Without rewriting the system, there are some classes that need more stats than others. Monks and paladins, for instance. So here's how I'm thinking point buy should work for classes. Single-classed only, of course; if you allow multi-classing, this will fall apart.
Monks: 18 Wisdom, 22 point buy.
Paladins: 18 Charisma, 18 point buy.
Fighters & Barbarians: 18 Strength, 16 point buy.
Bards: 18 Charisma, 16 point buy.
Rangers: 18 Wisdom, 16 point buy.
Rogues: 18 Dexterity, 16 point buy.
Clerics & Druids: 18 Wisdom, 13 point buy.
Wizards: 18 Intelligence, 13 point buy.
Sorcerers: 18 Charisma, 13 point buy.
Thoughts?
Part of the point of Point Buy is that all of the characters have roughly equal stats, as opposed to one character having really high scores, one having really low scores, and the rest of the characters somewhere in between. This change removes that completely.
Also, rogues are missing from your list, as are rangers and barbarians.
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Why do paladins get 18 Wisdom when they do not use Wisdom for any of their class abilities?
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Your idea completely strips away class versatility for hybrids and nerfs paladins. Please don't tell me you're serious about half of the things you post on this forum.
Also burn the fighter.
Why do paladins get 18 Wisdom when they do not use Wisdom for any of their class abilities?
I can't tell either, maybe to try and prevent dump-statting? I kind of like characters being slightly varied and imbalancd in stats.
Every PC does not have to be a super-human in all aspects (much greater than >10 in everything) when they are just starting out. This game should, in my opinion, never be a competition between player characters who decry being weaker than our friends.
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Why do paladins get 18 Wisdom when they do not use Wisdom for any of their class abilities?
Another egregious mistake is that he seems to think that all classes needs 18 in their primary stats to do well, despite the entire game being built on the assumption of a max of 17 in a single stat. Generally it's a good idea to understand a system before modifying it, although it's clear that advice has been thrown out the window a few times.
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MAD classes get more class abilities and more class skills to make up for the fact they need for more diverse stats.
Classes ARE balanced.
Also, your idea is pushing most of these builds past 30 point buy. Talk about DM's nightmare.
What if I want a social rogue, who is Charisma based instead of Dexterity based? Or a skill monkey rogue (Intelligence instead of Dexterity)? Or play my fighter as an archer (Dexterity instead of strength)? Or my ranger as an archer (Dexterity instead of Wisdom)?
If you really want to give the different classes different amounts of point buy, then just give them different amounts of points. Don't choose a stat for them. Its not the DMs place to tell the player what score my character has the highest.
Why do paladins get 18 Wisdom when they do not use Wisdom for any of their class abilities?
I'm drunk.
What if I want a social rogue, who is Charisma based instead of Dexterity based? Or a skill monkey rogue (Intelligence instead of Dexterity)? Or play my fighter as an archer (Dexterity instead of strength)? Or my ranger as an archer (Dexterity instead of Wisdom)?
Then put your points into those stats. Nothing is stopping you from doing so; I merely gave everyone a leg-up, especially considering that the basic point buy is 15.
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There is nothing wrong with less than 18 in a prime stat. Try it out.
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PFS used 20-point buy, which I use in my game. I think you will find very few people use 15-point buy. NO ONE uses 10, Tom.
Master Arminas
There are no requirements for specific stats to qualify for a class therefore you can be anything with any stats.
You can certainly whine about sub-optimal stats but it's still fair.
There are plenty of NPCs out there with a lot of 10s.
Point-buy is one of, if not the least unfair method of determining starting attributes. You cannot be this silly.
I'd prefer to actually have control over my stats rather than be screwed by dice rolls, and ruin my concept as well.
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I find the best method is to simply get rid of stats altogether -- that or give everyone straight 20s.
Point-buy is one of, if not the least unfair method of determining starting attributes. You cannot be this silly.I'd prefer to actually have control over my stats rather than be screwed by dice rolls, and ruin my concept as well.
That's why you have 4d6 reroll ones, drop lowest.
There's not a single build that doesn't work for.
Average of 14 for *all* stats and quite a lot of 16+s? Yes please.
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Point-buy is one of, if not the least unfair method of determining starting attributes. You cannot be this silly.I'd prefer to actually have control over my stats rather than be screwed by dice rolls, and ruin my concept as well.That's why you have 4d6 reroll ones, drop lowest.
There's not a single build that doesn't work for.
Average of 14 for *all* stats and quite a lot of 16+s? Yes please.
Last time I was in a group that tried that, I ended up with only a single score over 13. Point-buy suits me FAR better. It allows me to play with my friends, who roll 18s all the time, without feeling like I'm a waste of space.
