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Weapons like katanas, battleaxes, etc allow you to use them two handed if desired. If a character takes the Deflect Arrows feat, can he make an attack with his one-handed weapon with two hands and still defend himself using deflect arrows. Since it is possible to simply let go with one hand as a free action (speculative assumption).
If your hand is free when the arrow attack happens, sure.
Example:
You use both hands on longsword, make normal attacks.
At the end of your turn, as a free action you release one hand. You're now wielding the longsword one-handed, and your other hand is free.
You can now catch an arrow, but if something provokes, you'll have to only use one hand when you make your attack of opportunity, as you don't have a free action to put your other hand back on the longsword because it's not your turn.
This also works with a two-handed weapon, except you're just carrying it, not wielding it, and thus can't make an AoO with it until your next turn.
And if an enemy had a held action to use a ranged attack on you as soon as you attacked, you couldn't defect that enemy's attack as you're using both your hands on your own weapon at that moment.
I understand the answer, but doesn't this also cancel out the idea that people are acting simultaneously? I'd be interested in hearing other folks' thoughts on this.
I understand it's a turn based system and it's necessary to depart from reality, but as a GM in my opinion it departs too far. I guess this depends on the GM too.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I understand the answer, but doesn't this also cancel out the idea that people are acting simultaneously? I'd be interested in hearing other folks' thoughts on this.
The entire combat system cancels out the idea that people are acting simultaneously.
You're threatening me, and I 5ft step back and cast, then on your turn you 5ft step up to me and full attack. If we were acting simultaneously, why didn't I provoke (or have to cast defensively)?
You're planning to dive for cover on your turn, but on my turn I full attack with Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Deadly Aim, and Favored Enemy +4 and kill you. If we were acting simultaneously, why weren't you able to get to your cover?
If I cast a spell with a casting time of 1 round, you can attack me any time before my next turn and disrupt the spell before it goes off. But if the spell has a casting time of a full-round action, then it resolves before you ever get your turn. If we were acting simultaneously, why are those two scenarios different?
The list goes on and on. Never try to base a ruling/understanding on the premise that you're acting simultaneously, because that's not really how Pathfinder works.
All of your examples are entirely correct. I think what it boils down to is finding a compromise between the turn based system and some approximation of the heat of combat, combined with considering questions of game balance (awarding players for their choices, making sure some actions are not overpowered or underpowered).
A spell that is a 1-round action was made so by the designers specifically to allow for it to be interrupted. That's a game balance consideration.
But I've been reading the 3.0 DMG recently and I remember it giving an example of a dwarf setting off a trap during a battle. The DMG recommends that the GM not allow the players on their subsequent turns to base their actions based off of knowing that the trap was there, because of the idea that they're acting simultaneously.
That made me realize that there might be some situations where you might want to interfere with the formal rules. On the Deflect Arrows feat, I'm not too familiar with how much it comes up in play -- in the few sessions ive run it would never have been used. So my gut reaction that the answer given feels like an exploit is not something to be concerned about because it doesn't come up very often.
But I guess my question is more general than about this one feat.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It's also not a good idea to base interpretations of Pathfinder rules on unrelated commentary from 3.0 books.
That said, if you want to alter Pathfinder rules to simulate a bit more simultaneous combat, I'm sure plenty of people would be eager to give it a try. Just make sure you explain your houserules to your players ahead of time, as a courtesy.
How does Imediate action work? Does the action have to be labeled as an Imediate action? An example: featherfall. Sinereo: My player has the deflect arrow feat. He also is wielding a greatsword (a two handed weapon). He was attacked with a ranged weapon.He tryed to use an imediate action to remove his hand from his weapon. My response, he could not do that; imediate action does not work that way. His response, I am changing the rules.
Another example.
Say a Party member 1 climbs a rope. Party member 2 on his turn cuts the rope. Obviously if their actions went off simultaneously Party member 1 would be pretty mad at Party member 2.
Realistically, it all happens simultaneously. Initiative determines who acts first, and/or faster, and is a key game mechanic. And many people confuse "turns" as not being simultaneous. Realistically, it all is. Mechanically, it is not. However, the term "Universal" would best describe it, since it is not exactly simultaneous, yet it functions on the same frequency of time. But we are getting into scientific semantics.
If both hands are occupied while the ranged attack is made, the character cannot use the Deflect Arrows feat because both hands are holding something. If one hand was free and holding nothing, he can deflect it.
A question that I should ask, is would a Buckler count as an object in hand (yet can carry another weapon in its place, albeit at a penalty)?
In regards to the Immediate Action thing, he is right, and at the same time he is wrong.
He is right in that an Immediate Action can be taken outside your turn. There are some caveats, in that it functions like a Swift Action, which can only be done once per turn (that is, he can take only One Immediate Action or One Swift Action), etc.
He is wrong in that there is no action type defined for applying or removing a hand from an object/weapon, which is the action he is attempting. I already made a thread regarding that, but no official answer or ruling has been made. Anything that is not discussed in any book or source used in a given session (or group of players) falls under GM FIAT, i.e. Rule 0 of the Pathfinder game, in that it is the GM's call.
