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...And we're back! A while ago, I put out my base class: The Engineer, v 4.0. Now, after collecting some playtest data, as well as giving the class some time to settle (I was very excited about it when I put it out, and needed time to see its flaws), I'm back with version 4.1! If you're familiar with the last version of this class, you'll find this one a bit weaker. 4.0 was a little front-loaded, and had some pretty nasty powers from the get-go. I tried to alleviate that here.
For those of you new to the show, however, here's the basic rundown of what you're looking at:
And, as always, here's your handy-dandy pdf, readable and downloadable via google docs: The Engineer v4.1
As always, constructive criticism and all forms of feedback (especially playtest data) are much appreciated.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
I'm going to wait a bit before updating the artificer list, in case there's another update :)
What about an option for people who don't want an automaton?
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I've read over the document, and thing that the over-powered aspects come more from doing too much at once rather than it being entirely front loaded. By making the player wait until level 4 to get the automaton, you lose some of the class build and flavor at earlier levels. By reducing the base HP of the construct as well as stripping some of the automatic powers (like Armor and Swift Reactions specifically) it won't be as overpowered at first level, nor at higher levels. Some of the other engineer abilities seem great alternatives for archetypes.
Singularity sounds like an amazing ability for a Living Construct archetype (or just Cyborg). Rather than having the automaton at all, allow construction points to be used to upgrade yourself. This would be not quite as powerful (possibly) as a Powered Armor archetype, but you wouldn't lose it as soon as the armor's temp HP was diminished.
To solve the issue of gaining too many functions between you and your automaton you could have the player make the decision on where to install new functions: himself or the automaton. Then when you get Share Function, you can swap them back and forth but have it take 1 minute or something. An ability like Modular Components would let you swap them quickly (swift or move action). At higher levels, you could allow all functions to simply exist on both the engineer and the automaton.
I'm gonna have to fully look over this later, but after looking it over with a quick skim I have a friend I know will just fall in love with this class.
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What about an option for people who don't want an automaton?
I sent these to Chris but he hasn't responded. Here's a few changes to the Share Function line of things to help it be not so OP:
Hot Swap Modules (Ex): At 9th level, if the engineer is adjacent to his automaton, he can transfer one function to or from the automaton as a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Duplicate Functions (Ex): At 14th level, the engineer does not lose access to any transferred functions.
Those are important because they get changed again by the following archetype:
Armor Tech
Armor techs are less interested in mindless constructs, and focus more on creating powerful suits of armor that will change the face of warfare. Instead of creating an automaton, they craft a specialized suit of powered armor for themselves.
While fused with his automaton, the armor tech uses the automaton’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The armor tech gains the automaton’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the automaton is destroyed and immediately falls to the ground around the armor tech. The armor tech uses the automaton’s base attack bonus, and gains the automaton’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The armor tech also gains access to the automaton’s special abilities, including clockwork features, and the automaton’s upgrades. The armor tech does not gain the automaton’s artifice pool, base functions, nor any of the automatons immunities. However, he does gain a +2 circumstance bonus to saving throws against abilities constructs are normally immune to. The armor tech is still limited to the automaton’s maximum number of natural attacks. The automaton has no skills or feats of its own. The automaton must be at least the same size as the armor tech. The automaton must have limbs for the armor tech to cast spells or use weapons if the armor tech can, and wishes to do so. The automaton’s temporary hit points can be restored with the make whole spell.
While fused, the armor tech loses the benefits of his armor. He counts as both his original type and as a construct for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the armor tech. Spells such as heat metal or repel wood work normally on the automaton. Neither the armor tech nor his automaton can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The armor tech and automaton cannot take separate actions.
While fused with his automaton, the armor tech can use all of his own abilities, gear, and functions except for his armor. In all other cases, this ability functions as the engineer’s normal automaton ability. This ability replaces the class’s automaton ability.
The following class abilities function differently for armor techs:
Customize Armor: The armor tech may customize either his own armor or the powered armor, but not both.
Gadgeteer: The armor tech may integrate his worn gadgets with his powered armor, or may wear them underneath. If he chooses to wear them under his powered armor, then he gains no benefit from them as long as he’s wearing his powered armor. If he chooses to integrate them, then he only gains their benefits while wearing the powered armor. This only affects gadgets, not other magical equipment.
