Which school? I use a lot of both transmutation and conjuration.
Conjuration has plenty of damage spells and great school powers (and subschool powers).
Transmutation has many very useful spells and enhancement offers free bonuses to yourself and allies -- not huge however -- it isn't the perfect choice but it is solid enough.
For first level:
Burning Disarm or Snapdragon fireworks
Second level:
Pyrotechnics is very nice, or any of the alternate entry method spells
Third level:
Fractions of heal and harm is highly useful, and Excruciating Deformation is very nasty stacking penalties and giving damage while slowing the target
Fourth level:
Firefall for a quick choice, Obsidian flow if you think your opponents will be landbound
Fifth level:
Echolocation -- so nice I would take it twice, telekinesis
Beyond that are plenty of other choices -- I simply grabbed the fast and easy for transmutation.
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But if i get conjuration i loss out on evocation which has some of the best spells for the class?
Conj has an amazing sub school,
If i look at transmutation i loss illusions which is one of the core of the class....
Necromancy and Enchantment i take the least hit of my spell selection
But Necromancy school and sub school abbiltes are lackluster.
Spells:
0) Dont loss anything of importance
1) Loss: Shield, alarm, pro from, Sleep, charmp person,
Gain:
Chill Touch x2 or Ray of enfeeblement x2 or ray of sicknessing x2
2)Loss: Arcane lock, Pro arrows and resist energy. Hideous Laughter
GaiN: False Life,
3) Loss: Dispel Magic, Explosive Runes, Nondetection,Suggestion, hold person, heroism
Gain: Vampiric Touch
4) Loss; Confusion
Gain: enervation
As for transmutation: Slightly better rang touch attack, and its force which is really nice. Not better then Evoc, conj or div tho.
Your spells are good but your losing a lot of stuff also.
0) ghost sound
1) Loss: Sleep, charm person, Silent img, vanish, color spray, disguise self.
Gain: Burning Disarm or Snapdragon fireworks
2)Loss: Hideous Laughter, blur, invisibility
GaiN: Pyrotechnics, Alter Self, Knock,Levitate,Spider Climb,
3) Loss: Suggestion, hold person, heroism
Gain: Fly, gaseous form Excruciating Deformation,
4) Loss; confusion Invisibility, Greater, Shadow Conjuration
Gain: firefall,
After looking at 2 of the schools
I am still wondering if its a blue rating.
for transmutation U loss the invis line and gain a good spell at each level that's usable...
Is it worth having a sub par school powers, losing the invis line for the ability to cast some extra utility spells?
Does the transmutation utility spells you gain worth the utility spells u loss from Illusions? As far as i understand blur and vanish and inadvisability are some of the main ways to get sneak spells.
It depends partially on your method of picking up sneak attack -- if you take alchemist you can cover some of the missing with that.
Ghoul touch is a nice one for necromancy by the way.
Conjuration would be the easiest pick for me, evocation has some nice spells early game but over all I wouldn't say I'm hurting to have them.
Consider the following in conjuration:
0th level:
Acid Splash
1st level:
corrosive touch
Mage Armor
Grease
2nd level:
fiery Shuriken
Acid Arrow
Glitterdust
stone call
3rd level:
Ice Spears
Pellet Blast
Conjure Deadfall
4th level:
Acidic Spray
Corrosive Consumption
Geyser
and so on.
I understand not wanting to lose spells known. However you have to consider the across the board picture -- can you utilize the extra spell slot effectively?
Can you cover the deficit of the spells lost with other spells?
In the case of losing Evocation the answer is a resounding yes. You might not be able to do so with just one school, but you can do so with multiple schools.
Illusion is the hardest one to give up, but illusion alone is not required to effectively use the arcane trickster (as many creatures are going to be able to pierce invisibility anyways).
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I see your point of alchemist /sin wizard being blue. The alchemist makes up for what the wizard losses, thus retaining versatility (from both guides and reading every post on both guides, it seems to be the strongest point of the class.)
But I don't see it working with the tiefling Cut purse/thug 3, wizard 1, ATx early entry to the class because of the loss of invisibility line and the huge versatility of combining two of the most versatility classes.
