| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Stuff.
What are YOU smoking? And you'd like a monkey familiar, too, right?
What swift actions does a trickster need during a round? What class features does he have that make burning a swift action cross him up? That's right, none. Exactly.
The sword's not bad: A +1 short sword with a thin, dull gray blade, this weapon provides a +4 bonus on its wielder's attack and damage rolls when he is making a sneak attack with it.
Fine for low levels. I still prefer bumping up to a real +5 weapon as soon as it's feasible. Can you guess why?
Ninja blows for the trickster. That ain't gonna change just because you like it. At 2nd level, a ninja gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy she can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in the ninja’s ki pool is equal to 1/2 her ninja level + her Charisma modifier.
1+ a charisma modifier of 36? For what? A bunch of ninja stuff you can't do because you only have 3 levels of it? A few minor tricks you do better with magic anyway? Buy magic items to compensate? Put the bong down, dude. My guide is for optimization, not weakening.
I figured you'd pop in here with some fanciful version of ultimate tricksterhood, and if you have a better way to play a trickster, by all means, write a guide. XD
An arcane trickster with a swift action can still quicken a spell (even with a metamagic rod) -- know what happens if he is in armor that requires arcane armor training? He can't.
And darn straight I would prefer a familiar -- one+ more actions a round is always better than less actions a round with an item that controls your spell casting.
Also I'm sorry I thought you were writing a guide for arcane tricksters -- of all stripes -- I mean yeah rogue's great if you don't want anything but sneak attack: But otherwise either more 'spells' per day (vivisectionist alchemist for a wizard) or swift action vanish 5+ times per day (ninja for a sorcerer) is always better than rogue.
Your enjoyment of the rogue doesn't make it a great choice.
I mean if you were to try and argue on the grounds of trapfinding you might have something -- but you didn't (and even then trapfinding isn't that great either), you went for evasion -- something easily replaceable with a single item, and what's more you gave up the ability to not be seen in the first place as a swift action for it (or the ability to use cure light wounds wands, or simply have some extracts of such for your use).
What's more the vivisectionist also gives you a better fortitude save, mutagen (+4 dexterity and +2 natural armor) as well as a discovery.
As to why you want an actual +5 magic weapon? I guess you like wasting money. It's not like you are going to hit anything with it, and if you need a weapon because of something like an anti-magic field... well magic isn't going to help. As to the +5 part of it... well that's what greater magic weapon is for, which would put the sword of subtlety from a +1 (thanks for reminding me, I always get that one wrong) to +5 with a +4 more to hit and damage... which strikes me as much more likely to land.
Now if my advice is unwelcome fine, but I took you at your word when you said:
Comments and constructive criticism welcome!
I just came to comment that I wouldn't suggest wasting money on weapons.
Even if you get a +5 weapon, and max out your dex with Weapon Finesse, you still have 1/2 BAB.
You'd probably be better off using your rays. Also, consider a lesser rod of empower spell to go with it.
same bonuses as an attack with a weapon (Which IMO is a waste), but you deny your opponent Armor/Shield/Nat Armor to AC. Combined with your stealth tactics, you want to focus on asking your DM "What's its flatfooted touch AC?". I carried a few lesser rods of elemental Spell and called it a day.
Personally, I prefer Sorcerer/Rogue. Yes, you won't be the skill monkey, but with the Elemental: Primal bloodline, not only are you getting a ray that hits for 1d6+2 +Sneak (better than the acid splash cantrip), you also get resistance to your element of choice.
It also has some advantages, like being able to meta spells at the fly later on (Quickened True Strike for big bad, Piercing Spell is awesome for sorcerers, as you never know what's gonna have SR).
Also, While scorching ray is a great spell for taking out single enemies, Dragon's Breath is a great spell for taking out mobs.
So that's my opinions on AT.
Also, depending on the 3PP material available, I'd use
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/rite-publishing/talent-feats- --3rd-party---rite-publishing/air-born-sorcery-talent
Comments and constructive criticism are welcome. Asking me what I'm smoking implies insult. Lazar X has that same problem, and I don't feel like it right now.
