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Kind of surprising that some of you can't think of uses for specialized ammo...
I'll echo what a few others have said: It's for special occasions/It's for planning encounters where you don't have access to a "Magic-Mart" (hehe)/ and it's for rounding out treasure.
Player has a +3 bow of Dragon Slaying? The local Enchanter tells him "You'll need these +3 arrows of Giant's Bane to get to the top of the mountain where the dragon lives. Give 'em hell, lad."
In a broader sense, a better answer to the question is "Because it's not a video game." Things are useful because they are. Things exist because someone made them. NPC Enchanters don't know what "+" means. Think about it.
Beware +1 returning arrows. ;-)Heh... but actually returning arrows aren't that bad of an idea. They return to the square shot from and fall into your hand. That's just about perfect actually...
You're technically correct, though I believe they stop being magical after they are fired.
though really I just see it as an amusing way to shoot yourself.
Kind of surprising that some of you can't think of uses for specialized ammo...
I'll echo what a few others have said: It's for special occasions/It's for planning encounters where you don't have access to a "Magic-Mart" (hehe)/ and it's for rounding out treasure.
Player has a +3 bow of Dragon Slaying? The local Enchanter tells him "You'll need these +3 arrows of Giant's Bane to get to the top of the mountain where the dragon lives. Give 'em hell, lad."
In a broader sense, a better answer to the question is "Because it's not a video game." Things are useful because they are. Things exist because someone made them. NPC Enchanters don't know what "+" means. Think about it.
Kind of surprising that you don't see the uses some of us have come up with. The discussion isn't whether you can use ammo for situational reasons, the discussion is if it's worth the cost.
In fact bane arrows (your only example of brilliant thinking) were specifically already called out.
If you want to look at a collection of ammo that is actually worth buying, check out the 4e ammo selection.
As for that Hornet's Nest:
You DO know that Defending has been officially errata'd to mean actively being used (wielded) as opposed to just being gripped (hand on it/held), right, Ashiel? I mean, if you use the 'held' definition, it could still be in the scabbard, you'd just have to walk around with your hand on the hilt.
==Aelryinth
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I've seen it mentioned here and there...
...but magic ammunition is great for two things:
1) For relatively inexpensive NPC gear—you can give an NPC five +2 unholy arrows and that really helps bolster his punch, for example, without spending all of his money on a +2 unholy bow (which he'd be unlikely to afford anyway).
2) As treasure the PCs find, be it in an old armory, on a dead body in the woods, or whatever. They're the potions of the weapon world—one shot "OMG WE NEED AN EXTRA PUSH FOR THE BBEG!" type devices. I often drop in things like a +3 wounding arrow or a +4 human bane sling bullet or two in low level adventures when I get bored of handing out the same old treasure.
AKA: Not every single rule in the game needs to be a great choice for player characters. Some of them work better for NPCs or adventures.
I've seen it mentioned here and there...
...but magic ammunition is great for two things:
1) For relatively inexpensive NPC gear—you can give an NPC five +2 unholy arrows and that really helps bolster his punch, for example, without spending all of his money on a +2 unholy bow (which he'd be unlikely to afford anyway).
2) As treasure the PCs find, be it in an old armory, on a dead body in the woods, or whatever. They're the potions of the weapon world—one shot "OMG WE NEED AN EXTRA PUSH FOR THE BBEG!" type devices. I often drop in things like a +3 wounding arrow or a +4 human bane sling bullet or two in low level adventures when I get bored of handing out the same old treasure.
AKA: Not every single rule in the game needs to be a great choice for player characters. Some of them work better for NPCs or adventures.
James, it has been my experience that many GMs don't allow small amounts of ammunition to be purchased. The magic item creation rules don't allow you to make five arrows either.
So in many games it's "buy 50 or nothing".
Is there an errata, FAQ or ruling somewhere that covers making/selling/purchasing small amounts of magical ammo?
Common sense?
Ammunition can created in a maximum batch of 50 at a time. Not creating 50 is like not creating a 1000 gp potion...it's not a waste, it's just conserving resources. It will still take you at least an entire day, of course.
Which might be the whole reason for the 50 thing. If you can create 5 or 10 at a time, you can create very powerful arrows relatively quickly (several +10 arrows a day, actually), which could really unbalance the modular/time cost aspect of magic items.
Yeah, the more I think about it, that's probably why you have to create 50. From a common sense perspective, it's a no brainer. From a balance perspective...
I'd suggest that the time of creation for 10 arrows be the same as for 50, but the gold cost expended be per arrow. That would probably balance things out more, although being to create a bunch of +10 arrows for a special purpose does raise the hackles.
Look on the d20pfsrd under unique NPC's for a CR 24 red dragon, and then read about the paladin archer who killed it in one round...with a +10 bow and +10 arrows. And first round smite damage, of course.
