Okay, so
First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats.
feats are the last thing to apply, so if you gained the class feature that level, you can use it to qualify for feats taken at that level.
I do know how relevant this is. But the wording in white haired witch seems to imply the witch has three seperatete hex class features. Hex major hex and grand hex.
But really the grave walker basically.lay has hex smudged out and new class features written in and does not appear until later
If you look at the language, it just says it replaces the hex given at that level, not the hex class feature itself. It's like how a class can cast 0 spells of a certain level, instead of not being able to cast spells of that level.
...but as I pointed out the book never says you gain the hex class feature as a collective thing. It only points to individual hexes.
If you look at the language, it just says it replaces the hex given at that level, not the hex class feature itself. It's like how a class can cast 0 spells of a certain level, instead of not being able to cast spells of that level.
It's actually like how a ranger can't cast spells because of a dash at that level, not the other way around. You don't have 0 hexes, you don't have the Hex ability.
I guess that would mean it's a GM's call then. There's no real way to adjucate this. The feat prereqs imply that there is a Hex Class Feature. The class never specifies when that class feature is gained, so it's up to the GM to determine if the Class Feature is gained at level 1, even if you have no ability to use that feature, or if it isn't gained until you receive the ability to use it.
I would be included to rule for the latter. It seems to me that you need to sacrifice something, being allowed to take a feat to mitigate that sacrifice seems counter to the spirit of the archetype. Again, this is just my opinion, I don't think there is a way to prove one way or the other.
That is just telling you that the with can learn more than one hex, but my point was the bbook never says witches gain hexes at level X.
Examples
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level or higher, a monk can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Now that is not an ability that allows you to make future choices like hexes do.
Combat Style Feat (Ex)At 2nd level, a ranger must select one of two (seven, if styles from Advanced Player's Guide are allowed) combat styles to pursue: archery or two-weapon combat (Note: Advanced Player's Guide adds 5 new combat style options: crossbow, mounted combat, natural weapon, two-handed weapon, and weapon and shield).
The ranger's expertise manifests in the form of bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.
In this situation you have one class ability that is given as a collective, and specifies which level it starts at.
I guess they are the same. That only shows that the ranger is in the same boat I guess. FAQ time. :)
SKR has ruled on it, and give the same answer I did. Does he really need to make an FAQ?
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Though the difference for the witch being that normally, the hex class feature kicks in at first level. With the witch archetype being discussed, any reference to receiving that class feature at first level is deleted and it doesn't kick in until the second level.
Using the ranger as a comparative example is a bad comparison. The ranger may still choose one of the listed feats as a normal feat selection. The witch, on the other hand, does not have that ability with regards to hexes.
This particular witch archetype does not receive the hex class feature until second level, and therefore cannot choose the extra hex feat at first level. For this archetype, the hex description might as well read: "At 2nd level, a witch gains one hex of her choice. She gains an additional hex at 4th level and for every 2 levels gained..."
Put it another way, though the Druid may not wild shape until fourth level, is she considered to have the wild shape class ability at first level and may she take the "Natural Spell" feat at first level? I think it is well understood that she may not. The witch archetype is no different, the witch archetype does not receive the hex class ability until second level.
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qt8
When do I count as having a class feature?
You have a class feature when your class description tells you you gain that class feature, generally based on your level in that class (and perhaps altered by factors, see below).
If you have an archetype or other rules element that replaces that class feature, you do not have that class feature. For example, if your archetype replaces a rogue's sneak attack, you no longer have the sneak attack class feature (whether a requirement is as general as "sneak attack" or as specific as "sneak attack +1d6," you do not qualify for it).
If you have an archetype or other rules element that replaces part of a scaling class feature, or delays when you get that class feature, you do not have that class feature until you actually gain that class feature.
Example: If you have a fighter archetype that replaces weapon training 1 (but not weapon training 2, 3, and 4), you don't gain the weapon training 2 ability until fighter level 9, which means you don't have the weapon training class ability at all until you reach fighter level 9. Anything with "weapon training" or "weapon training class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 9.
Example: If you have a cleric archetype that replaces channel energy at level 1 (but not later increments of channel energy), you don't gain the channel energy ability until cleric level 3, which means you don't have the channel energy class feature until you reach cleric level 3. Anything with "channel energy" or "channel energy class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 3.
Example: If you have a witch archetype that replaces your hex at level 1 (but not later hexes, major hexes, or grand hexes), you don't gain your first hex ability until witch level 2, which means you don't have the hex class feature until you reach witch level 2. Anything with "hex" or "hex class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 2.
Thanks! This'll clear up quite a few threads.
So im gonna necro this thread a bit, partially since it was well discussed, and partially since it got one official response already.
Situation is I do not have a hex at first level. But with the new patron themes i pick Fey Gifts theme with the Agility Patron. Fey Gifts gives me the Charm Hex. Do i qualify for say, Extra Hex at level 1?
So im gonna necro this thread a bit, partially since it was well discussed, and partially since it got one official response already.
Situation is I do not have a hex at first level. But with the new patron themes i pick Fey Gifts theme with the Agility Patron. Fey Gifts gives me the Charm Hex. Do i qualify for say, Extra Hex at level 1?
I would say yes.
