I am playing a Sorcerer and decided to go down the Arcane Bloodline route. Due to the benefits of the bloodline, of course I am going to be taking some metamagic feats.
I have played my share of casters, but have never gone down the metamagic feat route before. Never liked adding levels to my spells before, would just prefer to cast the higher level spell.
However, I thought I would at least give it a try and see how I liked it. And especially since I chose the Arcane bloodline, it would be a waste not to (take Metamagic feats).
I am planning out my Sorcerer for his higher levels, and I am torn on Empower Spell and Intensified Spell. I am thinking of taking Empower Spell right now, and possibly adding Intensified Spell if we go Mythic level.
I like Intensified since it is only +1 to spell level, but you have to have that many spell casting levels for the added (5) dice. With Empower, you don’t need the additional spellcasting levels. It is also an additional 50%, not just 5 dice.
What I would like to do is take Empower now, and switch out with Intensified later on. But the only character that can ‘retrain’ feats are fighters, so that is out.
My question is, is it worth it to hold out for Intensified later on, when I have the spellcasting levels to use the additional 5 dice, or should I just take Empower now instead and forget about Intensified? Or finally, should I end up taking both?
Suggestions are appreciated.
2 questions:
- What level are you?
- What type of spells, do you like to cast?
What choices you should make, depends a lot on your answers.
Right now I am 5th level.
My stats are:
Str 14
Dex 12 (including +2 racial bonus)
Con 14 (including +2 racial bonus)
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 19 (with +2 headband)
I know the strength is a bit high compared to your min/max character, but never liked playing the ‘frail’ mages.
As for spells, when playing previous Sorcerers, I usually have gone down the blasting route. But this time I am using some more control spells. Not 100% control, I still will blast, but I am going to try and balance it out a little more between blast and control.
My spell list so far:
1st Level: Magic Missile, Mage Armor, Colorspray, Sleep
Bloodline Spell: Identify
2nd Level: Glitterdust, Scorching Ray
Bloodline Spell: Invisibilty
I will probably switch out at least Sleep/and or Colorspray and Mage Armor at later levels.
I don't think there's a single answer for every sorcerer.
I personally got both because of Magical Lineage. With that, you can essentially Intensify for free.
For example, an Intensified Empowered Shocking Grasp with Magical Lineage does more damage than a Fireball as a third level spell. It all depends on how you mix them.
You only have a few spells that are blast worthy so far, and both of them don't gain a damage die per level. Because of this, I'd focus more on Empower. You won't gain much from Intensify until much higher levels with the spells you have.
I just read up more closely on Maximize Spell, and realized that the empowered portion is not maximized. Bah
I may just wait until I get high level and take Intensified Spell, as it doesn’t have that limitation.
And to GrenMeera, yes, that is a good combination with Magical Lineage. However, I did not take that trait, so I can’t take advantage of that.
Empower Spell isn't worth it at level 5 -- the spell level adjustment is +2, which means you could only apply it to cantrips at this point. In fact, the only metamagic feat I would take at that level would be Extend Spell, but only Sleep would benefit from the extension and DC boost. (Color Spray has an instantaneous duration). At level 5 I would suggest something like Spell Focus (Conjuration) or (Evocation) instead. Dice level caps aren't something you're going to generally encounter until level 10 or so.
At higher levels, Intensified Spell is probably something you'll get more use out of -- for example, at level 14 you can spend a fourth-level slot to cast a 14d6 Fireball instead of using a 7th-level slot to do the same with Delayed Blast Fireball. For my sorcerer, I got a Rod of Empower Spell instead of taking the feat, for those occasions when I absolutely need something dead quickly.
I hadn’t planned taking Empower Spell at level 5, I actually have already chosen my level 5 feat.
It wasn’t until quite a bit later on (I believe I was thinking around 13th level) where I was going to take it. But as I said, I am really debating on just skipping it altogether. I originally thought it stacked with Maximize Spell, and it doesn’t.
To me, Empower is often better than maximize, particularly at lower levels and particularly when mixed with Intensify. Mostly because you are sacrificing another spell level for a very minimum damage increase. You would generally Maximize a spell if it is hitting multiple opponents, and Empower if not. You can do both when you are high enough level to just REALLY want to hit with a punch.
