I have to confess, I haven't made a lot of rogues. It isn't for a dislike of the class or anything except I suppose the difficulty of getting off sneak attacks. Mostly its just that I just haven't played them. In an upcoming game, though, my son had originally been interested in playing an Arcane Archer but has recently expressed some interest in playing a sniper type character. He described it as "a guy who hides in the shadows and shoots a bow for a lot of damage". I know he still has the concept of the Arcane Archer on his mind though so I'm not completely throwing that out the window.
Actually, what I'm wondering is if there is even a good way to mix the two. I haven't seen an Arcane Archer done well with rogue levels but now that I'm thinking of it the concept doesn't seem so bad. When you consider that when shooting an imbued arrow is a standard action anyway thus limiting you to a single arrow it does make sense to get as much out of that one shot as possible. Having it deliver a sneak attack, normal weapon damage and the spell does seem like an effective use of a standard action. That and having the sorcerer spell list at his disposal is nice for some very synergistic spells (invisibility, etc.)
Just for some background the builds he had been considering for the Arcane Archer had been Ranger(with a Roc animal companion)/Sorcerer (maybe shadow blooded?), Monk (Zen Archer)/Sorcerer (Empyrical blooded), and Fighter/Sorcerer.
The real question here though, is how to build the rogue base if we are considering this. I think what might be best would be going both Sniper and Scout archetypes. They stack with eachother and deadly range seems good for a sniper archer. Scout basically gives another way to get sneak attacks although skirmisher doesn't come until 8th level. Any opinion on other effective options?
He is going to be an elf with whichever build he chooses so the weapon proficiencies aren't going to matter. The talents that I was looking at were:
Snap Shot
Sniper's Eye
Combat Trick (for an Archery feat)
Fast Stealth
Follow Clues (for that Ranger feel)
Surprise Attack
Weapon Training (to shore up the medium BAB)
Ninja Trick (for Deadly Range to increase Sneak Attack range by 10ft.)
The racial trait Silent Hunter is definately going in as well.
Does anyone have any suggestions for the best way to make a ranged rogue?
Nah, the class isn't a must. In fact, one of my son's concerns is that Arcane Archer may be too complicated for him and I think that rogue might not be a step in an easier direction. If a sniper type could be made well with a different class I'm all ears.
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Rogues really don't make good archers in Pathfinder. The reliance on sneak attack damage and the difficulties of pulling that off at range means you're better off going with a ranger, fighter, zen archer monk, or paladin.
Bows in Pathfinder really get their damage output from multiple attacks per round with as large a damage bonus per shot as possible. This makes the Paladin's smite evil class feature one of he best boosts to an archer's damage ouput.
Archery is also very feat intensive (point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, many shot, deadly aim, improved precise shot, pinpoint targeting, clustered shots) which makes the fighter with and ranger good options for building an effective archer.
It's nigh-impossible to build a true sniper in Pathfinder as doing enough damage in one shot to take down a single foe at low levels with a bow is very chancy, and doing so at high levels (where opponents frequently have hit points in the triple digits) is highly unlikely.
You can full attack with a bow and have all the attacks be sneak attacks. In circumstances where you can only get a standard action single attack being an arcane archer with sneak attack dice doesn't seem like a bad option.
Humor me a bit. I know it is suboptimal. Lets see how optimal the suboptimal can become.
If you go with fighter, which has more feats you will more likely get more damage in than sneak attack even on the one shot.
As for getting all of the sneak attacks in on ranged attacks, that is very difficult if you don't win initiative meaning that almost never happens past round 1.
7th level rogue brings 4d6 for an average of 14 points of sneak attack damage
7th level fight is going to hit more so even if the fighter class is only bring +10 compared to the rogue's +14 his higher attack bonus will end up doing more damage on average.
PS:Feel free to replace fighter with paladin or ranger. I would use the guide archetype if I went ranger for this build though.
wraithstrike: Improved Invisibility should do the trick too although beating initiative is good too. Even if only one of his attacks in a round is sneak attack then that is damage he wouldn't have otherwise got.