To be fair, there is actually unfairness in point buy, because the costs are weighted toward the middle. Completely fair would be 1 point for 1 point all the way up to 18.
Point-buy is one of, if not the least unfair method of determining starting attributes. You cannot be this silly.I'd prefer to actually have control over my stats rather than be screwed by dice rolls, and ruin my concept as well.That's why you have 4d6 reroll ones, drop lowest.
There's not a single build that doesn't work for.
Average of 14 for *all* stats and quite a lot of 16+s? Yes please.
That assumes you roll decently. Now some GM's will allow you reroll until you get a decent score, but that kind of defeats the point. If there is minimum threshold just go with that, which is basically what point buy does.
I would rather have a stat-array than roll.
As long as there is a 20 point-buy, can probably be done with 15 also, all classes should function well enough. As long as everyone is performing well then it is not really worth the effort. If you get a decent player he will do fine, and if the player is not that good he won't do well, and the any new point rule won't save him anyway.
The reason I said 20 first is because I don't like 15. That is a personal issue though.
What if I want a social rogue, who is Charisma based instead of Dexterity based? Or a skill monkey rogue (Intelligence instead of Dexterity)? Or play my fighter as an archer (Dexterity instead of strength)? Or my ranger as an archer (Dexterity instead of Wisdom)?Then put your points into those stats. Nothing is stopping you from doing so; I merely gave everyone a leg-up, especially considering that the basic point buy is 15.
Why do some characters need to buy their prime stat (archer fighters, archer rangers, skill monkey rogues, social rogues, etc.) and some get theirs for free?
If you absolutely must give the character an 18 for a leg up, then let the player choose what score it goes in. The character still get their free 18, and their various point buys, but you aren't forcing a high stat onto a character that a player may not want. (I know - its surprising to some of you. Not everyone tries for the highest scores they can get. Not everyone wants to play an archer fighter that could bench press an ox. So why force them to?).
And remember, the game (3.0/3.5)was designed around a certain set of assumptions - one of them was stats being roughly around the 25 point buy (3.0/3.5 point buy). That would be equivalent to a Pathfinder 13 point buy. Your changes give the characters a minimum of 30 points (equivalent to a 3.5 point buy value of 42.) With these changes, your breaking an already broken game even more.
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Any "unfairness" that may exist has nothing to do with point-buy (or any stat generation method). It has to do with how the classes are designed. Some work just fine with one or two scores, others need more. Point-buy was designed to give all characters an equal footing. If the individual classes mess that up, then fix what is really the problem - the classes themselves.
As it is, all primary spellcasters base their entire spellcasting on one single stat. Change that. Instead of wizards basing their entire spellcasting ability on intelligence, how about: a wizards spellcasting ability is based on intelligence (he needs a score equal to 10+spell level to cast that spell, like normal), bonus spells per day are based on wisdom, and save DCs are based on charisma (charisma seems to be all about imposing your will on others, anyway. sounds like a good stat for save DCs.)
Do something similar with the other casters (clerics, druids, sorcerers). Use Charisma for save DCs, and either Intelligence or Wisdom for bonus spells, with the other stat as the one required to cast spells of a certain level. IF you think needing 3 stats are too many, then only use 2: Charisma for save DCs, and either Intelligence or Wisdom for bonus spells and for casting your spells.
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Hi Tom,
This time I honestly believe you are trying not to incite chaos.
The whole tone of your post is completely different.
I will honestly share my opinion. It is more than a little overpowered for my taste, but I am one of those few GM's that Master Arminas mentioned which prefer the 15 point buy. The iconic characters in the AP's are built on 15 point buys. I figure if it is good enough for them, it is good enough for the PC's, espescially since I am currently running back-to-back AP's. But that is just my opinion.
I get the impression that you probably play in a much higher powered game than many of the people who post here. Not necessarily a majority, mind you, just many. That is not a bad thing, it simply means the rules in the game are almost certainly stressed to or beyond their capabilities. I am not saying it is wrong, or broken or anything else. I am just saying it is different than many of us are used to seeing and our personal experiences have taught us (many of us over decades) that at that power level of play the rules come unglued pretty quickly. That ends games prematurely, and frequently results in player/GM boredom/burnout for many, many reasons. That is just my two cents though and that is why many of us here choose to avoid these difficulties completely by working quite diligently to maintain that even-keeled "balance" we rave on about. I know you cannot see this from where you are standing, but trust me, if you dial down the power level about three notches to, say, the 20 point buy and concentrate on observing the mechanics of the game for a pre-published module or two(and I am absolutely certain your math skills are up to this challenge) you will probably witness many of the issues you are having with the system smooth out right before your eyes.