Whats your thoughts on gaining sneak atk at higher to get invisibility against those that can pierce invisibility/blind sight ex?
At higher level there are a couple of choices:
Greater Feint is a move action leaving the standard to sneak attack with a spell and works at range.
Flanking is still an option if not exactly exciting.
Pyrotechnics can inflict blindness, as can the spell blindness and several other methods -- blindness is good against most foes (but not against blind sight).
Smoke sticks can help too -- true sight won't see through mundane smoke -- if you have the means to do so then they can't plan for your attack.
There are a few other means to flatfoot (or deny dex) an opponent without needing to be invisible -- dazzling display is an option too.
Several of these are charisma base which can be a problem of course, but look for other work-arounds and I'm sure you can find them (mind blank helps kill most divination by the way and can help invisibility work still).
However something to note:
IF you are uncomfortable with an option, or are unsure on how to work around a loss then the choice isn't blue for you... and that's perfectly alright! It is better to have a 'lesser' choice that you use perfectly than the 'better' choice that you can't use well.
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What are your thoughts on Early entry vi the tiefling spell like ability (so r/v 3, w1, ATx) Vs r1/v w4, Sleepless detective 1, ATx.
and does obeuring mist block true sight?
levitate/fly blocks Tremorsense .
Buying potions/wand for umd that block the smell would be good on scouting missions where u think there would be dogs exc (another point for the Alc)...
I have not plaid a scout at higher lvl the 5 and i was a pure rouge back in 3.5 core only.
I remember hearing about a game that my friend who was dming it told me about His lvl 10 pure Pathfinder Rouge went scouting ahead on a mission from the town about a "monster that lives in the caves in the north that eats women and children whole after visting there papa in his tome."
He stealthed in at half movement in this Gargantuan cavern/tunnel and then out of no ware, he was eaten whole by a Purple worm!
Everyone at that game store used that example as how scouts shouldnt be played as they need to stick with the party or die.
I was really attracted to the AT after reading both guides as it seemed i could play my rouge and scout ahead using magic for help/protection.
planning is everything for the extremely versatile class to work, and i want to make sure i do all my homework so I am not used as an example of how it dose not work and everyone at the game store knows I failed at it.
I have played rangers, wizards and fighters mostly sticking with the party besides that low lvl rouge which was a one shot.
So I am not use to tatics, preps for a scout type guy or tricks.
Scouts need to be played carefully, and plan ahead -- eaten whole isn't a huge deal for an arcane trickster since you can teleport out.
People that don't like scouting won't like scouting...
Obscuring mist probably won't block true sight since it's magically based and true sight sees through that. Sometimes the best tricks are mundane.
I'm not fond of the spell-likes are like spells exactly crap so I tend to ignore it.
Since the earliest you can get in is 5th level (need 4 skill ranks) I would suggest:
Sorcerer 1/ Ninja 3
or
Wizard 1/ Alchemist 3
It does make the magus/arcane trickster/eldritch knight a bit more appealing since you can hit all of the AT by level 14 leaving 6 levels to help with the BAB (putting you at a staggering +13... still)
Honestly I don't think it really changes that much since the hardest part has always been the sneak attack, and there's no real way to jump the shark on that.
I took Hellcats Stealth on both of my AT's, and it was boss.
That being said, I come bearing terrible news. Paizo has officially destroyed the AT:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qqm
I have played a Sorcerer/Ninja/AT to 17 and a Wizard/Rogue/AT to 14(Who I was able to use rebuild rules and early entry rules, as he was a tiefling, to just catch his capstone) . After this ruling I can say I can see no way either of them would have been viable. This makes me very sad as they ruined my favorite class(ish thing). I was planning my third one using early entry when I found this ruling. It saddens me beyond belief.
@Blzn -- Thanks. Tactics and strategy are two big concerns for me and I think a lot of people overlook how much they have to do with 'effective' play.
@Avoron -- I would have to do some research on the matter and quite frankly haven't had the time to do so. It is worth the investigation, however I would point out that anything with a fly speed (or similar speed mode) wouldn't have an issue with this at all. With that said you would be correct to use this to point to the concentration checks for casters and potentially disrupt some spells just from the storm itself. Which as a tactical option might be worth a look. There is probably better uses for spell perfection than ice storm but it is likely not the worse option either.