Armorsmith (Ex): At 2nd level, the Armor Tech gains a bonus equal to ½ his level on Craft(Armor) checks and can craft magical armor as if he had the Craft Arms and Armor feat. This does not give him the ability to craft magical weapons or shields. The engineer uses his Armor Tech class level as his Caster Level to meet the requirements for crafting magical armor. He increases the DC of crafting magical armor by 5 if he does not know the appropriate spells, as normal. This ability replaces Technologist.
Fused Link (Ex): Starting at 4th level, the armor tech learns to take a hit with his powered armor. Whenever the temporary hit points from his powered armor would be reduced to 0, the power tech can, as a free action, sacrifice any number of his own hit points. Each hit point sacrificed this way prevents 1 point of damage done to the powered armor (thus preventing the loss of the powered armor’s temporary hit points), preventing the powered armor from being destroyed. This ability replaces Share Function.
Auto-Equip (Ex): At 9th level, an armor tech is able to don his powered armor as a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces Hot Swap Modules.
Call Armor (Ex): At 14th level, an armor tech is able to use his omni-tool to summon his powered armor to him as a standard action. The powered armor will use any movement modes available to it to reach the armor tech. It will use the most direct route available to him, including attempting to break through doors and windows with strength checks and moving past creatures, provoking attacks of opportunity. If it cannot reach the armor tech in a number of rounds equal to his intelligence modifier, it drops to the ground and this ability cannot be used for 24 hours. If it reaches him, the armor tech may don it as a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces Duplicate Function.
Autonomous Armor (Ex): At 19th level, as a move action, the armor tech’s power armor can separate from the armor tech and act on its own. The powered armor emerges in a square adjacent to the eidolon if possible. All effects and spells currently targeting the fused armor tech-powered armor affect both the armor tech and the powered armor.
The armor tech can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to his armor tech level. He can end this effect at any time as a move action. For the duration of this effect, the powered armor functions as a normal automaton of the armor tech’s class level.
This ability replaces Exoskeleton.
Enjoy!
What did you find op about it?
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Honestly the v4.0 was fairly OP because of all the things the engineer got on top of having a full blown construct. Using the full construct rules for the automaton gives it tons of immunities, a base of 20 hp plus 1d10 per HD, plus the clockwork sub-type gives 2 free feats and a +2 dodge bonus.
These changes don't address those OP factors, but it at least gives a non-pet archetype for the original.
My changes would be to remove the immunities to stagger, stun, and mind affecting effects as a special rule, then allow them to be added over time. Just as the eidolon gains evasion and improved evasion over time. Eidolon base forms all gain a base of +2 natural armor without taking any evolutions. I would let the clockwork subtype's +2 dodge bonus take its place. The Improved Initiative and Lightning Reflexes aren't a big deal. Also, the automaton currently gets 1 good save and 2 bad saves. I'd change it to all bad saves; this helps to balance the immunity issue as well as matches up with the construct archetype. Lastely, I'd specify that automatons are made of wood and metal and therefore are subject to spells that affect those materials.
I don't think that moving the automaton to 4th level makes up for these deficiencies. All it does is give you a relatively gimp'd pet rather than an engaging class feature.
I meant what did you find about Share Function that was OP?
Or was your comment above about OP meant to be interpreted as "The class is overpowered, and these fixes to shared function would help a bit."
It already specifies that it is made of metal, so that's not an issue. Spells and effects that affected metal already affect it.
I've been following the evolution of this class since version 2.5 (and am the one sending the playtest data to Delvo). Originally, it was a special type of construct that wasn't like others. It didn't have immunity to a lot of effects, etc. There was this weird "bio-nervous system" thing going on as the reason for it.
I really disliked it. It's a construct! But wait, it actually isn't! Well, time to go check for the 20th time what it's actually immune to since it's not using the same rules as every single other construct in the game. It's a much cleaner (and better) design now that it's 90% the same as any other construct, with the only major differences being that they get feats and that they don't have all bad saves.
I agree that it needs to have all bad saves like other constructs.