Remember, the whole point of the game is to have fun. Thats why we all play. Play the way that is the most fun for you, and seek out players with the same interests and preferences. That way you build a group of players who contribute to the dynamic that you all enjoy.
Best of Luck,
Weslocke of Phazdaliom
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That was quite possibly the most meaningful, well-written post I have ever seen on this forum...
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Monks: 18 Wisdom, 22 point buy.
Paladins: 18 Charisma, 18 point buy.
Fighters & Barbarians: 18 Strength, 16 point buy.
Bards: 18 Charisma, 16 point buy.
Rangers: 18 Wisdom, 16 point buy.
Rogues: 18 Dexterity, 16 point buy.
Clerics & Druids: 18 Wisdom, 13 point buy.
Wizards: 18 Intelligence, 13 point buy.
Sorcerers: 18 Charisma, 13 point buy.
Thoughts?
I'd definitely want to avoid the mandatory stat thing. Thanks to Selective Channeling, and an abundance of cleric spells that don't require saving throws (since they are heals or buffs or whatever), I find that a high starting Charisma is more important to a Cleric than a high starting Wisdom. (You need *at least* 16 Cha, as an evil cleric, to be able to channel negative energy without harming your three other party members, in a four man minimalist party, and that's assuming that nobody has a familiar, animal companion, mount, eidolon, etc!)
Combat druids, who spend their spells buffing themselves and / or their companions, and use less resisted spells, also have less use for Wisdom than they do Strength, Dexterity or Constitution.
Similarly, as a Ranger, I find a high Dexterity much more likely than a high Wisdom. Str Monks and Dex Fighters and whatnot will also be a problem.
Thanks to the Paladin changes in PF, the only class I consider to be truly MAD these days to be the Monk. *If* I was going to implement a change of this sort (and I'm not convinced it's warranted), it would be to give the Monk a few extra points in his point-buy. Three, perhaps, or five, at most.
But really, the only change to point-buy I'd make, would be to eliminate (or at least halve) bonus points for negative attributes. I kinda hate dump stats.
Without rewriting the system, there are some classes that need more stats than others. Monks and paladins, for instance. So here's how I'm thinking point buy should work for classes. Single-classed only, of course; if you allow multi-classing, this will fall apart.
Monks: 18 Wisdom, 22 point buy.
Paladins: 18 Charisma, 18 point buy.
Fighters & Barbarians: 18 Strength, 16 point buy.
Bards: 18 Charisma, 16 point buy.
Rangers: 18 Wisdom, 16 point buy.
Rogues: 18 Dexterity, 16 point buy.
Clerics & Druids: 18 Wisdom, 13 point buy.
Wizards: 18 Intelligence, 13 point buy.
Sorcerers: 18 Charisma, 13 point buy.Thoughts?
Wow, people constantly amaze me with their ideas and interpretations. To be fair to Tom, he's right...if you look at the issue from a certain point of view. Not my pov, but obviously his pov. And his "fix" is not a good idea.
If you want to do something to balance the MAD classes, I might do something like add ability due to class as well as race. Just as dwarves get +2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom and –2 Charisma, let classes get a given stat bonus. With certain weaker classes being given more. Something like;
Strong classes(tier1) +0
Moderate classes(tier2-3) +2 "prime" stat
weak classes(tier4-5) +2 "prime" stat, +2 any stat
I wouldn't use this, I like to use point buy or stat arrays. Just tossing this idea out there.
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Without rewriting the system, there are some classes that need more stats than others. Monks and paladins, for instance. So here's how I'm thinking point buy should work for classes. Single-classed only, of course; if you allow multi-classing, this will fall apart.
Monks: 18 Wisdom, 22 point buy.
Paladins: 18 Charisma, 18 point buy.
Fighters & Barbarians: 18 Strength, 16 point buy.
Bards: 18 Charisma, 16 point buy.
Rangers: 18 Wisdom, 16 point buy.
Rogues: 18 Dexterity, 16 point buy.
Clerics & Druids: 18 Wisdom, 13 point buy.
Wizards: 18 Intelligence, 13 point buy.
Sorcerers: 18 Charisma, 13 point buy.Thoughts?
Awful.
I think your fundamental premise is out by a long, long way. On top of that your assumption is that the character will follow a set pattern. What of the wizard who starts as wizard and wants to go mystic theurge? For rangers and paladins, many are fighting classes first and spell-casters second, they don't want or need 18's in their casting stats.
Point buy is not unfair, it works just fine in most cases. Most classes need two decent stats, a primary and a secondary, and point buy allows them that.
Paladins: Strength & Charisma
Fighters & Barbarians: Strength & Constitution or Dexterity
Bards: Charisma & Intelligence or Dexterity.