As nice as that is I have to say it's not a spell I would recommend for the arcane trickster normally.
As far as first level spells go it has the sort of duration I like and it's a bonus on several useful skills and the initiative bonus is a neat little boost. However the bonuses are very small, and competence bonuses are easy to come by and they don't stack (it's the most common type of bonus to gain from non-magical items and from magical items for skills). This is especially problematic because a competence bonus at +5 for perception is very cheap in the magical item category meaning you will likely already have a bigger bonus from another source on the primary ability of this spell.
The initiative bonus is problematic because of how the spell works -- if you end the spell you gain the bonus but initiative can change from round to round, and the spell doesn't say the bonus lasts for the entirety of combat so it could be an one round bonus
This is the sort of spell I call a burner spell. You burn a slot for a boost to something you can already probably do and in the case of the arcane trickster can probably do well. It's not providing a new ability, it's not extending your abilities and the one really useful thing about it is something you can get from items easily.
This spell is great for a wizard (bard, alchemist, ranger also have good love for this) or someone that has the spell slots to exchange a low level slot for the effect of a magical item. Unfortunately by the time an arcane trickster can really afford the slot to use this spell the bonus is small enough to not be so useful anymore.
Now as a low level wand or scroll this is really nice if you find it...
but for an AT it's not high on my "cast this yourself list."
TL:DR -- Low level can't afford the slot for such common bonus types, high level too small of common bonuses, wouldn't recommend for an AT.
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A half-elf with drow magic (or a charisma focused tiefling variant) could make a sexy Ninja 3/ Eldritch Scrapper Sorcerer 1/ AT 1/ Evangelist of Calistria (advancing the AT) 10/ Sorcerer 5
Martial versatility could mitigate some of the pain from the feat slot spent on deific obedience. The Evangelist PrC could help keep both skill points and BAB from falling too far behind. Plus this character gets the benefits of Calistria's boons which all synergize with Charisma ( even capping on an ability to redirect magic spells cast on this character with a perform check). You get all that and still progress AT as if at ECL 6.
Alright -- that follows I like the logic. However I still wouldn't really recommend the spell except as magical item material for the rest of the stated reasons. An arcane trickster (at least how I'm used to playing them) doesn't need to burn a spell to support skills (it's the opposite of what I recommend in fact) and a spell that is then burned to provide a boost to initiative for one fight simply isn't worth the spell slot.
Don't get me wrong it isn't a bad spell -- it's just not one I would recommend for the arcane trickster because his spells should:
1. Do or bring him something new.
2. Be multi-use that isn't skill focused (a reason I don't recommend spider climb, jump, or the like).
3. Doom an encounter or stack effects on his sneak attack (preferably with multiple rounds of use).
This spell helps with number 2, but it's skill focused (a penalty in this case for spell usefulness for the arcane trickster) and it's burned for a bonus for one combat.
Again I like the spell overall. I would recommend it for a bard or wizard or something, but not the AT.
If the guide is ever updated for Advanced Class Guide, it should mark Arcanist as Blue.
It has spells like the wizard, Int based, exploits that do ranged touch for damage (so they work well with Sneak Attack), and are highly customizable. Occultist would even allow you to summon in blockers or flanking buddies when you need them, although that would get in the way of using the exploits for ranged touch attacks.
A rogue type with dimensional slide and force strike would be deadly.
Vanish is the one I like out of those choices -- you can get out of an immediate area and then sneak attack so it can serve double purpose and it's a first level spell.
I didn't see this get pointed out earlier, and if it did, I apologize, but:
You can't get SA to Fiery Shurikens more than once per turn, as per the "Volley spell and SAs" FAQ.
Unless I'm wrong. I could be. But I get the feeling that Fiery Shuriken (Fired as one action) falls under the Scorching Ray Volley FAQ.
To be fair, however, I do assume you can use SA on all your Swift Action uses of Fiery Shurikens up to once per round. So it might do more damage over several rounds than Scorching Ray. Also, it synergizes with Arcane Strike (Assuming it works?... are these attacks Rays?
