The way it is currently set up, every rogue will start with an 18 Dex, every fighter with an 18 Str, every sorcerer with an 18 Cha (even if he's a sage when he should be using Int).
Since when does a sorcerer ever use Int? Never.
It first assumes that characters can only survive with an 18 in their primary stat, which is false.
No, that's just me being generous.
It then assumes some classes need more than others.
An accurate assumption. Monks, for instance, need Strength for their attack rolls and damage, Dexterity for AC, Wisdom for AC, and Constitution for HP. On the other hand, fighters need only three of those states.
The way it is currently set up, every rogue will start with an 18 Dex, every fighter with an 18 Str, every sorcerer with an 18 Cha (even if he's a sage when he should be using Int).Since when does a sorcerer ever use Int? Never.
It first assumes that characters can only survive with an 18 in their primary stat, which is false.No, that's just me being generous.
It then assumes some classes need more than others.An accurate assumption. Monks, for instance, need Strength for their attack rolls and damage, Dexterity for AC, Wisdom for AC, and Constitution for HP. On the other hand, fighters need only three of those states.
This is why I tell people not to implement house rules most of the time. There are often little things that are missed and that can have a bigger impact on the game than originally intended.
I actually mentioned the sage archetype in my question so that you would know what to take into account.
If you want to be generous, instead of giving everyone an 18 in what you consider to be their primary stat, just run with 30 or 35 points and let the players decide how they want their stats. It's their characters anyway.
And yes monks require more but they get more out of it late game. Not to mention they get certain defenses the fighter never does (spell resistance), better saves all around, vastly greater mobility, and a pretty solid amount of utility.
The reason I argue they're weaker usually is that they're still worse in combat to trade off for speed and utility, but frankly a full caster is needed on every team and will beat them in utility every time.
Pretty much. The monk loses out in not being able to get full enhancement on their primary attack, unarmed strike, and get through DR late in the game. Their other class features are nice, but often do not work together very well or require a feat-tax to work properly at all.
The class that reaps the MADness harvest in full is the paladin.
The way it is currently set up, every rogue will start with an 18 Dex, every fighter with an 18 Str, every sorcerer with an 18 Cha (even if he's a sage when he should be using Int).Since when does a sorcerer ever use Int? Never.
Don't mistake your style of play for everyone else's. As it has been noted most of us think 18's are not needed.
Spellcraft, Knowledge Arcana, Intimidate, Bluff, Fly, and UMD are all decent sorcerer skills. With only 2 base skills points a higher int would be needed to get some of the others. Yeah you could use your favored class point if sorc is the favored class, if you don't want the hp, or if you are no using them for something else.
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I'm drunk.
This explains so much about you...
The way it is currently set up, every rogue will start with an 18 Dex, every fighter with an 18 Str, every sorcerer with an 18 Cha (even if he's a sage when he should be using Int).Since when does a sorcerer ever use Int? Never.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paiz o---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/sage
Sage Sorcerers use INT, bro.
I think I'd prefer to just have a standardized list of stats for everyone in a group. Maybe give everyone something like 16, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, so classes that require multiple stats can be fairly well off and those that require one or two can be a bit more well rounded. That would be a 32 point buy btw.
Paladins aren't very mad. They need Strength and Charisma high. Constitution doesn't need to be that high with swift action self healing and great saves, and due to lack of armor training, high dex isn't what you usually go for (unless archer, but then con can be used as more or less a dump stat and strength doesn't need to be as high). They can also dump wisdom pretty easily, and they don't have a very great need of skills either.
Monks are the most MAD in my opinion, directly followed by rogues.
I DO see a point in giving Monks higher stats than others - after all, it's in flavor with the "physical and mental perfection" - but I'd rather give it throughout the levels than simply a higher point buy since they're already a good dipping class. Granting a +1 to their lowest ability score every three levels (choose if they are tied) might work to make the MAD class actually have decent stats in all stats.
If you want to improve the point buy in terms of MAD vs. SAD, consider increasing the exponential costs of stats. If, for example, an 18 costs 8 points above a 17, that'll benefit those that prefer two 16's.
point buy already covers MAD fairly well, since multiple fairly high scores are cheaper than a single very high score. Also magical items with multiple lower bonuses will end up being relatively cheaper than one with very higher bonuses.
If you increase point buy MAD classes will relatively gain more power, if you do not want to do that you could change the cost of point buy a little instead.
10 to 15 - 1 point
16 to 17 - 2 points
18 - 3 points
dumping stats :
+1 per point lower than 10, makes total stat dumping slightly less attractive.
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I enjoy the 15 point buy in general for all classes, especialy with having to 'dump' to reach higher stats giving a feel of characters not being all round perfect. I used to find in our groups in 3.5 (based on the 4 d6 drop one method) players often used to end up with 2 18's and be a bit to op and never roll under 10, because people, dice and love of fiction seem to create less than believable results. We tried to use the array system which worked better but it always limited our none combat builds or players image of what there character should be.
The points buy system my group all found a great relief, it gives the players the choice of being a min max character or well balanced and it gives the GM control of the power of the characters to scale there game against.
I relay do not like the basic concept of this max stat + points, as it seems to add an imbalance both from the DMs perspective of managing characters, and the players perspective of fairness. Although in your eyes it brings a balance perhaps mechanicaly, although i doubt that personaly. In my eyes it brings unbalance and removes the image of fairness from plays as at level one the guy who has a 22 point buy in will have a definite edge over the lower buys.
Each group to there own, but me and mine are happy with point buy and don't want to mess with it.
You know, not every 1st level character needs an 18, a 19, or a 20 in one or more starting stats. I've played plenty of character that didn't start (after racial mods) with more than 16 in anything (and everything else was 14 or less).
Master Arminas
Meh, I've had characters whose highest stat was a 14. It's all relative.