@ Zolthux: The guide says that sorcerers make good tricksters. They make better blasters. It says that, too. The wizard gets more synergy, and makes a better skill-monkey. The flexibility and getting higher level spells sooner makes for a different concept. I didn't want to make it too long, and there are a lot of combos that can work. An admixture wizard gets a lot of goodies that make him effective.
All area effect attacks are fair game, once you have the capstone. Until then, you have to aim.
For 3pp, there's this. Nice feats for the trickster. I have a sorcerer trickster in one PbP who took Street Mage. Cheap and useful.
Comments and constructive criticism are welcome. Asking me what I'm smoking implies insult. Lazar X has that same problem, and I don't feel like it right now.
That is fair enough I guess -- apologies for the insulting tone then.
Well, given that the sorcerer option was not covered, but merely mentioned, I felt I needed to add that.
I read your guide. The summary was "Go Elf Wizard/Rogue, everything else is sub-optimal".
I understand this is an optimization guide, but sometimes what is needed is a character that can dish out damage where the sorc shines.
I still disagree with wearing armor and using Arcane Armor Training. As someone else mentioned, a Haramaki, or Silken Ceremonial Robes give you a +1 to Armor (Enhanceable to a total of +6). Not to mention, that if you are gonna be maxing out dex, it's better to not bother with armor.
Realistically, Focusing on not being in melee combat in the first place is probably a better idea overall. I've played Rogue/Sorc AT in PF, and I tried maxing out my AC, then realized that it's easier to focus on not putting myself in a position where I can be hit. My AC wasn't higher than 23 by level 15, but I had maxed stealth, high dex, size bonus to stealth (Gnome), shadow Armor, etc. then cast Invisibility. Standing Still I could make my stealth check be in the 80s.
I still think you have a good guide, but it's incomplete. Because this is a guide on a prestige class, you should consider the different roles the Trickster covers (Rogue with Spells, Caster with Sneak attack, Jack of all trades, etc) just like other guides do, but also look into the different multiclassing options.
Vivisectionist gets a few preparable buffs and mutagens, + a discovery, Rogues get Evasion and a talent, Ninjas get Ki points and quickened Vanish. Wizards get versatility for spell prep, sorcs get more Damage potential, bards get the ability to heal themselves should they need to be needed to fight, even Magus (who gets Mage Hand, and therefore qualifies) have a better BAB, access to Scorching Ray, and a few extra tricks. Sure, some combinations will be better than others, but they should not be discarded entirely.
So if anything, you should remember that as a PrC, AT has many ways to reach the prereqs, and they should also be touched upon.
No problem. It's still a work in progress, and I put it here because I know I missed a lot of possibilities other people would point out. It was a lot of work to get that much done, and if the ninja is a better choice than I think, I'll change it and expand.
There are so many possible tricksters, you do what works best for your party in your game. I like the spellcasting rogue/scout. That's the best role for the trickster in a balanced party. He blasts when other rogues melee, but he's not so bad at that, either. He'll flank now and then in lesser encounters, particularly at the low and mid levels, when spells are scarce, and his BAB still isn't that far behind the rogue's. Armor and a good weapon works fine for that, until you can afford a Quicken rod, apparently.
I tend to agree with others on the opinion that I'd go with Vivisectionist over Rogue. You lose incredibly little in the trade. Evasion is easy to make up for in a high reflex and a simple buff. You can gain a vestigal arm to hold a back up weapon, a rod, or a wand and a rod while still casting spells. Skill wise you lose nothing since alchemists have nearly all the important ones and given the tone of your guide the loss of social skills is hardly a loss at all. Add that you can now use cure light wounds wand and you can double as a medic.
Yeah I'd say its an overall win.
There is also a ring of evasion that you can pick up if you have some extra coin. Evasion isn't that special as to lose out on other things that you can't buy.
Assuming your AT is playing in Golarion, there is a strong trick you have missed.
That's been posted here, but it's a good point. I didn't include any Golarion-specific stuff, but that's worth a mention.