Aside rule Q: If you target multiple enemies with one Standard Action use of Fiery Shuriken do you get SA to each one? Or just against one of the targets? God, I hate that FAQ so much. They should just retroactively get rid of all the weird rule nerfs of precision damage so we don't have rules induced headaches like this.
A few things to add:
Half-Elf is a very solid choice for an Arcane Trickster for one reason: Drow Magic racial trait. This gives you Darkness (2nd level arcane) as an SLA and can therefor qualify for AT at 5th level. This gets you access to AT a minimum of one level earlier (or, more realistically, 3). I'd much rather start my path down AT earlier rather than later. But that's a preference of mine; I don't like super late bloomers in builds, Level 5 is the max I usually shoot for a build "coming together" so to speak.
Arcane Strike is a GREAT feat for a blaster focused AT since it applies to rays and other ranged weapon-like spells. (Does this work for Fiery Shuriken? Who knows.)
Also, Orc Bloodline seems pretty insane since it scales very well. Most other Sorcerer Bloodline stuff seems kind of "meh" since your effective Sorcerer level won't be that great. But Orc Bloodline only cares about damage dice, which you have in spades. (Another rule aside: Does SA tacked onto a spell gain this bonus per die damage? I remember reading somewhere that SA tacked onto a spell is considered part of the spell and does the same damage as the spell, but I could be wrong or mixing systems again)
If the guide is ever updated for Advanced Class Guide, it should mark Arcanist as Blue.
It has spells like the wizard, Int based, exploits that do ranged touch for damage (so they work well with Sneak Attack), and are highly customizable. Occultist would even allow you to summon in blockers or flanking buddies when you need them, although that would get in the way of using the exploits for ranged touch attacks.
A rogue type with dimensional slide and force strike would be deadly.
Occultist seems like it would be sweet, but it won't progress very well since it's keyed off of your Arcanist level and not your caster level. I do like Dimensional Slide, though. And there are other benefits to the Arcanist, like their spellcasting system being a little more flexible than Sorcerers. Dunno if it is better than Orc Bloodline, though, even if your SA don't get the bonus.
Arcane Bloodline is still the best choice. Choose a familiar to receive +4 on initiative. I'm playing d20 (D&D3.x/Pathfinder) by the last 8 years (or more) and acting first increases the chance of victory on the combat. For the AT is almost mandatory to win the initiative.
Yeah, Familiars are great. I'd still rate Orc higher than all the other non-Arcane bloodlines except maybe Sylvan and Sage for specific AT builds.
Also, as a tangent, I find initiative extremely important for certain characters (casters mainly), and almost negligible for others. Sometimes my martial type characters don't care that much about initiative since they would delay anyways to try and get a Full Attack against an enemy that runs up to them. Obviously this varies from martial to martial and level range since some builds have pounce at various levels, or SA, or their GM lets them cycle Quick Runner's Shirts or what have you. But there are plenty of times on my Investigator or Inquisitor that I don't care THAT much about initiative (though they do both have Combat Reflexes which does make it less painful to be low in the count).
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Alternate ACG path to Arcane Trickster:
4 lvls of Stygian Slayer - can cast Invisibility, 1d6 sneak attack, full bab, other stuff
1 lvl Snakebite Striker Brawler - 1d6 sneak attack, full bab, other stuff
1 lvl of any caster class that can cast Mage Hand (Magus is good)
The Stygian Slayer Invisibility counts as you 2nd lvl or higher arcane spell
Enjoy all that sweet BAB
Occultist seems like it would be sweet, but it won't progress very well since it's keyed off of your Arcanist level and not your caster level. I do like Dimensional Slide, though. And there are other benefits to the Arcanist, like their spellcasting system being a little more flexible than Sorcerers. Dunno if it is better than Orc Bloodline, though, even if your SA don't get the bonus.If the guide is ever updated for Advanced Class Guide, it should mark Arcanist as Blue.
It has spells like the wizard, Int based, exploits that do ranged touch for damage (so they work well with Sneak Attack), and are highly customizable. Occultist would even allow you to summon in blockers or flanking buddies when you need them, although that would get in the way of using the exploits for ranged touch attacks.