==Aelryinth
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James, it has been my experience that many GMs don't allow small amounts of ammunition to be purchased. The magic item creation rules don't allow you to make five arrows either.
So in many games it's "buy 50 or nothing".
Is there an errata, FAQ or ruling somewhere that covers making/selling/purchasing small amounts of magical ammo?
First of all... I wasn't talking about buying magic ammo at a store.
(In my games, I generally have a pre-determined list of items that are available at low level—at which point I often put small numbers of magic arrows in shops. I've done this several times in print, in fact. At higher levels, I let PCs follow the standard rules, at which point they're not really interested in buying ammo anyway.)
For item creation it makes sense for game balance to have to create ammo in batches of 50 as well, and I wasn't saying that as well.
What I'm talking about is that as ammo is used, its supplies deplete. If the source of a batch of 50 +3 human bane arrows is a wizard who creates the arrows long ago, that's fine... he might hand out 5 arrows to his 10 minions. He might give all 50 to a fighter friend who dies in the woods after he shot 37 of them (so that when someone finds his body years later, there's 13 +3 human bane arrows in his quiver).
An adventure is generally not all that concerned with how a bunch of magic ammo starts its life, in other words. It's only interested in the present.
It's not errata or a FAQ reply at all, in other words, because I'm not talking about making magic ammo at all. I'm talking merely about giving it to NPCs or treasure in an adventure.
James, I know. That's why I asked "is there an errata, FAQ or ruling" somewhere, because I haven't seen it.
I find it interesting that you so casually say "at higher levels they're not really interested in buying ammo anyway." I think that is quite the revelation frankly.
See, my 22nd level 4e ranger buys a lot of ammunition. Because it's actually useful to do so and fun to boot. It would be really nice for ammunition to be useful and fun in Pathfinder too. Even at "high levels". Seriously.
I have not been addressing in any way, shape or fashion the use of magic ammunition as NPC fodder. Sure you can do that. Why do NPCs get advantages PCs don't get?
I really, really think you guys need to revisit ammunition and give it some serious consideration as a way to increase fun, provide a wide range of tactical options and increase the flexibility of classes. Just put one resource on it for the next PF release. Trust me, your customers will love it.
My archer has the party crafter make him +1 speed arrows.
He only need fire one of them as part of any given full attack to get the benefit, so they tend to last much longer than other magical arrows. :D
The party's flurry of stars ninja uses +1 speed shuriken in a similar fashion.
RD, please explain how you use "speed" arrows to get the benefit you are speaking of. How do you make them? I have never encountered "arrows of speed."
Never mind, you are making arrows using the "speed" enchantment for ranged or melee weapons I suppose.
Hmm.... I wonder how many GMs would allow that.
How much do you pay for one speed arrow?
640gp plus change for each one.
Why wouldn't a GM allow it? That's only marginally cheaper than a potion of haste, but it makes it so you don't have to waste round 1 quaffing anything.
640gp plus change for each one.
Why wouldn't a GM allow it? That's only marginally cheaper than a potion of haste, but it makes it so you don't have to waste round 1 quaffing anything.
One of the things I don't like about ammunition in PF is that it's not clear to me what enchantments are allowed on ammunition in the first place.
I don't have any problem with this though, except the price. Are you saying that each arrow allows you to fire one more arrow that round only?
Crafted I suppose it's only 320g each...
As a GM I would allow it. It's a very expensive way to improve your action economy, but it should work that way, one arrow per round. That's gonna get expensive, but hey, if you have the gold...
I don't have any problem with this though, except the price. Are you saying that each arrow allows you to fire one more arrow that round only?
I'm saying that if I could normally make 4 attacks with my bow, I could use the above trick to make 5 attacks (4 normal arrows plus one +1 speed arrow).
I don't have any problem with this though, except the price. Are you saying that each arrow allows you to fire one more arrow that round only?I'm saying that if I could normally make 4 attacks with my bow, I could use the above trick to make 5 attacks (4 normal arrows plus one +1 speed arrow).
I concur, but each round is going to cost you 320g if you craft it, or 640g if you buy it.
That's a lot. In a typical five round encounter you're spending 1600 or 3200g...
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James, I know. That's why I asked "is there an errata, FAQ or ruling" somewhere, because I haven't seen it.
I find it interesting that you so casually say "at higher levels they're not really interested in buying ammo anyway." I think that is quite the revelation frankly.
See, my 22nd level 4e ranger buys a lot of ammunition. Because it's actually useful to do so and fun to boot. It would be really nice for ammunition to be useful and fun in Pathfinder too. Even at "high levels". Seriously.
I have not been addressing in any way, shape or fashion the use of magic ammunition as NPC fodder. Sure you can do that. Why do NPCs get advantages PCs don't get?