Hey, I may be missing something here, but alchemists don't get cantrips since they don't cast spells normally. How exactly are you qualifying for trickster then? It specifically requires that you be able to cast mage hand.I tend to agree with others on the opinion that I'd go with Vivisectionist over Rogue. You lose incredibly little in the trade. Evasion is easy to make up for in a high reflex and a simple buff. You can gain a vestigal arm to hold a back up weapon, a rod, or a wand and a rod while still casting spells. Skill wise you lose nothing since alchemists have nearly all the important ones and given the tone of your guide the loss of social skills is hardly a loss at all. Add that you can now use cure light wounds wand and you can double as a medic.
Yeah I'd say its an overall win.
...
That is what the three levels of wizard are for...
I think I must have missed a FAQ or something. You get sneak attack damage on spells that require attack rolls? Can somebody link that or even just explain? It seems that in PF if it doesn't specifically say you can than you probably can't.
Many guides I have seen have limited themselves to core rules only. The reason being that once you start adding all the other option books the guides explode in size to the point where it is unmanageable. That right there would be reason enough for leaving out things like the Vivisectionist, which is not just a non-core base class, it is an archetype of a non-core base class.
Certainly it is viable alternative, but as long as you have all the basics covered with core only, then you can start replacing things from other sources. You don't necessarily need the guide to tell you exactly what those replacements might be.
I think I must have missed a FAQ or something. You get sneak attack damage on spells that require attack rolls? Can somebody link that or even just explain? It seems that in PF if it doesn't specifically say you can than you probably can't.
You add sneak attack to any attack that you can make against a flat-footed or flanked target. A spell that requires an attack roll is and attack and therefore qualifies.
I wouldn't want to enter AT as a Viv. Alchemist single classed anyway. AT gives you 1) SA advancement; 2) CL advancement; 3) some crappy other stuff and then an awesome capstone.
Viv. Alchemist is already doing 1 and 2, and lacks any extracts to make use of 3, due to how extracts work. He'd be giving up his discovery advancement and other class features such as mutagen(beastmorph?). You go AT for the full caster advancement on a GOOD casting class with a GOOD spell list, and use it to supplement the casting w/ full SA progression. So you want a powerful, 9-level casting class to link it to, otherwise it's a total waste.
This is why entering as Sandman Bard single classed or whatever is also a poor move.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've made extensive revisions to account for a lot of what was pointed out to me here. I'm not going to worry about formatting it to scroll like a single page.
It's a guide to help you optimize your trickster. If you're not using a roguish class with a full-casting arcane class, you're doing something else.
I hope you enjoy it and find at least some of it useful.
I wouldn't want to enter AT as a Viv. Alchemist single classed anyway. "Stuff"Very good point. Extracts pale against 9th level spells, especially for stuff to get sneak attack damage with.
I was not suggesting further extending your extracts with AT levels. However I would think 3 levels of alchemist have far more to offer than three levels of rogue.
However I would think 3 levels of alchemist have far more to offer than three levels of rogue.
They get a better fort save, but no abilities that help them be much like a rogue, which is the role the AT plays best from levels 1-20. The abilities a vivisectionist gets don't mean much later on. Roguish classes get things that will serve them their whole career.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
However I would think 3 levels of alchemist have far more to offer than three levels of rogue.They get a better fort save, but no abilities that help them be much like a rogue, which is the role the AT plays best from levels 1-20. The abilities a vivisectionist gets don't mean much later on. Roguish classes get things that will serve them their whole career.
It's easy to be a rogue. Exceedingly easy. That's why the best rogue classes are in fact not rogues.
Automatically silenced buffs and utilities aren't useful for a rogue?
I was not suggesting further extending your extracts with AT levels. However I would think 3 levels of alchemist have far more to offer than three levels of rogue.I wouldn't want to enter AT as a Viv. Alchemist single classed anyway. "Stuff"Very good point. Extracts pale against 9th level spells, especially for stuff to get sneak attack damage with.