Now, because of the five level increase of Intensify, and Empowered plus Intensify is the exact same spell level of Maximize, you can generally just compare my examples below of Empower from a higher tier to the Maximize of the lower. For example, use the Empowered of 10d6 compared to the Maximize of 5d6 to see what a +3 spell level adjustment would use if Intensified and Empowered.
Let's use a few examples for every five damage die. For Empower, I am taking the mean average of dice rolled.
5d6
Empowered: 27 average (9-45)
Maximized: 30
10d6
Empowered: 52 average (15-90)
Maximized: 60
15d6
Empowered: 78 average (22-135)
Maximized: 90
20d6
Empowered: 105 average (30-180)
Maximized: 120
25d6
Empowered: 131 average (37-225)
Granted, I will admit that you need the caster levels to make the Empowered + Intensify be an appropriate choice. If you're level 11, Maximize regains the edge.
Regarding Magical Lineage, you have the option for taking the Additional Traits feat later on.
Generelly when planning your caster, I think you should make sure to have 3 metamagic feats before lvl 15, making you ready for that sweet Spell Perfection.
While it going to take a few levels before you can use it, Dazing spell is a nice way to add control onto your blasts.
I was about to point out you needed the caster levels to use your Empower+Intensify combination. But yes, I see your point.
As I said in a prior post, if I was to take Intensified Spell, it would be at the minimum of 13th level.
What I had even thought about is picking up a Empower Spell Rod later on and use that with my Metamagic feats. Granted, it would always turn the spell into a full round action (unless I use Quicken Spell), but at least would alleviate a couple added caster levels.
It’s a shame I can’t use Metamagic rods with my Metamagic Adept ability.
Yes, I could take the Additional Traits feat, but it’s another feat slot I really don’t want to burn. It’s nice if it’s part of your character focus, but my feat slots are very limited as is right now.
I seriously thought about adding Spell Perfection. I definitely will have 3 metamagic feats by 15th level. However, to be honest, I haven't been able to decide on that one spell to pick for the feat.
I have also thought about Dazing, but again, running out of room.
I seriously thought about adding Spell Perfection. I definitely will have 3 metamagic feats by 15th level. However, to be honest, I haven't been able to decide on that one spell to pick for the feat.I have also thought about Dazing, but again, running out of room.
Regarding Spell Perfection, I'd suggest you just wait and decide what spells is fitting for your character to specialize in. The doubled bonusses from feats is nice, as well as the free metamagic.
Personally I would go with a lvl 5 spell (or 6 with lineage) to be able to Quicken it, without a higher spell slot.Obviously it will depend a lot on which types of spells you favor and/or specialize in.
At the end of the day, as a sorcerer, you should be able to contribute to the party at lvl 15 with or without spell perfection.
Where I will still splash in some control spells, blasting will still be my focus (most likely) at higher levels. So that is what I would attach Spell Perfection to. I just could not decide which damage spell to do that with.
I probably wouldn’t Quicken the ‘perfected’ spell, just for the fact quickening it makes it a swift action, and therefore negates the bonus of not increasing the casting time (as it is a swift action, anyways).
What I would do is Quicken another spell, cast that, then cast my ‘perfected’ spell as a standard action.
Where I will still splash in some control spells, blasting will still be my focus (most likely) at higher levels. So that is what I would attach Spell Perfection to. I just could not decide which damage spell to do that with.
I probably wouldn’t Quicken the ‘perfected’ spell, just for the fact quickening it makes it a swift action, and therefore negates the bonus of not increasing the casting time (as it is a swift action, anyways).
What I would do is Quicken another spell, cast that, then cast my ‘perfected’ spell as a standard action.
Another solution is to quicken it once, saving an expensive spell slot, then cast it as a standard action with whatever metamagic feats you have :-)
Hmm, good point.
I was thinking you couldn’t use the same metamagic feat in the same round. But I guess there is no rule on it, and considering there are other feats you can use more than once in the same round.
But, what I was thinking more on is picking up Chain Lightning for Perfected Spell and attaching Maximize to it.
Sure, I wouldn’t be able to attach Quicken with Spell Perfection, but I am liking the option to maximize 20d6 (or 15d6 when I pick up Spell Perfection). Or, if I do decide to choose Empower Spell earlier on, I can roll 22d6 at 15th level. :)
Well, you could Quickened Empowered Fireball + Maximized Chain Lightning for a level 6 spell slot and a level 9 spell slot if Chain Lightning is your Perfected Spell. All of this is in one turn.
