2009 is not quite weighty enough to stabilize a counterargument and is, in fact, not too far different from my unqualified statement.

Also, I did write 'Nonetheless', which should have indicated to you that I think the subject to be open: children vary in capability, and some may be suited for an earlier educative experience.

I'd buy you another bowl of cornflakes, but I wasn't aiming for yours in the first place...


Azharten wrote:
I have no idea how the American education system really works

Brief overview

Daycare 6 months+ usually
3 years+ pre kindergarden

5 Kindergarten. This is the first level that is both required and free for everyone. Kids learn letters, shapes, the alphabet and start on reading. Often half day.

6-11 Elementary school. Reading writing and rithmatic.

12- Jr high

14-18 Highschool. The last two years might be vocational. The thing is you're very often repeating things you went over in jr high. I don't think i learned anything new in american history after the 7th grade.

College. Yay!

First two years: Highschool part II. Getting ridiculous requirements out of the way as the college tries to fix the horrible job highschool did of not educating people.

Second two years: The stuff you actually want to learn.


The big thing that blew my mind was no nap in the public school kindergarten (in Texas...can't speak for rest of USA). When I was in kindygarten we got a nap.
I didn't take it, and got paddled for being bad, but......man, I had the option.


When I was a kid, we spent our school days in what was pretty near 2.5x2.5 boxes starring at the wall only able to communicate by raising a flag. We went every Friday unable to eat. TV watching at home or anywhere else resulted in a paddling with a 2inch board. One kid got a broken arm from paddling. My brother was paddled in front of the entire student body (the administrators called a special assembly so everyone had to watch - a friend told me last year that it made her physically sick to watch it). I had three days straight of doing very little except writing sentences. Somet1imes I wonder if I failed the kids growing up in that environment that were younger than me by my not burning the place to the ground.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Azharten wrote:
I have no idea how the American education system really works

Brief overview

Daycare 6 months+ usually
3 years+ pre kindergarden

5 Kindergarten. This is the first level that is both required and free for everyone. Kids learn letters, shapes, the alphabet and start on reading. Often half day.

6-11 Elementary school. Reading writing and rithmatic.

12- Jr high

14-18 Highschool. The last two years might be vocational. The thing is you're very often repeating things you went over in jr high. I don't think i learned anything new in american history after the 7th grade.

College. Yay!

First two years: Highschool part II. Getting ridiculous requirements out of the way as the college tries to fix the horrible job highschool did of not educating people.

Second two years: The stuff you actually want to learn.

How does learning support and special educational needs factor in?


Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:

The big thing that blew my mind was no nap in the public school kindergarten (in Texas...can't speak for rest of USA). When I was in kindygarten we got a nap.

I didn't take it, and got paddled for being bad, but......man, I had the option.

It doesn't sound like napping was optional.


Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:

The big thing that blew my mind was no nap in the public school kindergarten (in Texas...can't speak for rest of USA). When I was in kindygarten we got a nap.

I didn't take it, and got paddled for being bad, but......man, I had the option.

In my sophomore year of high school I broke my tibia/fibia playing basketball. My gym period that semester was around the middle of the day, since I couldn't participate they let me go to the nurses office and lie down. 45 minute nap made my day soooo much better. I scammed it as long as I could.


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My son is nearly three. He is already in kindergarten, and loves it. He knows the alphabet and is starting to learn bo-po-mo-fo, can speak Mandarin and English, and is getting introduced to addition and subtraction. The kindergarten sends a different book home with him each week from their library, which is then read at home and at kindy.

They focus on art, with pottery, painting, drawing and crafts. He comes home each week with a new thing he made. He starts at eight in the morning, and leaves at seven at night.

He does 100 piece jigsaw puzzles at school and home.

Discipline is clear and firm. There are no grey areas.

He has two nap-times, and three meals.

When we pick him up, he is happy. He is happy when we drop him off.

I walk past the playground sometimes during the morning, and always see happy children playing well together.

I live in Taiwan.

This is his school

They don't send kids home. They deal with them fairly, but firmly.


Quote:
My son is nearly three.
Quote:
He starts at eight in the morning, and leaves at seven at night.