I agree. That's why I was the first one in this thread to suggest using Viv. Alchemist instead of Rogue (for an Alch 3 / Wiz 3 / AT 10 type build). My post was in response to those wishing to enter with JUST Viv. alchemist. Ie, Alchemist 10 / AT 10. I was just pointing out what a colossally bad idea that would be even if it were RAW legal.
Automatically silenced buffs and utilities aren't useful for a rogue?
At low levels, certainly. Of course a rogue starts out being pretty darn silent in the first place, and has twice the skill ranks in everything he needs to be so.
At higher levels, alchemy will be meaningless to the trickster. Things like evasion and surprise attack will still be useful at level 20, when the trickster is pretty much automatically silent all the time.
The Alchemist is more useful because discoveries, like basically everything in the game, are better than rogue talents.
You can get one, and have the option to spend feats on more. Things like extra arms, % chance of crit immunity, a (2nd?) familiar, and so forth. And you can be a Mindchemist to get a free +4 int and +2 nat armor buff for half an hour per use and doubled int modifier on Knowledge checks.
Seems better than what rogue has to offer, to me.
The Alchemist is more useful because discoveries, like basically everything in the game, are better than rogue talents.
You can get one, and have the option to spend feats on more. Things like extra arms, % chance of crit immunity, a (2nd?) familiar, and so forth. And you can be a Mindchemist to get a free +4 int and +2 nat armor buff for half an hour per use and doubled int modifier on Knowledge checks.
Seems better than what rogue has to offer, to me.
I disagree. The higher level the trickster gets, the less and less relevant 3 levels of alchemist becomes. Evasion or a ki pool, combined with surprise attack, will pay for themselves many times over. He won't give a hang about a few discoveries.
That's great? Abilities at level 20 are irrelevant to most players. Abilities at low levels to the high end of middle levels are what matter.
Vivisectionist/Wizard Arcane Trickster takes an early 12 skill point hit. big deal. your intellect is already giving you plenty anyway.
if you need to hit when you flank or need a defensive bonus, Dex mutagens and extracts/spells of reduce person can (if combined) give you +4 to hit and +6 to AC.
if you need an AC bonus, a haramaki is cheaper than bracers of armor. and has all the same advantages, except that it can also take flat cost abilities too.
if you need trapfinding. there is a spell on both lists called Aram Zey's focus. it lasts a minute per level and gives you a rogue's trapfinding ability and is worth doubling up on if you are really worried about traps. and you only need 2 skills maxed to be effective with traps.
they also get an excuse to wear a sweet outfit in the form of a labcoat with a pair of glasses. and they can get one of the most trusted cover jobs, or apothecary.
they get the same SA progression and Same BaB.
because you have 2 different spellcasting classes, you don't really need use magic device, and you can use wands of CLW without investing skill points. this essentially saves you a skill point per level. which could eventually catch up to the initial 12 skill point hit.
you could play a human and for the price of not getting a dexterity bonus or free spell penetration, you have no constitution penalty, the same intellect bonus, an extra feat and an extra skill point per level. effectively double dipping favored class boni compared to an elf.
evasion? you can easily get that on a ring.
discoveries are also better than rogue talents (and can be bought with feats)
You're overplaying the usefulness of Evasion. Do enemies target your AC or your reflex more often? If it's the former, the mutagen's bonus to AC (and Dex, whoa, that's +4 to AC, amazing! and you can keep on making it? Nice) will be far, far more useful to you. Not to mention those silent-at-level-1 Vanish extracts you have. Or the Feral Mutagen that you have, giving you three sneak-attacking natural attacks at your highest BAB, probably using Dex too thanks to an AoMF (Agile).
I mean hey, you recommend having a weapon to get some flanking sneak attack in. If one attack is good, three at full BAB is amazing.
You're too married to the idea of it only being a rogue. Until you give that up, this guide is not much of one.
I disagree. The higher level the trickster gets, the less and less relevant 3 levels of alchemist becomes. Evasion or a ki pool, combined with surprise attack, will pay for themselves many times over. He won't give a hang about a few discoveries.The Alchemist is more useful because discoveries, like basically everything in the game, are better than rogue talents.