At level 15
Quickened Empowered Fireball - 52 damage
Maximized Chain Lightning - 90 damage
Total - 142
At level 20
Quickened Empowered Fireball - 52 damage
Maximized Chain Lightning - 120 damage
Total - 172
Average between levels 15-20:
157
Or, you could Quickened Empowered Fireball + Maximized Empowered Intensified Fireball for a level 5 spell slot and a level 6 spell slot if Fireball is your Perfected Spell. All of this is in one turn.
At level 15
Quickened Empowered Fireball - 52 damage
Maximized Empowered Intensified Fireball - 116 damage
Total - 168
At level 20
Quickened Empowered Fireball - 52 damage
Maximized Empowered Intensified Fireball - 116 damage
Total - 168
Average between levels 15-20:
168
So you can see how the choices can be very different if you want to get the most bang for your buck across more levels.
You get higher average damage from using a lower level spell plus you are using less powerful spell slots by taking advantage of your Perfected Spell feat twice in a round.
Thank you for the suggestions, GrenMeera.
The only issue with that is, at least at 15th level, I am not going to be able to do a Quickened Empowered Fireball. :)
Now, an empowered Fireball (or even Cone of Cold) used with Metamagic Adept would work.
Blasting is not all that great, but if you really want to do it then take dazing spell. It is in the APG.
Ha! You're right! I wasn't even thinking about that part.
All the more reason to choose your lower level Fireball (or Lightning Bolt if you prefer) for Spell Perfection. Spell Perfection doesn't say you need to be able to cast the adjusted spell when applying the free metamagic feat, just that it doesn't exceed spell level 9.
So you can do the Fireball (Lightning Bolt) version, but not the Chain Lightning version at level 15.
Blasting is not all that great, but if you really want to do it then take dazing spell. It is in the APG.
Yes, that’s what I hear (about blasting not being all that great). But I find playing strictly a control caster, well, boring.
However, as I said, I will (and do) have some control spells, which is more than what I’ve had in the past. I do acknowledge they can are very effective. But to play strictly as “save or be blinded/incapacitated/die” is not as fun.
And as I said, I have thought about Dazing, but I am short on spaces for feats and there are other feats I want to take instead. But, who knows, I may take it yet.
Ha! You're right! I wasn't even thinking about that part.
All the more reason to choose your lower level Fireball (or Lightning Bolt if you prefer) for Spell Perfection. Spell Perfection doesn't say you need to be able to cast the adjusted spell when applying the free metamagic feat, just that it doesn't exceed spell level 9.
So you can do the Fireball (Lightning Bolt) version, but not the Chain Lightning version at level 15.
Yes, I agree, you don’t need to be able to cast the level spell (that would normally be adjusted) with the metamagic feat added through Spell Perfection. So why use Fireball, with lower damage, where I can choose a 6th level spell, like Chain Lightning, for more damage?
You can only attach one metamagic feat through Spell Perfection, so I may as well choose a higher damaging spell.
Blasting is not all that great, but if you really want to do it then take dazing spell. It is in the APG.Yes, that’s what I hear (about blasting not being all that great). But I find playing strictly a control caster, well, boring.
However, as I said, I will (and do) have some control spells, which is more than what I’ve had in the past. I do acknowledge they can are very effective. But to play strictly as “save or be blinded/incapacitated/die” is not as fun.
And as I said, I have thought about Dazing, but I am short on spaces for feats and there are other feats I want to take instead. But, who knows, I may take it yet.
Blasting can do a lot of damage, but that is not normally until after level 10, and it takes a lot of feats to make it work.
There is also a feat that changes the elemental type of the spell. I would look at that one.
Ha! You're right! I wasn't even thinking about that part.
All the more reason to choose your lower level Fireball (or Lightning Bolt if you prefer) for Spell Perfection. Spell Perfection doesn't say you need to be able to cast the adjusted spell when applying the free metamagic feat, just that it doesn't exceed spell level 9.
So you can do the Fireball (Lightning Bolt) version, but not the Chain Lightning version at level 15.
Yes, I agree, you don’t need to be able to cast the level spell (that would normally be adjusted) with the metamagic feat added through Spell Perfection. So why use Fireball, with lower damage, where I can choose a 6th level spell, like Chain Lightning, for more damage?