The robot was moved to 4th level to make the class not so front loaded. They got a lot of things at first level, and something with ~25 HP at that level is pretty powerful. Granted, 25 HP at level 4 isn't so great.
Something I did when trying to make a "from level 1" construct pet was to give it 2 HD to start with, but only give the bonus HP from size at class level 3. This made its average HP line up with what a creature of that level should've been.
I wasn't asking about an archtype. I was wondering about an option more like arcane bond, where you can choose a familiar or item.
Wow. People are actually posting here.
So...let's go in order of whatever I feel like, shall we?
Andrew's Mods: I have received your modded version and am in the process of writing a review for it. Here's my response regarding the stuff you've posted here:
Your version of share function, which is just a re-hash of a previous version I used, was scrapped before because it opened up a lot of OP doors that I didn't want to open (like forking over something like Overshield and then just sitting back and watching the slaughter).
Additionally, the Armor Tech archetype needs some clean-up. The beauty of the Synthesist is that it's summoning an almost-ethereal version of its eidolon around itself, allowing it greater powers. With this, you're actually wearing your suit. Accessing gear and equipping items becomes a questionable issue, at the least.
Your version of the automaton (con score, fewer immunities, etc.) is exactly what I was trying to get away from. It just gets confusing after a while, and doesn't really fit with the flavor of the class, quite frankly. One of my design philosophies has always been that if defaulting on previously-established systems would make things simpler, then do so. Paizo has already established some really strong construct rules, as well as a good system for Clockworks. By going back on that and saying "Well, this construct is different!" just so you can add your CON score to HP feels a little pretentious, which is exactly why I revoked the concept.
Cheapy: Since it seems to be a pretty strong consensus here that the class should have all bad saves, 4.2 will likely have that difference.
And I would argue that 25 HP at level 4 for a companion seems fine to me, especially when comparing it to something like the ranger, whose companion should have around 10 HP at that time, if it's lucky. Granted, the automaton is intended to be more integral to the class than the ranger's companion, but it's not the be-all, end-all of the class, like the summoner's eidolon.
The automaton is intended to be a partner, not an extra party member, and I think that its level 4 arrival currently does a good job portraying that concept.
That being said, we can argue about what goes where until the trumpets sound and it'll get us nowhere. Only playtest data will provide true evidence.
Azten: I definitely see where you're coming from with the request at turning the automaton into some kind of "Mechanical Bond"-type ability, so the engineer can choose to have a companion or something else. And I, for the most part, agree with you. I think it should. More choices means more possibilities.
I just don't know what I should replace it with. If you or anyone else has any ideas for an alternate, simplistic idea with which to replace the automaton, I encourage you to throw it up here.
~~~
Thank you, everyone, for all the feedback. It appears that I do have some work to do with this class, yet, but thank you so much, just the same.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
The most immediate thing that comes to mind is a weapon. I'm thinking of the Blade Bound Magus' black blade as a good building block for the idea.
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tl;dr
If it's a full construct, then level 4 is probably a better place for it, but I want my toy at level 1 damnit! I'm playtesting my archetype using modified v4.0 rules.
If the goal of the eidolon is to be a ranger pet, then a 4th level start seems ok. It will end up being half as useful as it is now. It'll also make the Armor Tech build a bit difficult, as you don't get the spiffy powered armor at level 1.
I think the biggest problem is that you don't want the automaton to be just a metal eidolon and I do. I suppose that's the main reason I was attracted to this class... but that's an entirely different issue.
A 1 HD construct without any extra feats, construction points, artifice pools or anything else is already decently strong. It's immune to charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, phantasms, bleed, disease, death effects, necromancy, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, energy drain, nonlethal damage, anything that works on a fortitude save, and massive damage. It gets 20 extra HP for existing, and it doesn't need to eat, sleep, or breathe.
Downsides? Crap for skills, none of them class skills, and it's not proficient with any weapons or armor, but it already has a nasty slam attack.
These are the problems with trying to make a 1st level construct companion without making it overpowered. Which makes me sad. Very sad. Quite sad. So... I can see how you want to put it at level 4, but even then it's insane. At level 4 you just give it skilled perception and no one else needs to take watches. Once you're high enough level you can make it the party vehicle (that flys!) and travel 24 hrs a day without lifting a finger: "Cogsworth, take us to the next dungeon. We're going to play this dice game on your back."