I really, really think you guys need to revisit ammunition and give it some serious consideration as a way to increase fun, provide a wide range of tactical options and increase the flexibility of classes. Just put one resource on it for the next PF release. Trust me, your customers will love it.
Personally... I have no problem at all with a PC being able to purchase one unit of ammo at a time. Regardless of what that ammo is. It's as simple as dividing the total cost by 50 to come upon the per unit cost, in any case, so there's no need for errata or FAQ. All it takes is an open-minded GM.
Personally... I have no problem at all with a PC being able to purchase one unit of ammo at a time. Regardless of what that ammo is. It's as simple as dividing the total cost by 50 to come upon the per unit cost, in any case, so there's no need for errata or FAQ. All it takes is an open-minded GM.
Well, thanks for answering the part that didn't need answering anyway James.
Just please take ammo seriously as a game enhancing option. If you want ideas, check out 4e. I'm no fan of 4e, and I give PF credit for generally being far superior to 4e, but ammo is one thing 4e did better.
Personally... I have no problem at all with a PC being able to purchase one unit of ammo at a time. Regardless of what that ammo is. It's as simple as dividing the total cost by 50 to come upon the per unit cost, in any case, so there's no need for errata or FAQ. All it takes is an open-minded GM.
There really need to be more of those. :P
I allow purchasing of arrows in smaller stacks than 50. Especially really expensive stuff. Then again, I also fell in love with a lot of stuff that was in Baldur's Gate I & II, and some merchants sold magic arrows. Generally the more expensive they were, the smaller the stacks they sold them in; which was fine because the more expensive they were, the more specialized they tended to be (stuff like arrows of dispelling or arrows of detonation weren't things you wanted to use regularly, but in certain cases).
I've also allowed PCs to purchase used wands as well. I mean, there are apparently tons of adventurers selling used wands (or villains selling loot off the adventurers they've killed or captured), so they gotta go somewhere, right? Though if a PC asked to create a wand (or arrows) with less than 50 charges / shots, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to. The investment is similar either way, and it seems like you could create a wand without filling the battery up to full. :P
Alternatively, creating a wand with more than 50 charges would be easy. Just keep marking the price up by charges, thus requiring more and more magic juice. Seems less arbitrary that way than just assuming all wands everywhere are 50 charges (50 seems like a fine standard, but it's just weird to think that all wands always have 50 charges). I believe there was a wand in Baldur's Gate that had 100 charges fully charged (or maybe it was a staff; not sure).
I still think magic ammo is overpriced for its benefit; even by NPC standards (as I explained earlier). For the cost (3,200 gp) of those 5 +4 arrows, you could have used an oil that gives you a +5 bow for 15 hours (2,250 gp) and had money left over. The majority of the weapon enhancements aren't worth it. There's bane and maybe holy/unholy. Even those are pretty iffy sometimes.
I have to agree with Adamantine Dragon. It would be nice if arrows were more interesting and not just forgotten past the lowest levels. They have no interesting abilities, and the ones they do have are prohibitively expensive for both PCs and NPCs. It is for this reason I suggest carefully studying the item creation rules and magic items, re-studying them, re-studying them again, and then making your own special ammunition in the same vein as sleep arrows and the like. I posted a few that were basically ripped from Baldur's Gate I & II and turned into Pathfinder-compatible magic items.
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Hence like I said. With the exception of bane arrows, they're grossly overpriced. Melee focused characters are stupid not to have a dedicated bow. All you need to be good with a bow is a good strength, fair dex, and strong BAB. Even with a Dex penalty, on a martial character you're a fool to not at least carry one so you can try to hit something at a distance (your BAB alone helps a lot).
Really? Because if I have a 5th level melee-focused character with 10,500gp in wealth, the last thing I want to waste cash on is a magic bow. It's 2,400gp for a +1 composite bow, while a masterwork mighty (+1 Str bonus) composite longbow is 500gp. Add a couple of +1 arrows and I am good to go with as much functionality as the +1 bow at less than half the price.
As I level up, whether or not I upgrade the bow is a matter of circumstances: if we get more encounters at range I will, but if we don't, well, a few more magic arrows gives me more spare cash top spend on what I am good at while covering the contingency - especially if the party has a dedicated archer.
Edit: I disagree that arrows do not have interesting properties. They can have VERY interesting properties: you can enchant them with anything that a conventional missile weapon can be enchanted with (speed, seeking, distance etc.) and can also be made out of odd materials or have alchemical properties. You can take many spell effects and add them to an arrow - flaming arrows are boring? How about an arrow that explodes a fireball when it hits! Or transforms into a lightning bolt, or multiplies in many arrows in flight.
Magic ammunition is as interesting as the DM and the players choose to make it.
Enjoy.
A decent house-rule fix for cost, if you're trying to encourage purchase/crafting of ammunition would be removing the +1 requirement for ammunition. Fairly simple, doesn't require any change in how the math is done.