Again, I do understand that going rogue for an archer is not the strongest decision. The goal of this thread is to find out the best way to make a sniper rogue type. I want to be able to present it as an option to my son in the best light possible. Personally, I don't think it is a good idea either. I just want to be as impartial as possible and give him a "best case scenario" type build. I want to do this if for no other reason than to show him how it pales in comparison to say the ranger route.
BBT: Actually I had a thought about a bombadier alchemist for 2 levels just so he could affix alchemical items to his arrows for another added affect. But adding more caster levels on top of a martial build seems like a poor idea.
Question for the board by the way:
If the character went Ranger and chose a Roc as his animal companion and also was a Sylvan blooded sorcerer (which also grants an animal companion) would he get 2 companions? Would you rule that they stack up to his character level so he just gets a better companion?
At what level will the game be starting?* If greater invis is going to be used to get the most damage then something like smiting is better. It can be used more often than greater invis, and will/should do more damage than sneak attack since you can't SA with greater invis once you run out of spells prepared or available.
*Starting off at a level when the player can just start with a build, and surviving long enough to get to a certain level are different things.
If you want the best build possible for the arcane archer I would not go rogue unless the concept heavily calls for it, and he is not accepting anything else.
Is he looking for anything other than damage? I can try to come up with something based on AA. I think I have a ranger build lying around I can use as a comparison.
I don't see anything that says they stack when trying to determine animal compansions so it seems you would get two companions.<--That might be incorrect though.
I would house rule it so they stacks since 2 very weak animals would not really help out.
wraithstrike: 1st level but it will be going quickly to 2nd as the first adventure is a sort of prelude from what I understand. High amounts of starting gold (like 2900, I believe) and a lot of permancied spells and such as we are leaving a magic rich area.
I would like to see what your ranger build is. However, while I understand it is not the best choice, I wonder what a rogue based arcane archer build would look like.
Regarding the companions: RAW, I don't think they stack. But we all agree we would house rule that they do. What if the player actually wanted 2 companions? Further, what if they took the bonded companion feat? Would it apply to one? Both? Split between them? RAW I believe it would only apply to one. I might house rule that any "left over" levels could spill over to the other. I'm not sure though...
I think what he is looking for are a lot of varied effects he can apply to his arrows. Even multiple effects at the same time. But adding sniping to it may be a bit difficult.
I would definitely not use the rogue then,not that it is a bad class, but you have to go with an arcane class at some point, and the martial class will be doing the heavy lifting. I see no reason to go rogue if you want to present the best case scenario.
As for my ranger build what point buy is allowed, and at what level do you want the comparison made? I may have to adjust it. I think it is level 7 currently. I should have a level 10 floating around also.
If the player wanted 2 animals I would strongly advise against it. They will die, and not really help him.
You have to take the boon companion feat for each animal companion.
Boon Companion
Your bond with your animal companion or familiar is unusually close.
Prerequisites: Animal companion or familiar class ability.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level*. If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different animal companion or familiar.
Sniping in D&D does not provide good damage. It that is why he wants he will have to push his stealth modifier to use it so he can hide again. Using Deadly Aim should him out though.
No houserules needed, they stack:
Animal Companions
The character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
I thought I had seen it before. I did not know it was in that location.
You have seen my post before I changed it. :)
wraithstrike is a time ninja. ;)
Yeah, I thought I remembered that rule too but didn't look there I guess. I think a level 9 or 10 comparison would be fairest. It gives the rogue a chance to get into the Prc.
I know what your saying about Rogue not necessarily being the class to build the concept out of. But being that he was specifically asking about a sniper type I think they are the best class for it. I know the tactic isn't powerful but I just wanted to build something to flesh it out.
I do, however, still think that in the event you only have a single attack action that the build I was talking about in the original post would work good. With being able to make a single attack + sneak attack + imbued arrow it is going to be a pretty effective single attack. And I think that is what my son wanted to see. I don't think I will have a problem convincing him that this isn't as good as a ranger build and that it is also more complicated for less payoff in the form he wants it.
I understand what you are saying with the single attack, but I still think the other classes do more damage on average even with a single attack, and a ranger can be just as sneaky.