That being said, to make it "work" at 1st level without my inner GM (and my actual GM) wanting to beat me bloody with the Core book, I had to make some changes. The CON score isn't so that I can be a pretentious fool and add a few extra HP, it's as a replacement for the 20 bonus HP. I suppose that could be a single exception... it's a construct without bonus HP. Problem is the list of immunities that are a mile long. Maybe if it couldn't be healed by anything but make whole, then that would be an ok balance... but even then.
...I now realize that I've typed way to much, which is why I'm going to add the tl;dr at the top. I'm going to playtest a revision based off of v4.0 I made with my GM using the Armor Tech archetype and I'll let you know how it goes. So far we've been in 3 fights with normal and fast zombies and I've blown through 4/5 of my artifice points. Freaking bludgeoning slam attacks.
A metal eidolon combined with the other things this class can do will most likely be marginalizing to other players and thus overpowered. The summoner is not a great class to compare to others for balance reasons as it's too variable and too easy to make overpowered.
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Right, and that was my point. As a construct, it's way overpowered.
Summoners can be overpowered, but if their eidolon dies they're out of tricks. The engineer doesn't have that flaw, mostly because of the Death Ray or Grenades.
I believe that the engineer's automaton has to be less effective than an eidolon, not more effective. It should also feel more techno, where as the eidolon feels like a smart pet.
[quote Cheapy]The summoner is not a great class to compare to others for balance reasons as it's too variable and too easy to make overpowered.
All classes can be overpowered depending on how you build them; it's all situational. Rogues are OP if you use the sap adept/mastery/enforcer/shattered defenses build. But throw something immune to nonlethal at them and they're underpowered. Summoners are OP with the right build, but a dismissal spell and they've got nothing to show for it but "Summon Monster" which is not nearly as effective.
One thing that could help is if you had to constantly command the mindless construct. Swift action to command it? Doesn't hold you back entirely, but if it's also a swift action to switch functions, now you're battling that resource as a player. Good? Bad? Thoughts?
I obviously don't agree with your bit on the summoner, but that's a topic for another thread and I'd rather not sully this one anymore than I already have :)
Anyways, I think the command idea is a nice one.
When working on my construct-pet-from-level-1, I had it count as if it had 2 intelligence for the purposes of handle animal, and that the only way to command it was Handle Animal. This meant he started knowing 6 Tricks. He also gained 7 bonus tricks over the course of his progression. This was for a flesh golem, so handle animal made some sense.
This was a flesh golem, so handle animal actually made some sense. For this guy, I could see using Craft (clockwork) or Knowledge (engineering) to command him (probably Craft (clockwork)). Give him Link so he can handle the robot as a free action, and push as a move action. Keep the +4 too.
Maybe by spending a week working on the robot, and some pittance (50 gp per level of engineer?), they can change the tricks known. If there's a GP cost, then probably a scaling number of tricks he can change. If it's just time, then 1 trick at a time.
I suppose that the druid's handle animal is keyed to an off-stat for them, so it might be a good idea to drop the +4. My thought process for using Craft (clockwork) is because I thought knowledge engineering would be "too good", and this is meant to be somewhat of a restriction. If they get half their level to the skill, having to put ranks in the skill to be effective is not really a restriction, and more of a formality. Granted, the main cost of Pushing is probably the Move action.
But in the end, I'm a big fan of "Keep it the same, or very different", so I'd just throw in the +4 to reduce confusion, and make it Craft (clockwork). They have more than enough skills to put some ranks there.
I personally do not see a thematic reason for that, and I think the general rule of "whatever the mindless construct was doing last" would suffice.
Something to handle them being powered down during night time would help solve that issue...
Clearly we need solar-powered robots :p
I suppose that as long as they aren't super powerful, the constant watchguard could be on purpose. Changing the Winding to last only a few hours is an option, however that messes with the clockwork template quite a bit. But perhaps it is the best option.
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Part of the reason for it is the mental link. Part of it is balance. The other class feature companions stop when you're defeated in one regard or another. I suppose making them continue their last command isn't the end of the world.