It means you can have a +1 bow and 50 flaming arrows for 1/2 the price of a +1 flaming bow.
I don't think the enhancement bonus of bane stacks with the enhancement bonus of the bow : it stack with the enhancement bonus of the arrow.
Let's say you have a +4 bow and a +1 human bane arrow; if you shoot at a human, the arrow becomes a +3 arrow... and it doesn't do anything since it doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus of the bow. (but you gain +2d6 damages).
If you had a +3 shocking bow, and a +1 flaming arrow, when you shoot the arrow only the enhancement bonus is replaced, so you have a +3 shocking flaming arrow flying at the target.
Hence your +4 bow shooting a +1 human bane arrow leaves the bow as a +4 human bane arrow. If it then hits a human target it gains the bane property of +2 to hit and damage on top of the +4, just like any +4 bane weapon, with +2d6 damage.
Hence like I said. With the exception of bane arrows, they're grossly overpriced. Melee focused characters are stupid not to have a dedicated bow. All you need to be good with a bow is a good strength, fair dex, and strong BAB. Even with a Dex penalty, on a martial character you're a fool to not at least carry one so you can try to hit something at a distance (your BAB alone helps a lot).Really? Because if I have a 5th level melee-focused character with 10,500gp in wealth, the last thing I want to waste cash on is a magic bow. It's 2,400gp for a +1 composite bow, while a masterwork mighty (+1 Str bonus) composite longbow is 500gp. Add a couple of +1 arrows and I am good to go with as much functionality as the +1 bow at less than half the price.
Yes really. All you want is the masterwork composite (so you can upgrade it later) and use oils in the meantime. 50 gp gets you 10 rounds of +1 bow. Good enough to bypass DR x/magic.
Meanwhile, as I said before, a 2,250 gp potion gets you a +5 bow for 15 hours, for those of a higher level than 5th. Honestly, at 3rd-5th level, I think all magic weapons are a bit wasteful. It costs an extra 2,000 gp for what amounts to a single +1 damage over a masterwork weapon. Nay, we can just use the MWK weapons and use oils when we absolutely need a magic weapon. That way we can also buy some spares, and a couple of weapons of different types (like cold iron, silver, etc).
Edit: I disagree that arrows do not have interesting properties. They can have VERY interesting properties: you can enchant them with anything that a conventional missile weapon can be enchanted with (speed, seeking, distance etc.) and can also be made out of odd materials or have alchemical properties. You can take many spell effects and add them to an arrow - flaming arrows are boring? How about an arrow that explodes a fireball when it hits! Or transforms into a lightning bolt, or multiplies in many arrows in flight.
Magic ammunition is as interesting as the DM and the players choose to make it.
Enjoy.
Err, are you reading my posts Dabbler? Those are all things I've said arrows should have; but no arrows have such by default; and are subject to having a GM who's not terrified or confused by the item creation rules (which seems to be quite a few folks, despite the rules being very, very good).
In fact, arrows that pop fireballs were the absolute first special arrow I mentioned in my games. Also, no, speed, seeking, distance, and flaming are not for arrows. I mean you can put them on arrows, but why in gods' name would you? The cost for 20 +1 speed arrows is 920 gp more than boots of speed, which are strait up superior in terms of usefulness. Elemental arrows are a sad, sad thing. I would actually consider distance or seeking arrows, if you didn't have a minimum of +2 weapon enhancements. Then they might be worth it.
Distance and Seeking are better better on bows. It's like you said. If your GM will let you use special ammo, then it's nicer to be able to throw that ammo farther and more accurately.
There's one instance of magic arrows maybe not being a complete waste. That's if the PCs give a report as to the value of consumables they used at the end of each session; in hopes that the GM will reset their WBL in coming games; because while potions and such get expensive, magic ammo gets far more expensive far faster.
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Actually, the enchantments you want on your bow or crossbow can make magical ammo a more cost effective (in the short term) option. for example, let's say you have a +4 distance seeking speed heavy crossbow. You're looking at 162k + mwk weapon cost. If you wanted to add flaming to the mix, you would be looking at an extra 38k, or you could have 150 +1 flaming bolts made and have a chunk of change left over. Or you could have a variety pack of 50 flaming, 50 shocking and 50 frost arrows giving you more versatility for any given situation, without the effective loss of an action that oils require. Also, unless your PC is a ranged only type, then 150 enchanted arrows should last you quite a while.
Don't get me wrong, I do like weapon enhancing oils, and have my PCs grab adamantine blanch when they can, but if your party is being charged by something big and nasty, taking a standard action to prep a weapon instead of making an attack (or three) can be the difference between victory and defeat.