Rangers: Wisdom & Strength or Dexterity
Rogues: Dexterity & Intelligence
Clerics: Wisdom & Charisma
Druids: Wisdom & player's choice
Wizards: Intelligence & Dexterity or Constitution
Sorcerers: Charisma & Dexterity or Constitution
The only exception is the Monk, who needs 3-5 decent stats to function without a huge feat tax. That's bad design of the monk, not the system.
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Point-buy is one of, if not the least unfair method of determining starting attributes. You cannot be this silly.
I would argue that nothing is more fair than a balanced set of dice, but it seems I have a different concept of fair. I only use point-buy if a character is being made out-of-session.
Certain character concepts do not work well with a point-buy, and the OP has a point that multi-class characters and certain core classes are not helped by the point buy system.
Actually, this kind of gets me thinking that point-buy is indicative of a certain mindset, if the first concrete thing you do for your character is fiddle with numbers.
If you want to do something to balance the MAD classes, I might do something like add ability due to class as well as race. Just as dwarves get +2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom and –2 Charisma, let classes get a given stat bonus. With certain weaker classes being given more. Something like;
Strong classes(tier1) +0
Moderate classes(tier2-3) +2 "prime" stat
weak classes(tier4-5) +2 "prime" stat, +2 any statI wouldn't use this, I like to use point buy or stat arrays. Just tossing this idea out there.
If you want to do something for MAD classes and think giving them additional stats is the way to go (which I don't think) then solution would be to give them a bonus for some stat that is NOT their primary stat.
And to be fair, that would benefit every class.So I'd instead give every class a +2 stat increase and rule which stats they may but it into.
Something like
Fighter (Cha, Wis, Int)
Rogue (Cha, wis, str)
Cleric (Int, Str, Con)
Paladin (Int, Dex, Wis)
Monk (Int, Con, Cha)
etc.
Or you could limit how high the stat may be before you put that increase into it (after applying racial stat mods) like max 13.
How does this system work with non-standard builds (Dex-based/Archer fighters, social rogues, combat bards, etc.) or with multiclassed characters? What about archetypes? Some archetypes change the "primary" stat for classes. How does giving everyone different amounts of point buy going to make things better? What's to stop me from going Monk then Fighter, taking my free +4 to Will saves, Perception, and other skills, along with 4 extra points to buy my stats?
This is not a good idea in the slightest. I looks like you are trying something similar to the 1E Unearthed Arcana where each class had a certain number of dice for each ability but in the end all classes had the same number of dice (at least that's how it was supposed to work out). However multiclassing worked very differently then than it does now.
How does this system work with non-standard builds (Dex-based/Archer fighters, social rogues, combat bards, etc.)
I aksed this already, and it was answered.
What if I want a social rogue, who is Charisma based instead of Dexterity based? Or a skill monkey rogue (Intelligence instead of Dexterity)? Or play my fighter as an archer (Dexterity instead of strength)? Or my ranger as an archer (Dexterity instead of Wisdom)?
Then put your points into those stats. Nothing is stopping you from doing so; I merely gave everyone a leg-up, especially considering that the basic point buy is 15.
The point buy system already tries to balance MAD characters by having a sliding cost scale. If you feel that MAD characters are still disadvantaged then I would suggest making the scale more pronounced.
I removed some posts and the replies to them. Flag it and move on, please.
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If you actually wanted to do this. The only classes that this is a issue for is the MAD ones. So if I was to do it. I would just give a set bonus to the secondary key stat. Say a +4 wis to monks(with a max of 18 after the +4) for example. Other than that leave the point buy the same.
This is not really something I would do but if I was I would try and come up with something like that as a fix.
How does this system work with non-standard builds (Dex-based/Archer fighters, social rogues, combat bards, etc.)I aksed this already, and it was answered.
What if I want a social rogue, who is Charisma based instead of Dexterity based? Or a skill monkey rogue (Intelligence instead of Dexterity)? Or play my fighter as an archer (Dexterity instead of strength)? Or my ranger as an archer (Dexterity instead of Wisdom)?
Then put your points into those stats. Nothing is stopping you from doing so; I merely gave everyone a leg-up, especially considering that the basic point buy is 15.
The way it is currently set up, every rogue will start with an 18 Dex, every fighter with an 18 Str, every sorcerer with an 18 Cha (even if he's a sage when he should be using Int).
I think this system is very bad. It first assumes that characters can only survive with an 18 in their primary stat, which is false. It then assumes some classes need more than others. What it doesn't do is take into account balance in the slightest.
The point buy system already allows one to put points where needed. There isn't any need for added complexity. If he wants to run a higher powered game, then simply give more points.
Pretty much. Most MAD classes deliver enough back in terms of abilities to make investing in them well worth the effort.