Craft(Clockwork) would work nicely then. This also gives more weight to the Robotics upgrade. By finally giving them an intelligence score (and therefore a mind) you can give them complex tasks and such. No more reliance on "tricks" and commands.
What do you think about the construct just standing there after completing its last command? Thematically if you have to command it to do everything, then without commands it should not function.
"Kill the tall gobliln!"
The construct starts beating on him.
The short goblin stabs you in the head; you fall unconcious.
The construct continues to beat the tall goblin into a pulp.
Once dead the construct stands, waiting for a new order.
The short goblin then starts to stab the construct... who does not react.
Hurray mindless automatons!
TBH, I don't think the animal companions just stop whatever they're doing and runs away whenever the druid or ranger or whatever goes down. The bond is stronger than that. I'd at least expect them to continue on, or to rush to the defense of their buddy.
I suppose "Link" does have some implications like that, hm.
I'm willing to wait and see what Delvo thinks about it.
Okay, so I had a long, drawn out post that was a response to Andrew before this conversation started. And I now see that most of what I was going to say is basically moot.
First off, I love that we're having this discussion, because I'm working on version 4.2 right now (at which point I will be taking a break from working on the engineer in order to collect real playtest data and work on another of my classes).
Second, I'd like to say that Andrew, while I love some of the input you're putting into this, keep in mind that you're working off an older model of the class that YOU have heavily customized, so your playtest data will not be nearly as useful as other data using the updated version of the class.
And finally, let's get to the meat of what everyone is talking about. I'll start with the idea of commanding your automaton.
I definitely like the idea. Essentially using the same rules as the druid's animal companion, replacing wild empathy with craft (clockwork) would be fine. And I think that the +4 from link isn't necessarily overpowering.
I also like the idea of using tricks. It fits with the flavor of the automaton, and I think would work well to help balance it. Cheapy, if you could give me a rundown on how you handled that, I would be quite appreciative.
Now, regarding what the automaton does after the engineer falls unconscious, dies or goes to sleep. I'm inclined to agree with the position that it should continue doing whatever it was doing before the engineer went down, and then stop until given another command. We are dealing with something completely mindless, here. It's not an animal companion who feels loyalty toward its ally, the automaton is a piece of hardware (as cold as that sounds) and has no allegiance. I'd say the only reason it follows the engineer's orders is because that was the way the engineer programmed it.
This does also increase the awesomeness of Robotics.
And...the last big issue seems to be the "watchdog" aspect. Give the automaton skilled perception and just set it to Guard (as the trick, of course) all night, then wind it in the morning. Honestly, I don't really have an issue with this concept. It's only going to pain GMs who love ambushing at night. And even then, a good GM can find a way around it. It does give you a guard dog, but then so does getting a guard dog. And besides, I can think of many other things I'd rather spend my construction points on.
~~~
As I'm writing this, I'm working on version 4.2 of the engineer. Besides the changes to the automaton, which are not fully decided and are part of what we're dealing with here, I do have a couple changes I would like to share.
1) At level 4, the engineer will receive an ability called "Mechanist's Bond" instead of "Automaton". He will be able to select between gaining the automaton and gaining an upgrade-able weapon of an undetermined name.
2) I want to re-name the standard functions you get at 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter. At the moment, there are a lot of abilities that mention functions, but don't really specify which functions they're talking about. Therefore, I want to change the name of the "Function" gained every 3 levels to something more clear, like "Standard Function" or "Common Function" so we don't get confused. Any name ideas would be appreciated.
3) I am removing the Share Function and Improved Share Function abilities, since they don't seem to get much use anyway, and it will be confusing on how they work if an engineer chooses the customized weapon instead of the automaton. Any ideas on what to replace it with will be most welcome.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
Re: tricks.
Looks like I just used the same progression as animal companions. Of course, it needs to start with a few tricks, but with Int -, it doesn't start with any. So I said that it basically starts with 6, as an animal with Int 2 does. Not sure what else would need to be covered that I haven't said already. If you have questions on specifics, I can look it up.
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I understand that my playtest data won't be as relevant to the core class, but I will be able to give valid feedback for a "power armor" type of build. With Mechanist's Bond, you could even have armor be an option, which would eliminate the need for an archetype (since the choice is built into the class).