Additionally, if you were to have a +5 distance seeking speed bow or crossbow, you have maxed out your weapon enchantment capability for that weapon. Magical ammo is the only way to get that extra bang for your buck, or gp.
My PCs just used magical ammunition too good effect by using ghost touch arrows when their bow wasn't ghost touch (or even magical).
So yes, there is at least one point to using magical ammunition.
Yes really. All you want is the masterwork composite (so you can upgrade it later) and use oils in the meantime. 50 gp gets you 10 rounds of +1 bow. Good enough to bypass DR x/magic.Hence like I said. With the exception of bane arrows, they're grossly overpriced. Melee focused characters are stupid not to have a dedicated bow. All you need to be good with a bow is a good strength, fair dex, and strong BAB. Even with a Dex penalty, on a martial character you're a fool to not at least carry one so you can try to hit something at a distance (your BAB alone helps a lot).Really? Because if I have a 5th level melee-focused character with 10,500gp in wealth, the last thing I want to waste cash on is a magic bow. It's 2,400gp for a +1 composite bow, while a masterwork mighty (+1 Str bonus) composite longbow is 500gp. Add a couple of +1 arrows and I am good to go with as much functionality as the +1 bow at less than half the price.
I don't want it for ten rounds. I only need that +1 for the two or three rounds it takes to finish the encounter. Up to 5th level, that's three magic arrows I need if I am not an archery expert. At 6th level I need half-a-dozen. I only need this many because I only expect to get into a fight for which I am using my secondary weapon once a day at most.
Meanwhile, as I said before, a 2,250 gp potion gets you a +5 bow for 15 hours, for those of a higher level than 5th. Honestly, at 3rd-5th level, I think all magic weapons are a bit wasteful. It costs an extra 2,000 gp for what amounts to a single +1 damage over a masterwork weapon. Nay, we can just use the MWK weapons and use oils when we absolutely need a magic weapon. That way we can also buy some spares, and a couple of weapons of different types (like cold iron, silver, etc).
A standard encounter lasts three rounds. If you spend the first round using your oil, you are giving a free round of action to the enemy. Sure, you can gain the initiative by scouting, but that doesn't always work out.
Round 1: Realise that there is an encounter, and you are not equipped for it. Change weapons.
Round 2: Apply oil to weapon.
Round 3: Start fighting.
That's just wasting too much time, and one dispel magic and it's gone. What makes more sense is:
Round 1: Realise that there is an encounter, and you are not equipped for it. Change weapons.
Round 2: Start fighting.
Oils and expendables are useful, they have their place, but having the weapon to hand without having to muck about is worth a great deal more.
I don't want it for ten rounds. I only need that +1 for the two or three rounds it takes to finish the encounter. Up to 5th level, that's three magic arrows I need if I am not an archery expert. At 6th level I need half-a-dozen. I only need this many because I only expect to get into a fight for which I am using my secondary weapon once a day at most.
That's a pretty big assumption. Most combats in my games - which are CR appropriate - tend to last much longer. The only way I could see battles realistically lasting only 3 rounds (especially with the HP boosts in 3.x/PF) would be if the GM fails at building encounters, and just grabs CR X creature and throws it against the entire party in a slug-fest. Archers burn through a lot of arrows (2/round pre-6th due to rapid shot, up to 7/round at 6th level assuming rapid shot, manyshot, iterative attack, and haste).
In the games I deal with, you'd be lucky if your arrows lasted you first encounter you needed them for. At 6th level, enemies are already in the zone to either outnumber you 4-1, or use PC-level tactics (your 6th level party vs a party of 4 3rd level PC-classed characters; which means that you can be dealing with illusory walls, pit spells, strike-vanishing rogues, and save or sucks like hideous laughter).
Dismissively suggesting that all combats only last 3 rounds is making a ton of assumptions about both the game and the GM's competence and/or the quality of the battles that you are going to be participating in.
Meanwhile, as I said before, a 2,250 gp potion gets you a +5 bow for 15 hours, for those of a higher level than 5th. Honestly, at 3rd-5th level, I think all magic weapons are a bit wasteful. It costs an extra 2,000 gp for what amounts to a single +1 damage over a masterwork weapon. Nay, we can just use the MWK weapons and use oils when we absolutely need a magic weapon. That way we can also buy some spares, and a couple of weapons of different types (like cold iron, silver, etc).A standard encounter lasts three rounds. If you spend the first round using your oil, you are giving a free round of action to the enemy....
Please, show me where it says a standard encounter lasts three rounds. The only time I've seen this to be true is on tests vs 1 CR equivalent enemy pulled from the MM/Bestiary; as explored by folks at Giant in the Playground, Brilliant Gameologists, and similar; but it falls apart if the party isn't just banging heads against a single random enemy out of the Bestiary. It also varies a lot based on what sort of creature you're dealing with. You'll be lucky to be able to take out a succubus in 3 rounds if she doesn't want to be stupid and melee with you, and luckier still to three-round a pack of orcs with ferocity at the levels you encounter them.