You can only attach one metamagic feat through Spell Perfection, so I may as well choose a higher damaging spell.
Metamagic'ing a lower level spell will normally get you more damage than a higher level spell, and it might save you a few spell slots also. I think Fireball and Scorching Ray are the two spells that are used on blaster builds, most often.
Well that's what I was trying to display, because you can Quicken it as a swift action and Maximize it as a standard action, you get more damage out of the lower level spell.
Particularly because you can't even Quicken Chain Lightning, you MUST rely on a lower level spell in order to add more damage per round. The ability to cast two spells always out-damages one large spell. The great thing is, the one large spell can be PART of the two spells.
As stated above, a maximized chain lightning at level 15 will only net you 90 damage. Since you can't cast a 9th level spell at level 15, you'll have to only use a Quickened Fireball to add more damage. This brings you up to 125 damage total.
If you focus on fireball instead, you can put out 168 damage.
However, simply using the Spell Perfection feat DOES give you one more additional power. You can still take a move action after Maximized Chain Lightning because it doesn't affect the casting time like all sorcerer metamagic applications.
Blasting can do a lot of damage, but that is not normally until after level 10, and it takes a lot of feats to make it work.
There is also a feat that changes the elemental type of the spell. I would look at that one.
All of my metamagic feats dealing with my damage spells I am not taking until after 10th level, anyways.
And it really depends on what your version of ‘a lot of damage’ is. I am not looking at doing one shot kills against creatures, here. We do have 3-4 other members who are contributing as well.
I had thought about Elemental Spell, also. But I just don’t like how limited it is. As you can only pick one energy type for the feat.
Metamagic'ing a lower level spell will normally get you more damage than a higher level spell, and it might save you a few spell slots also. I think Fireball and Scorching Ray are the two spells that are used on blaster builds, most often.
Yes, I understood that reasoning.
However, as no spell levels are added with the metamagic feat through Spell Perfection, I won’t need to worry about trying to be more conservative and use a lower level spell.
Yes, but you can conserve those spell level slots AND do more damage with a lower level spell. It's essentially win/win.
Elemental only comes up every so often, and that's why I prefer to use a metamagic rod for that. It's also a fairly cheap rod comparatively.
I went with Dragon blooded sorcerer, which gets a +1 for all damage dice done with the element of your dragon type. I plan on buying an Elemental (Electricity) metamagic rod to turn any spell to my draconic type for the extra damage, and an Elemental metamagic rod of Acid to take care of the pesky creatures that are immune to my Electricity.
Well that's what I was trying to display, because you can Quicken it as a swift action and Maximize it as a standard action, you get more damage out of the lower level spell.
Particularly because you can't even Quicken Chain Lightning, you MUST rely on a lower level spell in order to add more damage per round. The ability to cast two spells always out-damages one large spell. The great thing is, the one large spell can be PART of the two spells.
As stated above, a maximized chain lightning at level 15 will only net you 90 damage. Since you can't cast a 9th level spell at level 15, you'll have to only use a Quickened Fireball to add more damage. This brings you up to 125 damage total.
If you focus on fireball instead, you can put out 168 damage.
However, simply using the Spell Perfection feat DOES give you one more additional power. You can still take a move action after Maximized Chain Lightning because it doesn't affect the casting time like all sorcerer metamagic applications.
Please explain how you are getting 168 damage by choosing Fireball for Spell Perfection.
Not that I doubt you, it's just that you jumped to that number, and I have no idea how you got there.
Rods are good for sorcerers since they dont have too many feats.
If you focus one spell you can get the DC really high. As for a lot of damage I would like to take at least half of an opponent's hp way.
As for the saved slots GrenMeera nailed it. By focusing on lower level spells you get more damage while using the same slots. You might even be able to use less slots which means you have spells left just in case you need them.
If a GM allows the 15 minute work day then efficiency is not that important, but if resting might cause problems then saving spells/slots is always a good idea.
If I were to munckin out a Blaster Dazer for Spell Perfection, I would focus on Chain Lightning. Crossblooded Arcane and Elemental (electricity).
For feats I'd take: Spell focus (bonus) + Greater, Elemental focus + greater, quicken, Dazing, Empower (b), Intensify, Spell penetration, Spell perfection, Spell specialization (chain lightning).
