The problem I see is that being big and strong should not be the be-all-and-end-all singular feature it is now.
For most maneuvers attempted agaist you, adding size and strength into CMD makes perfect sense. If I am stronger or larger (and thus, heavier), it is more difficult to shove me away, tackle me, whatever. The problems start when, for stramlining's sake, everything is pitted agains that one universal defense.
Is it sensible to assume fighting prowess (aka BAB) and reflexes (aka Dex modifier) are crucial when it comes to stop someone from getting past me. But, just what how fark is being stronger, getting larger (thus needing more strength to move my way around), or having a force field surrounding my body (aka Deflection bonus to AC) supposed to help me in that regard?
On the other hand of the spectrum, why is it supposed to be ridiculously easy to grab a tiny creature (I am not referring to keeping a grab on it once you have it), or to shatter its equipment into pieces... when it is dang hard to actually touch the critter at all?
In my opinion, there should be an, let's call it, agility CMD (which would not contain Str, Size and deflection bonuses), which would the base DC for any tumbling attempts. Downside is, you have yet another combat statistic.
Any combat maneuvers that rely on hitting a target, or part of it with any means of precision (e.g. grab or sunder unless you have established contact otherwise) should have a DC of the target's CMD or touch AC, whichever higher.
At the tail end of 3.5, I house ruled that this was basically how Tumbling worked: rather than being against a flat DC, it was against an opposed roll using BAB + Dex, + special combat modifiers (Combat Reflexes added a +2 bonus to this; Weapon Focus added its bonus as well--I figured it represented martial skill; along with a few other things).
I'd say that CMD - Str - size should work for this purpose reasonably. After all, we have a fairly iconic image of small creatures dodging nimbly around the feat of dragons, and avoiding the grasping hands of giants. You could say that these images are a function of AC to a degree, but in either case, Pathfinder doesn't simulate this well.
I'll say it again... "easy" tumble was required for monk and rogue to work right. If you absolutely need a means to make it harder, use an opposed skill check, probably Acrobatics itself, to make it harder. Or add a high level Fighter class feature to add his level to the DC for tumbling through his threatened area like the 3E Knight class's Bulwark of Defense. *shrug*
Maybe, looking back, I *do* need to post a full list of how pretty much every single other class, especially spellcasters, can move without provoking and ask again why the people who are so against the skirmishing-type noncaster classes doing it are ok with all of the others who can despite it totally not being part of their niche at all.
An element of 3.5 that broke no games whatsoever. In fact, it helped keep a relatively weak class more functional by enabling it to get into combat position without overly punishing it for getting there.
Yes. Thank you for continuing to be the voice of sanity.
But but but I was watching some anime last night and the badass ninja was jumping between his enemies with no problem at all and why that's not in Pathfinder!!!!!1one11eleven
And and and when he swung his swords the enemies exploded and then he shouted HIYAAAA and a demon meteor fell from the sky and kill all bad guys and lol he was like level 4 cuz that was episode 5 of the series and whai dat not in game?
Yes, PF is a perfect simulation of medieval European history, replete with all of the teleporting wizards, shapeshifting Rakshasas, magically built robots...errr...constructs, and reviving people from the dead. It has no place for any of that unrealistic anime crap.
And in turn reach weapons are broken (as in, they don't work properly due to Tumble being so easy). There is a reason that I never once played a polearm wielding character in 3.5, but it is the first PC I am playing now that my group has switched over fully to Pathfinder. Attacks of opportunity actually (sometimes) matter now, thank god.
And as someone who has played at least a dozen reach weapon users in 3E, I'll just say tumble rules were never a problem for me. Most monsters don't even have tumble, and only a small % of people with character classes (which is in itself a small % of possible enemies from the monster manual) can actually afford/reach an automatic success tumble bonus in 3E thanks to cross-class rules. Your hyperbole is irritating, try actually playing a polearm user in 3E and see if your perceptions match reality.
What DID make me feel useless was the casters and outsiders who could fly, teleport, and/or stay far back and just use ranged options. Which...shocker...are still present in PF. It's actually PF where I'd be hesitant to make a polearm user. Trip is badly nerfed; Stand Still is both badly nerfed and now only affects adjacent squares; and the Step Up feat will ruin your day very quickly and any schmuck w/ BAB +1 can have it.
Maybe it's just, you know, something that's generally more difficult to do than jump over a hole.
True but should moving past a dragon be equally as hard as wrestling it?
And that would be fine. I recently made a Scout class conversion from 3E, a class even more reliant on moving safely than rogue and monk, and just straight up gave it non-provoking movement a few levels in. Doing that for monk and rogue as well would be fine. Tumble would still be completely broken for everyone else, but at least the ones who need it most would be able to completely ignore it...
I'd rather fix tumble in some way, though. If not the 3E flat DCs, then something like this. Along with giving rogue and monk a bonus on the checks as a class feature to give them a leg up on it.
Not really, no. CMD on big monsters gets stupidly high, especially at later levels. In some cases that wouldn't even mean a decent chance of success, let alone an automatic chance of success.
EDIT: If you mean that bonus to go along with my houserule suggestion I posted where acrobatics opposes itself instead of CMD, then yeah that'd be plenty enough of an edge.
The people who took the mobility feat should feel bad. It sucks. It sucking is its own fault, not the mobile classes'.
As far as tumbling around super high level or godlike foes... by high levels there really truly are a ton of spells to teleport around or move without provoking anyway, so not liking a rogue or monk who is near epic level being able to move around such creatures seems really silly and unfair.
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Why wake this thread from its five year slumber?