I can at the very least expose problems, issues, what works and what doesn't work about a build like that.
I also have a friend in another state who's super excited about the class and wants to try it out in the next Pathfinder game he plays. I'll direct him to the v4.2 you're working on.
Replacing Share Function:
Do you need anything there?
What about splitting available gadgets up? Instead of getting your Int mod (which would be 3-5) as soon as the ability is unlocked, you could parcel them out one by one.
The class can do a lot already, I don't know that there's a need to fill it even more.
A major complaint I've seen of this class is that it's not focused enough. I think splitting mechanic's bond into two very different things won't help much with this charge.
A major complaint I've seen of this class is that it's not focused enough. I think splitting mechanic's bond into two very different things won't help much with this charge.
Hate to sound like a pretentious douche, but the unfocused nature is kind of the point.
However, I am nothing if not willing to listen to criticism, so...
I think I'll delegate the weapon to an archetype (sorry, Azten).
Are there any other ways you think I could streamline/focus this class? I'd like 4.2 to be something I can work with for a while, so I don't have to keep revising things the whole time.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
Well, if unfocused is the point, then embrace it. But at the same time...I guess that is what archetypes are for.
I guess that the point is, when you get right down to it, that at the end of the day I want to have built a good class. I don't want to have built "my" class or "your" class, I just want it to be good. I want it to be flavorful, balanced, and mechanically sound.
If I were to break this class down into its basest forms, I would say that its 3 major components are its omni-tool, automaton, and gadgets. Beyond that, the rest is intended to supplement and support those class abilities (except for customize armor...guess I need to think about customize armor's place in the class).
At the same time, each of those major components follow the major theme of the class: customization. You select a prime function, basic functions, and other functions from given lists. The automaton is customized in a way similar to the eidolon. And the engineer is able to customize which gadgets he has access to at any given time.
So in that way, yes. It is unfocused. The question, I suppose, is whether being unfocused is harmful to the class.
~~~
And I just had a big thought. At the moment, the automaton basically functions like an eidolon who happens to be a construct. One goal I have is getting away from that perception.
What if, instead of using construction points to add upgrades to the class, the class just has a list of upgrades which it can choose from. Give it 1 upgrade at level 1, and then 1 extra every couple levels thereafter. It's a simpler system that also feels different enough from the eidolon that I think it could work.
Thoughts?
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
I like that actually. Hm.... what about something similar to Oracle Mysteries and Revelations for this? It could be based on the form of the Automaton.
No worries about the choice to use an Archtype, Christopher, it just means I get to come up with names for the Archtype or the Bonded Weapon class feature and suggest those! :)
Going through the Engineer piece by piece right now, and I'm thinking about changing gadgeteer a bit. Essentially, instead of giving a number of gadgets equal to your intelligence modifier at level 5, you would be able to have one gadget at 2nd level, and then one more every 3 levels thereafter (to a max of 7 gadgets at 20th level). Essentially, building the gadgets more into the class than the character, as well as giving something besides Technologist at 2nd level.
The only problem this creates is a dead level at 5th level, which can easily be filled by something else.
Thoughts?
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
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I'm intrigued by the idea of the automaton updating differently than eidolons. You'd almost have to build out upgrade packages, then choose between those?
The basics are fairly easy: AC / BAB / HD all update in a linear fashion.
Every few levels, you could basically be adding a build template to it. We've got the base builds right now. What if they just gave a thematic group of bonuses rather than solely a base for upgrades?
Tank: +2 Armor, +10 HP, Resistance (choose 1 type)
Agile: +2 Dex, Gyroscopic Balance, Run
Breaker: +2 Str, Improved Attack, Analyze Weakness
2nd tier packages:
Guardian: +2 Armor, Resistance (choose 1 type), DR 2/-
Speedster: +1 dodge, +2 Dex, Agile Maneuvers, +10 base speed
Destroyer: Large size, Trample
3rd tier packages:
Juggernaut: +2 Armor, +10 HP, Resistance (choose 1 type), DR 3/-
.... etc
Not saying these are it, but something like this. Then you're just adding templates that stack rather than construction points and such. It's less customization, but it is different.