-I dislike my 4 hour work day, but I don't nap...


How does learning support and special educational needs factor in?

Mostly they keep passing the kids up a grade even though they shouldn't pass and haven't learned anything. If they're lucky there's a separate classroom for that.


Darkwing Duck wrote:
When I was a kid, we spent our school days in what was pretty near 2.5x2.5 boxes starring at the wall only able to communicate by raising a flag. We went every Friday unable to eat. TV watching at home or anywhere else resulted in a paddling with a 2inch board. One kid got a broken arm from paddling. My brother was paddled in front of the entire student body (the administrators called a special assembly so everyone had to watch - a friend told me last year that it made her physically sick to watch it). I had three days straight of doing very little except writing sentences. Somet1imes I wonder if I failed the kids growing up in that environment that were younger than me by my not burning the place to the ground.

where was this?

Sovereign Court

Andrew Turner wrote:
Andrew Turner wrote:

My youngest turns three this August, but she's been in Pre-K for a year now.

Granted, I'm living in South Korea, where children begin attending Hagweon as soon as they start walking. Nonetheless, I'm convinced children should begin professional schooling or tutoring as soon as they are intellectually capable.

GeraintElberion wrote:


Because who needs evidence and research when you can just be 'convinced'...

Sorry, that's pretty snarky but I'm struggling for a better way to put it.

news report on research

I hope you aren't suggesting we should only ever opine with at least 10 works cited to back up a claim or demonstrate the logical and reasoned process we executed to come by our statement (I know you didn't say that, but there seems a slight implication).

If you disagree with me, that's fine. Your single news article from October 2009 is not quite weighty enough to stabilize a counterargument and is, in fact, not too far different from my unqualified statement.

Also, I did write 'Nonetheless', which should have indicated to you that I think the subject to be open: children vary in capability, and some may be suited for an earlier educative experience.

I'd buy you another bowl of cornflakes, but I wasn't aiming for yours in the first place...

Sorry, I was being a miserable git. Apologies.

I would say that the article was about a comprehensive review of the research which you can find out about here.

I think I've just been speaking to a lot of people who are absolutely certain at the moment and it is messing with my head.

So, yeah; horrible, unpleasant tone. I apologise.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

How does learning support and special educational needs factor in?

Mostly they keep passing the kids up a grade even though they shouldn't pass and haven't learned anything. If they're lucky there's a separate classroom for that.

If the kid is an autistic genius or something in school then they might be able to handle a normal classroom but might have behavioral problems.


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Anyone interested in the state of public education in the United States would do well to read the works of John Taylor Gatto. A former New York State Teacher of the Year, he started doing research into the history and formative motivations (that is, WHY the schools and curriculum are structured the way they are) of the American public education system, and what he found (for instance, in the archives of the United States Senate) was actually pretty interesting. I won't bore you with all the details here for two reasons: 1) I'm in a hurry and that would take too long, and 2) Just hearing some of this stuff from some dude you don't know on the Internet might make it a little hard to swallow (and understandably so). Rather than bog down the thread with an exhaustive "Uh-uh!", "Uh-huh!"-type discussion, I will simply encourage you to read it for yourselves and make up your own mind.

P.S....don't ask me for a link. I gave you a name, and you have IntaWebz. That way, you can decide for yourself if the sites carrying the man's articles and essays are themselves, biased.


Celestine8 wrote:
I'm completely disgusted by how hands-off and lazy the teachers seem to be.

Would it astonish you to learn that the teachers are equally disgusted by how how hands-off and lazy the parents seem to be?


Elbe-el wrote:
Anyone interested in the state of public education in the United States would do well to read the works of John Taylor Gatto.

Intriguing.


Looking over his ideas, I find his critical analysis to be very informative. He takes a critical eye to the system and picks it apart quite well.

I think some of his assumptions and conclusions are wrong though. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking at how the system works, or that his views should be discounted.

Kids are by their very nature short sighted. There is science on the brain that shows certain areas don't fully develop until the age of 21-24, that deal with impulse control. Car insurance companies have seen evidence of this for a long time, this is why your car insurance rates go down at age 25, because the rate of accidents starts to drop.