Arriving at lvl 15 it gets mean:
While the damage of the Intensified Dazing Chain Lightning is only 19d6, the DC is going to be 25 + cha bonus to avoid 6 rounds of daze.
Please explain how you are getting 168 damage by choosing Fireball for Spell Perfection.
Not that I doubt you, it's just that you jumped to that number, and I have no idea how you got there.
No problems! Happy to oblige:
At level 15
Quickened Empowered Fireball - 52 damage (10d6 x 1.5, 35 mean average on 10d6 x 1.5 = 52) This takes up a 5th level spell slot because Spell Perfection removes the Quickened adjustment. This is a swift action.
Maximized Empowered Intensified Fireball - 116 damage (15d6 maximized + 15d6 x 0.5, 90 + 52 mean average on 15d6 x 0.5 = 90 + 26 = 116) This takes up a 6th level spell slot because Spell Perfection removes Maximized adjustment. This is a full round action due to spontaneous casters using metamagic feats.
Total - 168
If I were to munckin out a Blaster Dazer for Spell Perfection, I would focus on Chain Lightning. Crossblooded Arcane and Elemental (electricity).
For feats I'd take: Spell focus (bonus) + Greater, Elemental focus + greater, quicken, Dazing, Empower (b), Intensify, Spell penetration, Spell perfection, Spell specialization (chain lightning).
Arriving at lvl 15 it gets mean:
While the damage of the Intensified Dazing Chain Lightning is only 19d6, the DC is going to be 25 + cha bonus to avoid 6 rounds of daze.
At level 15 you're still only going to get 15d6 on an Intensified Dazing Chain Lightning.
Also, without Magical Lineage: Chain Lightning, and maybe even if you have it, that spell is level 10 prior to reducing the spell level from Spell Perfection and therefore not legal.
At level 15 you're still only going to get 15d6 on an Intensified Dazing Chain Lightning.Also, without Magical Lineage: Chain Lightning, and maybe even if you have it, that spell is level 10 prior to reducing the spell level from Spell Perfection and therefore not legal.
Spell Specialization gives +2 caster level to the spell, with Spell Perfection it is +4.
Magical Lineage is calculated therein. I am not aware of anything disallowing a final adjusted level of 9 with the trait.
Spell Specialization gives +2 caster level to the spell, with Spell Perfection it is +4.
Magical Lineage is calculated therein. I am not aware of anything disallowing a final adjusted level of 9 with the trait.
Ah, I knew Magical Lineage was needed! I also did indeed miss the Spell Specialization! Thank you for the clarification!
Generally, I'd wonder if my GM would allow Magical Lineage to bring something from level 10 back into legal level 9, but the RAW is unclear about that.
Ah, I knew Magical Lineage was needed! I also did indeed miss the Spell Specialization! Thank you for the clarification!Generally, I'd wonder if my GM would allow Magical Lineage to bring something from level 10 back into legal level 9, but the RAW is unclear about that.
As I understand it, it is legal. But it isn't clear cut.
However the waters really become muddied, when applying Spell Perfection as well. At that point, the ruling would depend on whether you apply the feat or the trait first.
Please explain how you are getting 168 damage by choosing Fireball for Spell Perfection.
Not that I doubt you, it's just that you jumped to that number, and I have no idea how you got there.
No problems! Happy to oblige:
At level 15
Quickened Empowered Fireball - 52 damage (10d6 x 1.5, 35 mean average on 10d6 x 1.5 = 52) This takes up a 5th level spell slot because Spell Perfection removes the Quickened adjustment. This is a swift action.Maximized Empowered Intensified Fireball - 116 damage (15d6 maximized + 15d6 x 0.5, 90 + 52 mean average on 15d6 x 0.5 = 90 + 26 = 116) This takes up a 6th level spell slot because Spell Perfection removes Maximized adjustment. This is a full round action due to spontaneous casters using metamagic feats.
Total - 168
Ahhh, ok. I understand now.
For whatever reason, I was thinking you could only apply 'one' metamagic feat to your perfection spell. So I figured if I could apply only one, I would 'perfect' a higher level spell.
The only other question is, I know you can use a swift and standard action in the same round. However, can you use a swift and full round action in the same round?
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can't be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.
Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn.
Yup! A full-round action can be combined with a swift action!