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Please, show me where it says a standard encounter lasts three rounds. The only time I've seen this to be true is on tests vs 1 CR equivalent enemy pulled from the MM/Bestiary; as explored by folks at Giant in the Playground, Brilliant Gameologists, and similar; but it falls apart if the party isn't just banging heads against a single random enemy out of the Bestiary. It also varies a lot based on what sort of creature you're dealing with. You'll be lucky to be able to take out a succubus in 3 rounds if she doesn't want to be stupid and melee with you, and luckier still to three-round a pack of orcs with ferocity at the levels you encounter them.
i think you misunderstood his post. i think he was saying that he will only need to use his bow, assuming a two handed fighter type, 3 times in any given encounter. which i agree withcompletely. if he is not using his bow very often then using magic ammo is a good idea, assuming he isnt required to make them 50 at a time.
Any use of a bow is dependent on your combat concept. Straight two handed fighters using a bow will have a completely different need for magical ammo than a dedicated archer build.
Personally... I have no problem at all with a PC being able to purchase one unit of ammo at a time. Regardless of what that ammo is. It's as simple as dividing the total cost by 50 to come upon the per unit cost, in any case, so there's no need for errata or FAQ. All it takes is an open-minded GM.
That's what I allow. The person making and enchanting the ammunition may be making them in lots of 50, but people can buy them in smaller lots. I even roll 2d20 to see how many he has in stock if he has any at all.
The halfling ranger has been making a lot of use of varying ammunition lots for his sling staff in the Council of Thieves game I'm running. He tends to buy as many human bane and evil outsider bane ones he can find for some reason.
I don't want it for ten rounds. I only need that +1 for the two or three rounds it takes to finish the encounter. Up to 5th level, that's three magic arrows I need if I am not an archery expert. At 6th level I need half-a-dozen. I only need this many because I only expect to get into a fight for which I am using my secondary weapon once a day at most.That's a pretty big assumption. Most combats in my games - which are CR appropriate - tend to last much longer. The only way I could see battles realistically lasting only 3 rounds (especially with the HP boosts in 3.x/PF) would be if the GM fails at building encounters, and just grabs CR X creature and throws it against the entire party in a slug-fest. Archers burn through a lot of arrows (2/round pre-6th due to rapid shot, up to 7/round at 6th level assuming rapid shot, manyshot, iterative attack, and haste).
1) 3 rounds per encounter is the basis the devs used to calibrate powers like rage and bardic song. In my experience, this is pretty average.
2) An ARCHER will have Manyshot, Rapidshot etc, a melee fighter (which if you read back is what I am talking about) will not. If he has Point Blank Shot it's because he ran out of things to spend his feats on.
In the games I deal with, you'd be lucky if your arrows lasted you first encounter you needed them for. At 6th level, enemies are already in the zone to either outnumber you 4-1, or use PC-level tactics (your 6th level party vs a party of 4 3rd level PC-classed characters; which means that you can be dealing with illusory walls, pit spells, strike-vanishing rogues, and save or sucks like hideous laughter).
You aren't reading what I wrote - this is for a MELEE fighter, carrying a bow for the rare occasions he can't get into melee, not an archer specialising in shooting stuff. Two very different situations.
Dismissively suggesting that all combats only last 3 rounds is making a ton of assumptions about both the game and the GM's competence and/or the quality of the battles that you are going to be participating in.
Like I said, it's the average for all the adventures I have played in under many DM's, baring extended fights where you take on one bunch of mooks, deal with them and crash straight into the next group.
Please, show me where it says a standard encounter lasts three rounds. The only time I've seen this to be true is on tests vs 1 CR equivalent enemy pulled from the MM/Bestiary; as explored by folks at Giant in the Playground, Brilliant Gameologists, and similar; but it falls apart if the party isn't just banging heads against a single random enemy out of the Bestiary. It also varies a lot based on what sort of creature you're dealing with. You'll be lucky to be able to take out a succubus in 3 rounds if she doesn't want to be stupid and melee with you, and luckier still to three-round a pack of orcs with ferocity at the levels you encounter them.
It does vary I agree, but on the whole I've found it to be as long as you are likely to be focussed on one particular foe. If you are fighting a succubus, you probably aren't fighting for most of the encounter, for example. If you have a dragon making strafing runs at you, you are only getting off readied shots as it swoops in and out of ranger.
TheSidekick and AdamantineDragon have the right of it. The melee specialist can carry magic ammo as a contingency, and it's cost-effective. He doesn't have rapid shot, so he only gets one shot a round under 5th level, 2 shots per round at 6th-10th, and so on. For this fighter, the magic ammo is a smart investment.