He does call for stronger family ties, which I agree with, but that means changing our society away from the nuclear family and back to the mingling of villages and communities. His solutions largely strike me as nostalgia for Massachusetts in 1850, which isn't a realistic solution.

Shadow Lodge

doctor_wu wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

How does learning support and special educational needs factor in?

Mostly they keep passing the kids up a grade even though they shouldn't pass and haven't learned anything. If they're lucky there's a separate classroom for that.

If the kid is an autistic genius or something in school then they might be able to handle a normal classroom but might have behavioral problems.

I think BNW's point is that they aren't actually doing those kids any favors by passing them just to be passing them. In the real world they aren't going to get anywhere near that kind of leeway.


Kthulhu wrote:

I think BNW's point is that they aren't actually doing those kids any favors by passing them just to be passing them. In the real world they aren't going to get anywhere near that kind of leeway.

Well, its not just the real world its school too. If the kid can't do addition and subtraction in the second grade tossing them up to the third grade where the rest of the class is on multiplication and division isn't going to help. (because you can't understand one without the other) They learn nothing, fail that, get passed on again, learn nothing, fail that wash rinse and repeat until the day they "graduate"


Irontruth, did you look at his research into the origins and stated intent of our public education system? The ideas he espouses (and I'm not saying I agree with all of them) make a lot more sense when it is understood that the current system has a single, specific goal. Gatto isn't nearly as interesting when he talks about "how" as he is when he talks about "why".

I think this is a question of monumental importance. It may seem counter-intuitive to say this, but our educational system has remained fundamentally unchanged since the late 1890's. I say "fundamentally unchanged" because while there have been a plethora of changes to the appearance and method of our schools, their fundamental purpose has not...and all the changes people are rushing to point out to me were all made to serve that fundamental purpose.

Finally, while I am a very science-y guy, and will therefore NOT call BS on the brain science you mention, I will point out some other brain science and speculate a bit. Namely, the fact that there is plenty of science on the brain that suggests that environmental factors (early family life and nutrition being two "biggies") play a significant role in brain development as well. I should hope that it will be both obvious and incontrovertible that our culture enjoins us to extend childhood as long as humanly possible. Do you think it might be possible that the results of the experiments you mention might have changed if the test subject came from two or three centuries earlier? In other words, do you think an 18 year old male born in 1790 would have shown more (or less) development of the centers of his brain that deal with impulse control than an 18 year old male born in 1990?


-Has anyone ever argued the US public education system is anything other than a disaster? Not to say this is wrong, but as I was homeschooled most of my education, and received a scholarship to a top 100 university I don't see much evidence that american public schools are serving their purpose, except in tax codes and counties where publick schools are white and well funded.
-This is not a racist post. My sister works Catholic schools outside of CAMDEN NJ which is not known for it's lily blanc character...The difference is parents who send their kids to catholic school actually care about their children's education. My sister was head of the black culture society at the high school she teaches at. (and she's white). The education of minorities in america is a terrible, terrible thing. The native americans have it even worse...don't read about alaska schools or you'll cry.


On science and education, here is an editorial by the editor-in-chief of Science magazine, on the topic of education.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
HarbinNick wrote:

-Has anyone ever argued the US public education system is anything other than a disaster?

The education system reflects the values of American society. In the earlier parts of the twentieth century, there was a high value placed on self improvment through learning and academic discipline to the extent that the average Dust Bowl farmer was far more rigorous in critical analysis and politically astute than the average media-soaked American is today.

American scholarship focus continued for some time through the post World War 2 era. Then the Baby Boomers came into play, knowing nothing but growing up in the longest economic boom the country had ever known in it's entire history. Long term discipline gave way to immediate satisfaction, long term investment gave way to quick cash flipping in every commodity from stocks to homes themselves. Less and less thought was given to investing to the future and as areas of long term investment, the public schools were quick to become targets of scorn and neglect.

I live in a state where every one of the major school districts had to be taken over by the state government. If the Public School system is a disgrace, it's the result of decades of the American people deciding that long term investment in our nation was no longer a priority.