Swift actions have always been a bit confusing to me.
As you quoted, they "represent a larger expenditure of effort than a free action, but take the same amount of time."
I guess what the distinction with a free action is only one swift action can be done, where you can do multiple free actions.
Yes, that's exactly the difference between them!
Otherwise, you'd just cast infinite Quickened spells on a single turn.
Also, feats use them to prevent stacking a lot of abilities. A Magus can't use Arcane Strike on the same round as his Arcane Pool ability because they're both swift actions.
It's interesting to note that Stunning Fist isn't a swift action. They were really trying to allow monks to stack on some of those bonuses, as any use of Ki Pool IS a swift action.
Thanks to those who have given suggestions on the thread, especially to GreMeera on his calculations. :)
Been thinking about my Sorcerer since all the input of this thread and changed some feats on him. I’ve planned him all the way to 20th level.
Feats I’ve already taken:
1st Deepsight
3rd Craft Wonderous Item
5th Craft Wand
Feats I plan to take:
7th Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Bloodline Bonus Feat: Spell Focus
9th Empower Spell
11th Maximize Spell
13th Quicken Spell, Bloodline Bonus Feat: Still Spell
15th Spell Perfection
17th Spell Penetration
19th Greater Spell Penetration, Bloodline Bonus Feat: Haven’t decided yet
As you can see, I’ve also taken several craft feats. I’m sure many will disagree, but it works well with our campaign due to we are monster characters and actually buying magic items is very difficult for us. We have focused our characters to be very self sufficient.
Also, I know some may feel I should have added Greater Spell Focus, but I just didn’t have the room for GSF with the metamagic feats I wanted to take.
But if anyone has any other better suggestions on how to arrange the order of feats, anything would be appreciated. I also wanted to try and get Dazing Spell in there, but just don’t have the room.
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Please explain how you are getting 168 damage by choosing Fireball for Spell Perfection.
Not that I doubt you, it's just that you jumped to that number, and I have no idea how you got there.
No problems! Happy to oblige:
At level 15
Quickened Empowered Fireball - 52 damage (10d6 x 1.5, 35 mean average on 10d6 x 1.5 = 52) This takes up a 5th level spell slot because Spell Perfection removes the Quickened adjustment. This is a swift action.Maximized Empowered Intensified Fireball - 116 damage (15d6 maximized + 15d6 x 0.5, 90 + 52 mean average on 15d6 x 0.5 = 90 + 26 = 116) This takes up a 6th level spell slot because Spell Perfection removes Maximized adjustment. This is a full round action due to spontaneous casters using metamagic feats.
Total - 168
Are we sure that Maximize stacks with Intensify, and Empower stacks with Intensify, like that? Are the bonus dice from Intensify improved by other metemagic feats? I ask because Maximize and Empower explicitly do not stack. One implication is that metamgic feats do not modify each other. (I think RAW could be seen either way, so this is probably an "Ask your GM to be sure" situation).
Not stacking only shaves about 20 damage off: Your maximized empowered intensified fireball would do 60+5d6(average 17.5)+.5*10d6(average 17.5)=95 on average even with the harsh interpretation, for a still respectable 147 damage in a round.
Well, maximize and empower do not stack, as it explicitly says under Maximize Spell. However, that distinction is not made with Intensified Spell, so I would say that both empower and maximize stack with intensify.
But, I have no plans to take Intensified Spell at this moment. I may do so at mythic levels, if our campaign goes that high. But I don’t plan to take it right now.
Edit: To be clear, you can stack both maximize and empower, however, you can’t maximize the empowered portion.
Are we sure that Maximize stacks with Intensify, and Empower stacks with Intensify, like that? Are the bonus dice from Intensify improved by other metemagic feats? I ask because Maximize and Empower explicitly do not stack. One implication is that metamgic feats do not modify each other. (I think RAW could be seen either way, so this is probably an "Ask your GM to be sure" situation).
Not stacking only shaves about 20 damage off: Your maximized empowered intensified fireball would do 60+5d6(average 17.5)+.5*10d6(average 17.5)=95 on average even with the harsh interpretation, for a still respectable 147 damage in a round.
This has been discussed before, but the short answer is that it stacks and it is because of the wording.
Intensify doesn't modify the dice rolled, it simply allows up to 5 levels more of dice. The feats that DO modify dice rolled play along nicely.