Personally? I would have to say for the character to be able to apply or remove a hand from an object/weapon as an Immediate Action, he would have to take a feat that allows him to do so. You're right in saying he can't do it as an Immediate Action because nothing in the rules says he can do that, and nothing not mentioned in the rules falls to GM FIAT, i.e. your ruling, which becomes law for the game mechanics of the session.
If you start falling, I'm giving you caveat to let go of your axe with one or both hands.
But that's GM call.
He is wrong in that there is no action type defined for applying or removing a hand from an object/weapon, which is the action he is attempting.
While that specific action is not defined in the book, the closest action to that is dropping a held item, which is a free action.
Which is also what James Jacobs said it is.
if you're wielding a 2H weapon, you can let go of the weapon with one of your hands (free action). You're now only carrying the 2H weapon, not wielding it, but your free hand is now free to attack or help cast spells or whatever. And at the end of your turn if your free hand remains free you'd be able to return it to grip your 2H weapon so you can still threaten foes and take attacks of opportunity if you want.
While JJ's statement holds some weight, also remember that he runs games that have varied/expanded rules that may differ from what the Devs would rule it as. Also keep in mind that the rules are not written down in a hardcover, meaning it all boils down to GM FIAT, something that JJ would have ruled based on such a case.
That is to say, that he isn't wrong, but it isn't exactly right when there is RAW that leads to multiple interpretations, as per the thread I made based on such.
Taking your hand off or putting it on a weapon isn't a listed actions. Its a DM's call how it works.
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Imagine holding a greataxe in two hands and standing on a pit trap.
On the villains own turn he pulls the lever and the trap-door opens, you fall.
It's not your turn, so you can't take free actions.
Does anyone really think that it's impossible to hit the bottom of the pit without both hands still glued to the axe? By RAW, falling doesn't cause you to drop held items, but can you? When I visualise this, I cannot see being forbidden to let go of the axe!
What if, instead of an axe, you were holding a heavy box? Would you have no choice but to grip the box all the way down? Or would you use your hands to protect yourself when you hit the floor?
While it's said no where, I think that just plain dropping an item completely is not an action at all. Switching grip can indeed still be a free action and only on your turn, while that takes almost no time, it requires some basic amount of coordination to do, unlike just plain dropping the item. I base this on the existence of:
"Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)."
Most likely, you're getting stunned out of your turn, so clearly dropping items cannot be a free action, or is a free action that can be taken out of turn.
While it's said no where, I think that just plain dropping an item completely is not an action at all.
Drop an Item: "Dropping an item in your space or into an adjacent square is a free action."
I base this on the existence of:
"Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)."
Most likely, you're getting stunned out of your turn, so clearly dropping items cannot be a free action, or is a free action that can be taken out of turn.
Stunned is a specific exception, it overrides the general rule.
-edit- just like Dropping Prone is a free action, but it happens outside your turn if you're tripped or overrun (by 5+).
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Grick is correct (of course!) that dropping an item is a free action on the Actions In Combat tables, thus you can only let go of an object on your own turn!
Unless you acquire a condition or suffer an effect which makes you drop items, like being stunned!
Falling doesn't make or allow you to drop items outside your own turn, RAW.
This is the problem! The RAW requires you to grip that axe or that box the whole way down, and that does not simulate reality!
I've been in a situation where I remember sliding down the cable and I remember hitting the ground, but it happened so fast that I don't remember bringing my hands up to protect my head. But I did! And I got a broken finger to show for it.
Could have been my face! I need my face!
This is such an ingrained survival instinct that it took no conscious thought, but RAW I'd still have that box in a death-grip!
Can anyone help make the rules match the reality?
Guess I was wrong. In that case, I think dropping an item should be not an action, and that would help make the rules match reality, Malachi.
@ Malachi
The rules are abstract of reality for a reason; while we can realistically say this or that would happen, how a subject happens between each version/level of fantasy varies, and for all we know, the physics of each realm would require such. It's the same reason why the rules for making Cartoon series are abstract; because it detracts from the creativity and fantasy aspect of it. That is to say that I do not like realism, but that generally "realism" varies from each fantasy, including this.
Honestly, I think it would make more sense for somebody with a Greataxe in hand to make a stab at a wall/ledge as they are falling so they can stop their fall and climb down at a comfortable level, which is again something the rules don't cover.
In addition, in regards to the whole "Death-Box" thing: Mechanically, it wasn't your turn/initiative, meaning you weren't able to perform any action such as letting go of the box, or climbing on top of the box to break your fall (some). Realistically, as you stated, it all happened "so fast" (or in this case, faster than the PC with the "Death-Box") that he couldn't react by using the box to break his fall; it also simulates that if he were to have some sort of way to help him react quicker in respects to the situation *cough*Feather Fall*Cough*, he could have avoided the issue altogether.