A rogue type with dimensional slide and force strike would be deadly.
I hadn't considered that the SLA wouldn't scale. You are right, the AT levels wouldn't help with the summons. Ignore what I said for Occultist. The other exploits would still be useful as a platform for delivering sneak attacks.
The Arcane Reservoir size may still pose a problem though. Levels in AT wouldn't grow it.
Alternate ACG path to Arcane Trickster:
4 lvls of Stygian Slayer - can cast Invisibility, 1d6 sneak attack, full bab, other stuff
1 lvl Snakebite Striker Brawler - 1d6 sneak attack, full bab, other stuff
1 lvl of any caster class that can cast Mage Hand (Magus is good)The Stygian Slayer Invisibility counts as you 2nd lvl or higher arcane spell
Enjoy all that sweet BAB
Nice catch! If someone were looking for a more martial bent AT this is a good chassis to start with.
Another oddball chassis to play with from the ACG: The Cult Leader Warpriest. You gain 1d6 SA at level 3. You could do something like Half-Elf WP 3/SA Class 1/Caster Class 1/AT. I don't know if it's any good, but it's certainly cool.
Also, Snakebite Striker Brawler allows you to go Brawler 1/SA Class 1/Caster 2 for an early entry into AT which gains you one more Effective Caster Level without the normal loss of BAB from Rogue or Ninja 1/Vivisectionist 1. Again, not sure if this is better than the more traditional routes since both Rogue and Ninja bring a lot to builds involving this PrC. But a bonus to your casting is a bonus to your casting...
My current thoughts on using the Arcanist:
Intelligence is worth more than charisma for you as an arcanist. Don't get suckered into the damaging arcane exploits -- you won't have the levels to make them good.
Good Exploits:
Potent Magic is a great choice however as you can increase both your caster level and DC for a swift action which is going to be very useful to you.
Dimensional Slide is a alright choice as well. Normally you won't get teleport abilities until later and the action economy is right for this one.
Consume Magic Item is iffy. If you get plenty of items why not but otherwise I would just be sparing on when you use up your points.
School Understanding isn't bad if you can choose a subschool like teleport, admixture or foresight.
Archetypes:
Stay away from unlettered (wrong spells for you), occultist and white mage (too costly).
Eldritch Font isn't terribad, but be careful of that third level power and respect the lost of the spell known each level. The level 7 power is nice to come back to after you max out arcane trickster but that will be really late game and still leaves you fatigued.
I wouldn't take blood arcanist (too few levels), school savant isn't horrible but eats up your exploits until fifth level which hurts, in return you get to have a full on school (possibly subschool) from a wizard with an extra spell known each day which is nice.
Element focus is too specialized.
Twilight Sage seems to be worth it. Twilight barrier is meh, but the ability to consume death instead of spells to get your points back is useful, especially since you know, adventurers kill things fairly regularly. There are plenty of decent necromancy spells to prepare too so the focus isn't too hard to live with (chill touch at level 1 for example).
So...
Twilight Sage is green
Eldritch Font is Orange
School Savant is orangreen
School Understanding is orangreen
Consume Magic item is orange at best
Dimensional Slide is green
Potent Magic is greenblue
Arcanist as a whole? Greenblue. It's not a bad option, but limited spells per day is hard to love and it's MAD. Not horrible so though and it's rather front loaded so making it work is fairly easy, and potentially really rewarding.
Thoughts on New Sneak attack options:
SnakeBite Striker -- If you are going to mix it, it isn't bad. It offers two good saves and full BAB so alright.
Slayer -- Alright so I'm a bit more excited about this. Full BAB and 6 skill points with the two good saves is nice. Even better is the fact you can get talents... but the ability to take precise shot with nothing else at second level is potentially really useful. Extra slayer talent just seals the deal. I can get trapfinding, free precise shot, and slowing shot. It's a shame some of the other talents aren't available but that's not bad. Waiting until 3rd level for the sneak attack just might be worth it.