Ok, since I haven’t received any more input on my build in regards to my feats, I take it most feel it is a good build?
If you have better feat ideas, or a better order in how I have the feats chose, please suggest away. But if you do have a suggestion on a different feat, please recommend what you would take out. There are several feats I want to take, but not sure which ones I would want to switch out with.
Thank you.
Ok, since I haven’t received any more input on my build in regards to my feats, I take it most feel it is a good build?
If you have better feat ideas, or a better order in how I have the feats chose, please suggest away. But if you do have a suggestion on a different feat, please recommend what you would take out. There are several feats I want to take, but not sure which ones I would want to switch out with.
Personally I prefer Piercing Spell and Persistent Spell to the Spell Penetration chain. You should also check out Spell Specialization and try to work it in as early as possible.
Would you like to see the standard feat progression for a blaster sorceror on these boards? I have saved the build because blaster builds come up. It gives you a good idea of what spells and feats to take. It doesn't mesh perfectly with an arcane bloodline, others are better for doing extra damage, but it gives you a good set of guidelines to follow.
==Aelryinth
Personally I prefer Piercing Spell and Persistent Spell to the Spell Penetration chain. You should also check out Spell Specialization and try to work it in as early as possible.Ok, since I haven’t received any more input on my build in regards to my feats, I take it most feel it is a good build?
If you have better feat ideas, or a better order in how I have the feats chose, please suggest away. But if you do have a suggestion on a different feat, please recommend what you would take out. There are several feats I want to take, but not sure which ones I would want to switch out with.
Thank you for the suggestions. However, once again, there are several feats I want to take (including a couple you suggested), but the difficult part is picking what feat(s) to take out to make it (them) fit.
Would you like to see the standard feat progression for a blaster sorceror on these boards? I have saved the build because blaster builds come up. It gives you a good idea of what spells and feats to take. It doesn't mesh perfectly with an arcane bloodline, others are better for doing extra damage, but it gives you a good set of guidelines to follow.
==Aelryinth
Yes, that would be great, please do post it. But please keep in mind, it is not a 100% blaster build. With the craft feats, and taking some control spells, at higher levels I would say it will probably be more 70/30 in favor of blaster.
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Paizo BLASTER CASTER build:
Goal: Pile on the hurty-hurt with direct damage spells. You don't need battlefield control if the enemy is dead.
Level 1: Take Sorceror: Crossblooded Orc/Draconic, Human, take Varisian Tattoo, take Trait: magical Lineage (pick spell), Reactionary (+2 Init)
Then take Wizard/Evoker -Admixture Specialist for your remaining levels. Why Admixture? Because you can change the element of any of your blasting spells on the fly to get around elemental resistances/immunities.
If you want to superspecialize outside of Evoker, take Sin Magic, lose two schools (Conjuration/Abjuration), gain yet another spell slot per level of raw power.
Key Feats: Intensify Spell, Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, Spell Perfection, Spell Penetration, Spell Specialization, Greater Spell Specialization.
End result: Crossblooded sorc orc/dragon bloodline 1, Wiz/19, Admixture Evocation specialist.
Note: Can use Sin Magic for more slots. Sorcerer level allows use of spell devices from denied schools (Conj/Abjuration).
Magical Lineage Trait allows Intensify for free on chosen spell.
Spell Perfection allows free Quicken at higher levels.
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Play Hints:
Take Burning Hands or Magic Missile as a Specialized Spell early. Burning Hands will deal more damage, Magic Missile has better long-term utility and keeps you out of danger. Every other level, you can change your specialized spell.
Add Greater Spell Specialization at level 7 or 9. Why? You can then memorize utility spells, and trash them for your blaster spell.
Change your specialized spell up to Scorching Ray or Fireball when you can, depending on campaign, typically at 5 or 7.
At level 12 or higher, change it to Fire Snake.
Use Admixture specializing to change the element on the fly.
Use Fire Snake until higher levels. Why? High damage base and level 5 spell still leaves room for metamagic, esp Quicken.
Mechanics behind Choices: Orc blooded, Draconic: +1 to all damage spells, +1 to element of choice, retasked by Admixture = +2 dmg/die on blasting spells.