For a dedicated archer, it's a whole different ballgame.
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I really, really think you guys need to revisit ammunition and give it some serious consideration as a way to increase fun, provide a wide range of tactical options and increase the flexibility of classes. Just put one resource on it for the next PF release. Trust me, your customers will love it.
Please don't. It is fine the way it is. I'm a customer. I would not love it.
I really, really think you guys need to revisit ammunition and give it some serious consideration as a way to increase fun, provide a wide range of tactical options and increase the flexibility of classes. Just put one resource on it for the next PF release. Trust me, your customers will love it.Please don't. It is fine the way it is. I'm a customer. I would not love it.
Then you and I cancel each other's votes out Noretoc. I guess James will have to decide which of us is more reflective of the majority of paying customers.
He might take into account the fact that you can play the way you like if they improve ammo, but I cannot if they don't.
I'm still not buying it. At 6th level, even a non-archery specialized character will burn 2-3 shots per round. You've eaten more than the cost of an oil of magic weapon after shot #2. By shot #6 (3 rounds in), you've consumed 276 gp worth of resources for just a +1 to hit. If you were actually carrying special ammo, like +1 holy ammo, you're eating through 2,196 gp over 6 shots. That's disgusting. It's just too expensive to make it worth while.
First off, nobody should make a melee-only PC unless they've got some darn good methods of covering a lot of ground quickly. Every, and I do mean every Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, and Paladin should have a good bow or two to fall back on. If someone was going to play any of those classes and only do melee, then they probably would probably need all that extra-ammo cash for resurrections. Secondly, I'm actually rather astounded that it's somehow suggested that having special kinds of ammunition is for those folks who don't specialize in shooting at all. Like adamantine dragon pointed out, you'd think people who actually used bows regularly should appreciate special types of ammo.
I gotta go for a bit, but I'll continue this when I get back. :)
I always thought +1 Bane (insert random mob) arrows where good things to have. Place your effects that are universal on your bow and the situational ones on your ammo.
I kinda don't have a leg in the fight though. We houseruled that magic ammo doesn't break on impact, so that makes it much more cost effective I suppose.
Ashiel; its not that they don't appreciate more types of ammo. Rather, its that the cost of ammo is so high you are just urinating gold at the monsters and hoping the DM will give back the WBL you just spent to kill it, in addition to actually profiting on the endeavor.
Sure, everyone should have a back-up weapon but the ammo is so cost prohibitive for any of the decent stuff that it *isn't* a reasonable alternative. You are far better off just buying a scroll of GMW or something and having the wizard burn it over your pile of 50 arrows if you should happen to need it. (as a melee guy, that is) and for archer-spec'd people it eats so big a hole into their wealth they are bleeding gold out of every orifice if they so choose to use the stuff.
I don't think anyone is saying "ammo is useless". They are saying "ammo is way too freaking expensive".
-S
Solution:
Remove the +1 enhancement bonus prerequisite for magical ammunitions, so that you could have +0 flaming arrows, +0 keen arrows, etc. Such ammunitions wouldn't bypass DR X/magic unless they have at least a +1 enhancement bonus or are fired by a magic bow.
This would greatly augment the power of ranged specialists, however.
I'm still not buying it. At 6th level, even a non-archery specialized character will burn 2-3 shots per round.
Not 2-3, 2. Maybe not even that if you move. If you have a paladin who's a sword & board fighter, at 6th level he has three feats, four if he's human. That's barely enough for him to do what he's supposed to be good at, certainly not enough to take Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot to get an extra shot with a weapon he hardly uses.
You've eaten more than the cost of an oil of magic weapon after shot #2. By shot #6 (3 rounds in), you've consumed 276 gp worth of resources for just a +1 to hit.
If you use the oil, by round 3 you have only fired four shots. Those extra shots could count.
If you were actually carrying special ammo, like +1 holy ammo, you're eating through 2,196 gp over 6 shots. That's disgusting. It's just too expensive to make it worth while.
My practical experience is to the contrary here. Specialist ammo is going to be bane ammo for the creatures you will fight at range with a lot of hit points.
First off, nobody should make a melee-only PC unless they've got some darn good methods of covering a lot of ground quickly.
It's a question of feat economics: if you are a paladin or barbarian, you just do not have the feats to specialise in two things at once. If you are ranger, you aren't much better.
Every, and I do mean every Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, and Paladin should have a good bow or two to fall back on. If someone was going to play any of those classes and only do melee, then they probably would probably need all that extra-ammo cash for resurrections.
I agree, you should carry a missile weapon. At mid-level, say 3rd-8th, you just do not have the resources for a magic bow in addition to your speciality, and probably have to settle with a mighty masterwork weapon.
Secondly, I'm actually rather astounded that it's somehow suggested that having special kinds of ammunition is for those folks who don't specialize in shooting at all.