Between deadly aim, and the guide archype you are getting +8 to damage, and your attack roll is still higher than the rogue's. The rogue averages +14 at level 7 due to Sneak attack, but once you factor in the lower BAB he really won't be getting +14.
Now that I think about it since he will be multiclassed with the arcane class he won't be getting +14. It will be +10.5 before his lower attack bonus comes into play.
The ranger is at +8, and he hits more often so he will be better at doing damage.
I have not done the math yet, but right now the rogue seems to lose out on single attacks, and full round attacks.
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By RAW there is no way to get flanking with ranged attacks. That takes out the number one way rogues get sneak attacks. Barring a house rule which allows ranged flanking (e.g. if you've got ranged threat as per the Snap Shot feat) you'd have to go with flat-footed / unaware of the attack options.
You've already cited Improved Invisibility, but darkness, smoke, blindness, and anything else which keeps the target from seeing the attack coming would also work... provided the archer had some way to see through them.
The Hide in Plain Sight ability can allow you to stealth in the middle of a combat... at which point you can then get another surprise attack. However, the only way to get that ability at relatively low level (6th) is via the Shadowdancer prestige class and they only get it when within 10' of dim light (other than their own shadow). However, there are ways to achieve that magically. Combined with a high stealth skill you can use the sniping action to get one sneak attack per round and stay hidden. The 'Stealthy Sniper' trick can help make those rolls easier. If you do get spotted you can Hide in Plain Sight and then repeat. Shadowdancer also gives you Darkvision 60' at 2nd level... put out the lights and you can go to town with full attacks. Obviously it also fits with his "hides in the shadows" concept.
Sniper Goggles let you make sneak attacks at any range and add +2 to each damage die within 30'. Useless to any other type of archer, but deadly for a rogue archer. Basically, within 30' you're getting an average of +5.5 to damage every two rogue levels... which is a damage per level bonus no other class can match. Ergo, the higher level the character gets the more significant that advantage would become.
Obviously they'd need Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. If going the one shot per round route then Pinpoint Targeting and Shot on the Run are good ideas. If there is another (melee) rogue in the group he would bless you for taking Improved Snap Shot and basically allowing him to flank any enemy within 15' of you. Since he's going to play an Elf the Stabbing Shot feat would be a good idea.
Could go Ninja instead of Rogue and pick up Vanish. That can help with the sneak attack at range.
Check out the Scout class on d20pfsrd.com by Tripod Machine. Their shtick is that whenever they take the Attack Action, they get + 1d6 damage per 2 levels. This will be great for a sniper type. A little strong on the lower end, but fairly elegant too.
CBDunkerson: Ah, great catch with that item. I think I have probably looked past it a dozen times not thinking of any time I would use it in a build. But it is perfect for this build.
I wouldn't say that shooting for a 1 shot/round build is a good idea in any circumstance, including this one. However, with that item it certainly makes it more tolerable.
I dont think he was planning on working in Shadowdancer into the build with everything else that is going on. I definately understand the advantages of it though and it is a lot easier than waiting until you get HIPS with Ranger. With wanting to go Arcane Archer I doubt he is considering progressing that far as Ranger either.
Arlandor: I was considering Ninja, actually, mostly just for the Deadly Range ninja trick. Vanish would also be good in a very limited sense.
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I wouldn't say that shooting for a 1 shot/round build is a good idea in any circumstance, including this one.
I'd agree except for a full out stealth build. If you can pump stealth high enough that enemies are seldom able to figure out where you are then it really doesn't matter how much damage you do per round... you can wear them down. Of course that might not be much comfort to the other party members who died half an hour earlier. :]
Of course, you could also just do full attack until you get in trouble and then switch to 'now you see me / now you don't' mode.
An alternative to HIPS would be to get a high Bluff skill and use that to create distractions so that you can use stealth again after enemies have located you. The Chameleon rogue archetype is particularly well suited to this (and good for a stealth rogue in general).
You could also give this a shot. One of the reasons for it was to make ranged rogues easier :)
I know I say this a lot, but you may also want to check out Zen Archer. At first level you essentially have Rapid Shot, Precise Shot (Monk Bonus), and if you're human, two extra feats for anything else you want (Toughness, Improved Init maybe?). At second level you pick up Weapon Focus and Point Blank Shot (Monk Bonus).