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HarbinNick wrote:
-Has anyone ever argued the US public education system is anything other than a disaster?

Given your frequent errors in spelling, grammar, and punctuation, I'd submit that your homeschool education (at least in the area of English) may have been somewhat less than stellar as well. One is inclined to reference motes and beams.

Grand Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Mostly they keep passing the (special needs) kids up a grade even though they shouldn't pass and haven't learned anything. If they're lucky there's a separate classroom for that.

Any way we can avoid making statements like these, that, while unfortunately sometimes happen, are not how the system is designed. And not how it is run?

Sure there are plenty of problems that lead to passing students that shouldn't be and yes it's often the luck of the draw if you live in a good District or not -- but the system does not support passing kids who have not mastered their benchmarks.

And, not in an attempt to start anything, my experience makes me think that a huge amount of the students who are passing despite not reaching benchmarks are a result of parent presure on the school.

The textbook example of this that happens seemingly all the time is the K-5 child who is not ready for 1st grade (still not quite able to cut on a straight line, color inside the box, connect the dots, basic addition arithmatic, read at a K-5 level, etc.) yet, despite the school's position that the child stay in K-5, the parents scream that the child WILL NOT FAIL KINDERGARTEN even if they have to enroll him or her in another school.

Either way -- school's fault or parents' -- this is a HUGELY complex dynamic of education that cannot be so easily or simply explained or concluded.

We don't have NEARLY enough info on the OP's child and the specific situation nor NEARLY enough info on the school and how it's run to give certain explanation of what's happening there.

Grand Lodge

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HarbinNick wrote:
-Has anyone ever argued the US public education system is anything other than a disaster?

Everyone who actually knows the public ed system in the US knows it's a very good system -- probably the best in the world.

However, the implementation of said system fails (in certain parts) in many Districts.

And no system of public ed can be perfect.


W E Ray wrote:
still not quite able to cut on a straight line

Damn, I am not ready for 1st grade...


You know I hear people say, "Passing them just to be passing them isn't doing them any favors in the real world that doesn't happen." but my experience is that it does happen -- all the time.

People that are completely unqualified, or do a bad job are left where they are or promoted simply because of inertia or influence. Simply put they get by simply by being there... and it's common. People of people do it in both service and industry jobs. They aren't really good at what they do, and they don't really care but because they are there and no one else wants to do it or get the people that aren't doing good out of the way they continue just 'passing on'.

This is especially prevalent where pay scales have been stagnating and no one else really wants the job.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Ultradan wrote:
Celestine8 wrote:
My son was having an issue running away from the teacher when he didn't want to do something, BECAUSE HE'S FOUR and that's what he does lately... I lost MY LAST JOB because of the amount of times I was called out of work and had to spend at home with my son while he was sick or had 'misbehaved'.

I don't live in the U.S. so you may find my question a bit naive but... How long has he been going to school? How young do you guys send your children to school? Where's the "bringing up" part? Here in Canada, we start half-a-day at school at around 5 1/2 years old in kindergarden.

I'm not judging you or your system. I'm just trying to understand.

Ultradan

That actually isn't true, in Ontario they are in the process of implementing full day kindergarten, starting at JK (although JK is optional.) So across the province you either have kids who might be as young as 3 (but like 3 8/12s) in JK for whole days. In districts where full day hasn't been implemented they do one of two things, either half days, or 2.5 days a week, that is you go to school Monday, Wednesdays and every other Friday.

In practical terms, it just isn't as tenable to be a single income family these days, so a lot of kids are "in school" starting from 1. Where they are in some form of day care away from there parent. Many children at age 2-4 are in a more formal "pre school" program that while much lower ratios is very similar to that of a school room setting.

That being said I think (not with standing the throwing up case, that is a sending home here too) the discipline thing is a liability issue. Schools and teachers are more scared of lawsuits from parents then disciplining kids. Any sort of discipline (and I'm not talking about hitting) may be inferred by the parent of that particular precious snow flake as damaging or abusive, enter the black hawk parents to save their wittle baby, and chastise, or sue the school system for damaging them.

It is easier and safer for teachers to just to not try...

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