Because it gives you options for making a magic weapon attack on something that you cannot otherwise afford. It's a contingency plan, not the main event, so it gets a shoestring budget of 'good enough' rather than being the be-all and end-all. Sure, oils are useful, but arrows are there ready to be shot without preparation. If I've got a dragon diving toward me, I want to hit him with those dragon-bane arrows NOW, not mess with oils.
Like adamantine dragon pointed out, you'd think people who actually used bows regularly should appreciate special types of ammo.
If you have an archer, their best option is the best magic bow they can get, and then bane ammo for particular foes you know you might encounter.
Meanwhile, as I said before, a 2,250 gp potion gets you a +5 bow for 15 hours, for those of a higher level than 5th.
Ashiel, I agree that potions are a much better option than magic ammunition and I don't mean to nitpick, but doesn't it take a 20th level caster to make a +5 potion of greater magic weapon? That would put the price at 3,000gp and a duration of 20 hours.
Meanwhile, as I said before, a 2,250 gp potion gets you a +5 bow for 15 hours, for those of a higher level than 5th.Ashiel, I agree that potions are a much better option than magic ammunition and I don't mean to nitpick, but doesn't it take a 20th level caster to make a +5 potion of greater magic weapon? That would put the price at 3,000gp and a duration of 20 hours.
No, it's +1/3 caster levels, so 15th level.
My practical experience is to the contrary here. Specialist ammo is going to be bane ammo for the creatures you will fight at range with a lot of hit points.
Didn't we already agree that bane arrows about the only ammo worth having?
Solution:
Remove the +1 enhancement bonus prerequisite for magical ammunitions, so that you could have +0 flaming arrows, +0 keen arrows, etc. Such ammunitions wouldn't bypass DR X/magic unless they have at least a +1 enhancement bonus or are fired by a magic bow.
This would greatly augment the power of ranged specialists, however.
Yeah, this would be a good first baby step. I think Ashiel and I have both already recommended this in other threads. Simple, easy, logical.
It'll never fly.
No, it's +1/3 caster levels, so 15th level.
From the PRD:
"This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic."
No, it's +1/3 caster levels, so 15th level.Meanwhile, as I said before, a 2,250 gp potion gets you a +5 bow for 15 hours, for those of a higher level than 5th.Ashiel, I agree that potions are a much better option than magic ammunition and I don't mean to nitpick, but doesn't it take a 20th level caster to make a +5 potion of greater magic weapon? That would put the price at 3,000gp and a duration of 20 hours.
Well, there you go. The world my group is in doesn't even have any known beings with 14 class levels. I doubt that this sort of situation is uncommon.
Threads like this make me sad. "Because X exists, why bother with Y?" It's too reminiscent of /general whining on various MMOs. It's not a video game, people. You're damn lucky if your GM even puts oil of magic weapon or magic arrows in the world, much less lets you go to Magi★Mart and buy it instead of burning a feat or class feature on Brew Potion or Craft Useless Arrow. Not everywhere is as crazy-high magic as Faerûn or Golarion.
No, it's +1/3 caster levels, so 15th level.Meanwhile, as I said before, a 2,250 gp potion gets you a +5 bow for 15 hours, for those of a higher level than 5th.Ashiel, I agree that potions are a much better option than magic ammunition and I don't mean to nitpick, but doesn't it take a 20th level caster to make a +5 potion of greater magic weapon? That would put the price at 3,000gp and a duration of 20 hours.Well, there you go. The world my group is in doesn't even have any known beings with 14 class levels. I doubt that this sort of situation is uncommon.
Threads like this make me sad. "Because X exists, why bother with Y?" It's too reminiscent of /general whining on various MMOs. It's not a video game, people. You're damn lucky if your GM even puts oil of magic weapon or magic arrows in the world, much less lets you go to Magi★Mart and buy it instead of burning a feat or class feature on Brew Potion or Craft Useless Arrow. Not everywhere is as crazy-high magic as Faerûn or Golarion.
You realize that the DC to create an item that requires a CL 15 is 20, right? Even ignoring a requirement (+5 to DC), you can hit that taking 10 with a +15. That'd set it at about 9th level for the creator, assuming the creator only had a +2 Int, class skill, and sheer ranks. It could actually be done much, much lower. In fact, you could do it immediately at 3rd level if you were trying (-2 for masterwork tools, -2 for familiar using Aid Another, -3 for skill focus, allowing you to hit it at 2nd level taking 10, a full level before you can even take Brew Potion on a non-alchemist).
For someone with a higher Intelligence, some tools, some time, and maybe a bit of help, you can create a CL 15 potion very early.
For someone with a higher Intelligence, some tools, some time, and maybe a bit of help, you can create a CL 15 potion very early.
... which, of course, is a sterling example of how totally insanely broken the magic item creation rules are....