They get rogue-like skills as class skills (climb, acrobatics, stealth), and at 3rd level they don't worry about AoO for firing ranged. If they need to go HtH there's no actions wasted switching weapons (hold your bow while you kick the guy to death).
The only real downside is the hub-bub about how Flurry of Blows works, but the dev comment we have on it is "We'll look into it", so as of now it works as written. My personal feelings is that for Zen Archer they'll just change Two-Weapon fighting line to the Rapid-Shot line, but if the GM allows it as written, all of that is moot anyway.
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To make a good "Sniper" rogue (despite how many people will tell you its impossible/unfeasible), all it takes is:
Elf (for Longbow proficiency, mostly, although Low-Light vision, keen senses, & +2 Dex doesn't hurt)
Scout Archetype.
Archery Feats.
That's it, really. The Skirmisher trick doesn't kick in until 8th level, but it's not really super necessary until about then, anyways.
Point Blank, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus, Quickdraw will take you to 7th level. Make sure the PC has a decent (12-14) Str, high Dex, and Con as his 3rd stat.
Pump up his stealth, perception, acrobatics, and climb.
Tactics should be something like "stealth ahead of party, find sniper blind and observe enemy. Once ready to engage, loose Sneak-Attack arrow on 1st target of opportunity, then fade back towards party/pre-arranged ambush location."
Once you get higher level, Dodge-Mobility-Shot on the Run becomes a very decent option for this character, especially if he can get his hands on some flight magic or significant speed-increasing magic (like, say, scrolls of fly and a party member who casts haste on the regular).
Finally, even when he's not sneak-attacking, this character can pump out decent (not game-winning-by-himself, but still decent) damage via arrows as support for the rest of the party. Sneak Attack becomes icing on the delicious cake, rather than the be-all, end-all of the PC.
BBT: Yeah, Hellcat Stealth is definately the way to go with any of these builds. Although striking from stealth for lots of damage with the one shot/one kill mentality is still kinda the realm of the rogue. Do you think that the Ranger would be getter more damage from that?
Judokai: Zen Archer was something he was considering but that was for the non one shot/one kill idea. I do, however, see some value in still picking up a couple levels of Zen Archer but with trying to drive up his Sneak Attack, that will lose him another 1d6 of damage and hurt his already middling BAB. I think Zen Archer is best left in its own build. Besides, as a lead in to Arcane Archer I don't see getting more than 3d6 extra damage from Sneak Attack.
Cheapy: Thank you for the link. I trolled that thread before. I don't think my DM will be interested in using any house rules though I do personally think that is decent.
I think psionichamster has in mind what I'm looking for here most. Those were all the ideas I was going for here. Working in Hellcat Stealth seems like another good option.
Any suggestions on bringing up Stealth as high as possible to offset that -10 penalty? The armor enhancement is definately an option. Elf boots too. Dexterity boosting items. Um... luckstone? Thats about all I got.
instead of rogue take a ninja. "Vanish"-Trick as swift action and your attacks this rounds are sneak :)
I think you mean only your first attack, right?
How does this look for a rogue based entry into Arcane Archer? I'm thinking of just leaving the sorcerer level last because I like how the feats are staggered with rogue talents and am not sure where I would fit it in otherwise.
Str: 13
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 12
Elf:
Alternate racial trait - Silent Hunter: Elves are renowned for their subtlety and skill. Elves with this racial trait reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5 and can make Stealth checks while running at a –20 penalty (this number includes the penalty reduction from this racial trait). This racial trait replaces the elven magic racial trait.
Rogue with both the Sniper and Scout archetypes.