You can get one, and have the option to spend feats on more. Things like extra arms, % chance of crit immunity, a (2nd?) familiar, and so forth. And you can be a Mindchemist to get a free +4 int and +2 nat armor buff for half an hour per use and doubled int modifier on Knowledge checks.
Seems better than what rogue has to offer, to me.
My third arm, double duration potions, natural attacks, rerolled mental saving throws, and poison use disagree with you sir.
And you know what one more level of alchemist will get me? Alchemical Allocation. You know what alchemical allocation can get me? +10 Stealth, Acrobatics, or Perception for one hour for a number of times per day I can use alchemical allocation.
I disagree. The higher level the trickster gets, the less and less relevant 3 levels of alchemist becomes. Evasion or a ki pool, combined with surprise attack, will pay for themselves many times over. He won't give a hang about a few discoveries.The Alchemist is more useful because discoveries, like basically everything in the game, are better than rogue talents.
You can get one, and have the option to spend feats on more. Things like extra arms, % chance of crit immunity, a (2nd?) familiar, and so forth. And you can be a Mindchemist to get a free +4 int and +2 nat armor buff for half an hour per use and doubled int modifier on Knowledge checks.
Seems better than what rogue has to offer, to me.
yay, quickened vanish a handful of times per day for 3 rounds a piece. you shouldn't be relying excessively on this because AT doesn't advance Ki pool.
Evasion? not as good as you think, you can get it on a ring if you really wanted, but the damage from evocation spells is so lackluster, and the real damage comes from monsters. a Wand of CLW is a better solution.
suprise attack? guaranteed sneak attack for 1 round if you successfully ambush isn't going to do anything. first of all, scouting ahead to ambush leaves you dead, and it's pretty damn hard to sneak when you have Clanky McTincan following you.
and at higher levels, most of the monsters you face are going to have stuff like blindsight, true seeing, scent, or tremor sense, which all negate the benefit of your precious invisibility.
|
I think I must have missed a FAQ or something. You get sneak attack damage on spells that require attack rolls? Can somebody link that or even just explain? It seems that in PF if it doesn't specifically say you can than you probably can't.You add sneak attack to any attack that you can make against a flat-footed or flanked target. A spell that requires an attack roll is and attack and therefore qualifies.
What about the Evokers force missile or Magic Missile? They are an attack even though an attack roll isn't required. Could Sneak Attack be added to these? I haven't found anything in the CRB that would support or refute this?
Perhaps you should read the guide, and if you disagree, make your trickster however you like. You're free to do both.
I think I must have missed a FAQ or something. You get sneak attack damage on spells that require attack rolls? Can somebody link that or even just explain? It seems that in PF if it doesn't specifically say you can than you probably can't.You add sneak attack to any attack that you can make against a flat-footed or flanked target. A spell that requires an attack roll is and attack and therefore qualifies.What about the Evokers force missile or Magic Missile? They are an attack even though an attack roll isn't required. Could Sneak Attack be added to these? I haven't found anything in the CRB that would support or refute this?
they don't require an attack roll so they don't count for sneak attack. the general rule is no attack roll = no sneak attack.
I think I must have missed a FAQ or something. You get sneak attack damage on spells that require attack rolls? Can somebody link that or even just explain? It seems that in PF if it doesn't specifically say you can than you probably can't.You add sneak attack to any attack that you can make against a flat-footed or flanked target. A spell that requires an attack roll is and attack and therefore qualifies.What about the Evokers force missile or Magic Missile? They are an attack even though an attack roll isn't required. Could Sneak Attack be added to these? I haven't found anything in the CRB that would support or refute this?
You have to roll an attack roll for it to be a sneak attack, until you hit the capstone. Then all you need is a flat-footed target. For an evoker, give it up and take the admixture school. Much better.
not every campaign plays long enough to get the capstone. with weekly william. our PCs are lucky if they reach 15th level. and we rarely breach 10th, which usually takes forever.
the guy claiming to be a highly regarded expert is too married to one idea and overvalues evasion a little excessively.