FEATS
Intensify Spell: Increases caster level damage cap +5 to apply to a specific spell. Burning hands goes up to 10d4+20. Magic Missile goes to 7d4+7. Fireball to 15d6, Fire Snake to 20d6+40.
Empower Spell: Increase dmg by 50%.
Quicken Spell: Hit enemy with two spells/rd.
Spell Specialization: +2 to caster level with a specific spell. Helps bring the damage earlier and faster.
Varisian Tattoo: +1 to Caster level with a specific school (Evo). This buys off your sorc level.
Greater Spell Specialization: Sacrifice spells to power your chosen blaster spell. Means you can memorize utility spells freely.
Spell Perfection: Doubles fixed feat bonuses, apply one metamagic for free. An Empowered/Intensified spell with Magical Lineage is still its original spell slot. SPell Penetration doubles to +4. Varisian Tattoo to +2. Spell Specialization to +4. Effectively, you've got +10 on Spell Resistance rolls, and are casting at 5 levels higher then your own.
Top End Damage: 30d6 +60 from Fire Snake, empowered, Intensified, average 165 dmg, save 1/2, level 5 slot.
Quicken for another hit, 5th level slot, 20d6 + 40dmg, avg 165.
= 330 blasting dmg in one round, save for 1/2. If you've a Rod of Maximize, you can lift this to 215 base damage.
Base level 5 spell slot is 20d6+40 dmg, 165 dmg.
BY LEVEL
At level 1, your Burning Hands should be 2d4+4 (avg 9)
At level 2, its unchanged.
At level 3, Spell Specialization kicks in. 5d4+10 (22.5). This tops it unless you Intensify it.
At 4th, 6d4+12 (27), Intensified BH.
At 5th, Intensified BH, 7d4+14 (31.5).
At 6th, you can shift Spec to Scorching Ray. 2x 4d6+8 (44). Your Fireball is 5d6+10 as well, or 7d6+14 if specced.
At 7th, 6d6+12 fireball, or 8d6+18 if spec. An Empowered, Intensified Burning Hands, if still the spec spell, is 13.5d4+27 (about 60).
8th - Empowered Scorching Ray, 2 x 6d6+12. E/I BH is 15d6+30 (74, max)
9th - Intensified, Specialized Fireball is 11d6+22 (51).
10th - Firesnake. E/Spec Fireball is 15d6+30 (74). Emp Scorching Rays are 3 x 6d6+12, or 18d6+36 (99 dmg). You can now Quicken a Burning Hands or Magic Missile as kicker damage in a round, although you've few slots.
12th - E/I/Spec Fireball is 21d6+42 (115) damage. You can now Quicken a 12d6+24 Scorching Ray.
14th level - A Specialized Firesnake now exceeds/equals an intensified Fireball. Fireball caps at 22.5d6+ 45 (123~) damage. An Empowered Firesnake is 24d6+48 (132) damage. You can now Quicken a 10d6+20 Fireball. Intensified, Empowered Scorching Ray tops out at 24d6+48 (132 dmg)
15th level - Spell Perfection. You can now add a Meta for Free. This will be Quicken or Empower. Intensified might be free if Magical Lineage applies to it. Caster level buffs for spec spell exceed +5, so top out at 20d6 dmg at 15th level. You will miss Spell Resistance rolls against CR appropriate enemies on a 1.
Assuming Firesnake, you can now cast a Quickened Intensified Firesnake for 20d6+40 (110) damage out of a 5th level slot, and an Empowered Firesnake out of the same slot for 30d6+60 (165) damage. Using a 7th level slot, you can Empower both.
16th+ - Damage remains the same, higher level spell slots are open for use of other Metas or control spells.
Conceivably you could use Disintegrate to get a higher damage total, but the delay isn't worth it, and you'd lose the Varisian tattoo bonus.
If your DM allows you Twin Spell from 3.5, you can very, very easily clock in at 495 raw dmg/round. IF he allows Arcane Thesis, god help your enemies.
==+Aelryinth
Note this is a sorc/wiz build, but should give you some ideas.
If you want blaster damage as an arcane bloodline, you'll probably have to take Cross-blood orc/elemental/draconic.
The key thing is level bonuses for your favored blasting spell, and cheap metamagic. Spell Specialization+ varisian Tattoo + Spell Perfection is a VERY strong combo (+6 to caster level at level 20 with your best spell...usually firesnake).
==Aelryinth