Sorcerer - bloodline undecided, likely shadow
1 - Rogue 1: Sneak Attack 1d6, accuracy, Skill Focus: Stealth (1st)
2 - Rogue 2: Rogue Trick: Sniper's Eye
3 - Sorcerer 1: Hellcat Stealth (3rd)
4 - Rogue 3: Sneak Attack 2d6, Deadly Range
5 - Rogue 4: Scout's Charge, Rogue Talent: Weapon Training (Longbow), Deadly Aim (5th)
6 - Rogue 5: Sneak Attack 3d6
7 - Rogue 6: Rogue Trick: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (7th)
8 - Rogue 7: Sneak Attack 4d6
9 - Rogue 8: Rogue Trick: Snap Shot, Rapid Shot (9th)
Arcane Archer here on out picking up more archery feats like Manyshot, etc.
Personally, I'm not really liking it. I think the BAB is going to be too low to connect with more than a single arrow a turn. However, once getting to 2nd level Arcane Archer and getting Imbue Arrow that becomes a pretty potent single arrow. By that time with Hellcat Stealth and a high Sneak check due to items and ranks it should a garaunteed 4d6 sneak attack (+2 to each damage die within 30' with Sniper's Goggles) + damage from Deadly Aim + the imbued arrow + a second arrow from Manyshot + likely at least one elemental property from the bow itself. The level after that the bow will get a second elemental property from Arcane Archer's next class ability.
I dunno... I still think it would be better to go Monk, Fighter or Ranger. Monk even has Stealth. Anyway, this is the best Rogue entry I can come up with.
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Some thing our ranged rogue is doing is taking a lvl of deviner wizard, and standing next to our actual diviner wizard. He convinced him to take the lookout teamwork feat which gives him a full attack action during surprise rounds. Combined with the rogue talent that makes enemys take sneak attack during the surprise round even if they have already acted and it's a fun little trick.
I had a thought. Maybe I'm going about this all wrong. Maybe it is better to mix the base classes. Check this out:
1 - Zen Archer 1: Flurry of Blows, Point Blank Shot (bonus), Deadly Aim (1st), Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike, Perfect Strike
2 - Zen Archer 2: Precise Shot (bonus), Weapon Focus: Longbow (bonus), Evasion
3 - Zen Archer 3: Zen Archery, Point Blank Master (bonus), Dodge (3rd)
4 - Ranger 1: Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy
5 - Ranger 2: Rapid Shot (bonus), Mobility (5th)
6 - Fighter 1: Shot on the Run (bonus)
7 - Fighter 2: Manyshot (bonus), Clustered Shots (7th)
8 - Sorcerer 1:
9 - Arcane Archer from here on out.
Stealth is still a class skill for Monk and Ranger so he could still be a hidey type if he wanted. He wouldn't get bonus damage from Sneak Attack but his damage would still be on par and he could still attack foes while they are flat footed. In fact, there is plenty of room there for Hellcat Stealth if he still wanted to go that route. With this build he gets 11 feats by level 7. That is pretty damned good. I'm not sure if I could beat that in sheer volume for this build. It basically covers every important archery feat prior to improved precise shot.
Personally, I'm a big fan of fitting Monk into the build for several reasons. It is a lightly armored build so going no armor is a definate option with monk especially as wisdom is going to be a key stat. It also allows for flurry + rapid shot which is just swell. I could actually drop the two levels of Ranger but it opens up their spell list for wands/scrolls, gives a bonus feat, some good skills and more versatility. It also fits his woodsy elf feel that he is going for.
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Human Rogue:
Feat - Point Blank Shot (+1 hit, +1 damage w/in 30')
Sneak Attack +1d6
Additional Feat - Rapid Shot (one extra attack with bow per turn)
So at first level, with sneak attack, you can release 2 arrows for 4d6 +2 total damage.
Ideally you will take Deadly aim next, when available at 3rd level. That will allow you to swap your Dex bonus into damage... thus doing even more additional damage.
When you hit 8th level you will pick up manyshot if dexterity permits. As well as an additional attack.
At 9th level, you are doing 3 attacks per turn, with 2 arrows each, for 6 arrows. 6d6 + 6 + (dex bonus damage x 6) + 30d6 sneak attack.
Well, there you have it... pincushioned mobs. Just by flanking or being invisible (say a ring or something) you just delivered 60 (presuming the 17 dex for multishot) to 240 damage.