Possible build to look into:
Snakebite striker 1/Slayer 3/Magus 4/Arcane trickster "x"
Cons: Late entry, small spell list endgame includes choosing between 6th level spellcasting and 15 BAB.
Pros: Armored casting, Starting BAB of +7 with possible max of +15, full attack sneak attack spell combat combo. With a focus on Dex with an aldori dueling sword or some such could be Dex/Int focused, strong fortitude and reflex save. Action economy is strong.
Second Possible build:
Slayer 3/Greensting 4/Arcane Trickster "x"
Faster entry, still good saves, Sneak attack suffers from greensting being once round and costing arcane pool points.
Third Possibility:
Snakebite 1/Greensting 4/Arcane Trickster "x"
Fastest so far with least caster level lost. Still good saves, skill points suffer, as does out of combat abilities.
Feats to consider:
Amateur Investigator, Studied Combatant, Improved Studied combatant -- Chain allows bonuses to multiple things easily, is non-magical and can give +4 to hit and damage in melee. 3 feats is expensive likely to be late game choices and again melee.
Slashing Grace -- Melee, but if you are going to better to reduce the number of stats you need. Potential choice for magus, no penalty for the extra damage. Could work well with arcane deed.
LoneKnave
I always love trying to find new things, but in this case that will not work:
At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on).
This ability replaces bomb.
Since snakebite brawler gets sneak attack the vivisectionist would stack levels with snakebite.
Meaning you won't get your second die of sneak attack with just two levels (you need a combined 6 levels).
You would be better off with three levels in alchemist.
Hate to necro but it feels less dirty being on a guide thread.
As a note on LoneKnave's build:
Evangelist can only apply to a class that was leveled prior to taking Evangelist 1. I like the thinking but sadly won't work for AT so well.
Hope this is an OK place to ask this but it seems appropriate,
What about an aasimar (angel blood) rogue 1/brawler(snakebite striker) 1/ Arcanist 2/trickster **
Yes its only +10/+5 Bab you end up with but its going to be touch attacks, plus a few exploits are still pretty good with not many Arcanist levels invested, and if you continue on in Arcanist you end up with the high end spells
The reason I ask is Abe's sample builds above seemed more martial and I wondereded if going more caster for the trickster is no longer ideal?
Can't I put ranks in knowledge arcana as I level in rogue and brawler? They just wouldn't be class skills. So when I finish the 2 levels in Arcanist I would have 4 in each of the pre req skills?
Or what am I missing?
Yes I saw that FAQ, however, and maybe I'm grasping here, but I read it differently.
Let me use the mystic theurge as an example...it states you need to cast 2nd level arcane and 2nd level divine spells...so yes, the new FAQ does affect them...
But the trickster states, cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level....
So, my semantics skills may be weak, but to me, the SLA would indeed still work for the trickster?
Never mind... I just reread the FAQ. My bad
Hope this is an OK place to ask this but it seems appropriate,
What about an aasimar (angel blood) rogue 1/brawler(snakebite striker) 1/ Arcanist 2/trickster **
Yes its only +10/+5 Bab you end up with but its going to be touch attacks, plus a few exploits are still pretty good with not many Arcanist levels invested, and if you continue on in Arcanist you end up with the high end spells
The reason I ask is Abe's sample builds above seemed more martial and I wondereded if going more caster for the trickster is no longer ideal?
My above was simply looking at new ways to do old things more or less.
The Magus should be one of the first places to look for better combinations into arcane trickster because it's abilities combine well with arcane trickster (namely the ability to full attack and cast a spell at the same time, giving more opportunity for sneak attacks).
With the above build you would have 7 BAB at level 8, and after the AT levels you would have 13 BAB at level 18 with a caster level of 14, meaning you are coming in right at where your BAB would have been for the Magus anyways, but you are adding 7d6 more damage (hopefully) to each hit and the spells he casts.
With that said I think Magus 4, Snake Bite 1, Alchemist(vivisectionist) 1 with 10 AT and then 4 EK would work too.
For those more interested interested in BAB you could do greensting magus 4 with snake bite 1 AT 10 and then EK 5 giving 14 BAB and caster level 18 at level 20.
Honestly it comes down to just what you think you want out of your build.