And if you have a Efficient Quiver, you still have 54 more projectiles left... (and keep in mind that you might add some magical damage x6 (for six arrows) if your bow is magical)
At 19th level you are doing the old 10d6 sneak attacks... with 4 attacks, 8 arrows total... that is 80d6 in bonus damage alone.
And yet, you're still facing the perennial problem of ranged rogues in that there's no easy way to deal ranged sneak attack damage consistently until high levels. You cannot flank at range. Ring of invisibility is going to need a standard action to activate the invis, and will end after the first attack roll.
And rogues probably shouldn't be using deadly aim unless they find a way to boost their to-hit.
Arcane Trickster might do the trick for you ? If you are already looking for a gish. AA is not best Archer, even less Sniper in the game, which is sad, but true. With Arcane Trickster, he can Snipe with Spells, as well as weapons. He won't lose caster levels so he will have that all important Imp. Invis sooner, etc.
In my honest opinion, if you want to go Rogue, and want a Archer/Sniper type of character, that is gish as well, go Arcane Trickster. He won't have Imbue Arrow, buhu, but he will have so much more freedom. If he wants Imbue Arrow he can always dip into AA for 2 levels then continue with Arcane Trickster.
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Well presumably, the issue is that I calculated for a Full Round action and not a Standard action.
As a standard action, you could fire TWO arrows, for a total of 12d6 + modifiers...
The next round, if someone helps you flank, you can unleash the 88d6 nighmare.
Regarding "having to be higher level" - I say a first level character who can flank for 4d6 + 4 (28 points) dishing out some serious damage. In fact, just recently we ran Graypelt (Hollows Last Hope Module) in one round with two rogue's flanking at range and another shooting a large crossbow in his face. The damage each player did was 19, 14, and 10 respectively... 43 points, failed his fort save and went down. Poor doggy rolled a 3 for intiative and never even got a swing in on us.
personally, I might go ShadowDancer (one level at least) for the Hide in Plain sight ability...
You cannot flank at range. The flanking rules are explicit in this and there are no core feats that allow you to bypass the limitation that flanking attacks are melee only.
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Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
OK. So its not a "flanking" attack.
In theory, and this may also not hold true, all a rogue has to do to dish out the damage is: Do a regular attack in the suprise round, for the base sneak attack damage. Then act before the combatant who is flat footed until they act (ie. beat them in initiative). As Flat Footed states that until they act in a combat they are still Flat Footed (their first round starts on THEIR first initiative, not the rogue's). Thus improved intitiaive would help the rogue.
An alternate tactic would be to do some sort of entagle which removes their dex bonus for a round (until they escape it) and then load em full of arrows at your whim. No Dex bonus = pincushion.
Yep!
The life of the ranged rogue is a tough one. (Hence my solution above that I linked to about 20 posts up.) Snapshot (the rogue talent) helps a lot, as it means you count as 20 initiative for the first attack, all but ensuring you go first. Surprise Attack is fairly useful too. But after the first round? It's tough to get ranged sneak attack. You can use 3 feats to try to get it (the shatter defenses line of feats), but add those to all your other feats necessary, and it's prohibitively late before they can reliably do ranged sneak attack damage.
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Well, while it doesn't say specifically under invisibility that opponents lose their Dex bonus fighting foes they cannot see, it does say SPECIFICALLY that under Blindsense (page 382). Thus I would think any rogue whom was invisible or otherwise not seen (Hide in Plain sight) can do a ranged sneak attack within 30 feet. 88d6 back on the board...
Arcane trickster at level 9 or Shadowdancer at level 1... hmmm...
And then it's back off the board because once you hit them, they don't lose their dex bonus as you lose stealth instantly. And you still need to make a movement to be able to use stealth, so you can't just stay still and re-hide. Unless you're Sniping, which requires a move action, which would screw up the full-attack.
So nope, still can't ranged full attack easily with sneak attack.
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Well, here is the thought - you use greater invisibility ring to not go out of hide/unseen. Or you beat them in initiative... either way is 88d6 for a full round attack, plus the 12d6 for the surprise round... 2 rounds and 100d6 total damage.
(alternately you somehow manage to blind the target on the surprise round for the same pincushiony effects later)