Okay, so I'm having a bit of an issue with player bloat.
You see, I'm running the Rise of the Runelords AP. When it started, I had 2 players, whom I handed the stat blocks in the back of the book, as the idea to run the game came off-the-cuff.
Well, after a rough first session, they wanted to rework the characters, which I was fine with. Since there were only the two of them, I gave them 25 point buy and two NPC cohorts that I would play.
A few sessions later, it was clear that I wasn't having fun running the NPCs. After a punishing encounter that nearly killed them due to some unfortunate environmental factors, I elected to change it up a bit - I removed the NPCs, pumped the PCs to 30 point buy, and allowed them to Gestalt.
And if it had stayed just the two of them, I think that would have been fine; however…
The next session a friend asked if he could play as well. They had just gone to the trouble of remaking their characters as gestalt and really liked the flavor that gestalting brings, so I kept the rules as they were, while bumping up monster stats in the background.
Today, I had two new roommates sign on to my apartment. Both of them (and their friend) are interested in playing the game as well.
I'm not interested in dropping their stats down or removing the gestalting. What advice can you offer me other than increasing monster stats, oh Paizonians?
Add more monsters instead?
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Hate to say it, but you may have to have them drop their stats. This is less of a power-balance issue, and more of a mathematical one: the d20 system is built around generating random numbers up to 19 apart (1 and 20). The farther away bonuses and target numbers get from each other, the less random things actually are.
To put it in perspective: in every campaign there comes a point at which your monsters will either hit the Wizard on anything but a 1, or can only hit the Fighter on a 20. The higher your point buy, the earlier that occurs. Think about that: would it really be fun to always roll your d20 either looking for a 1 or 20, and no numbers in between even matter?
I'd split down the middle: drop the stats a bit, and keep the gestalting.
Of course, I'm a big fan of gestalt, so take that with a grain of salt.
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My advice would be to start a second game. (if that's possible, of course).
I should add that they are currently level 3 and 3/4 through the first book.
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Since RotRL is being officially converted to PF and published in July, you can just suspend the campaign until then. Start a new AP and get RotRL when it is published. The new AP group won't have this problem, as you can dictate the point buy and other aspects as you see fit. When the campaign wraps up, you can return to the new and improved RotRL campaign. By then, the players should be more amenable to tweaking their characters for play balance. Perhaps they will have even come up with completely new character concepts in the meantime that they want to try.
Uh-oh. There goes the Aeon Guardians of the Great Balance squad, armed with its arsenal of rods of cancellation! See them as they ride forth on their mighty disenchanter beasts!
I'm not interested in dropping their stats down or removing the gestalting. What advice can you offer me other than increasing monster stats, oh Paizonians?
What do your first two players want to do? If you talk to them they may be amenable to non-gestalting or to dropping their stats. Otherwise, you will have to SERIOUSLY beef up the opposition!
This thread may help.
So, if I'm getting this right you've got a party of 6 30 pt buy gestalt characters, at 3rd level? The super-friends called; they've got some spots open on the team.
Seriously though I don't know the AP's at all, but I'm assuming RotRL isn't built for that much character. You've already bumped monster stats; I'd say the next step would be to trim the items as others have suggested. And then there's "conditional modifiers"; allow me to explain.
Haunts, spellblights, bad air, darkness, the "evil dead" force, etc. All of these are examples of stuff, going on in the background of any particular scene, which are anything from an annoyance to a lethal threat. They are vast and all-encompassing; they affect the entire scene so it hinders all the PC's, and better still it can't just be waived off or dispelled. The haunt resets, the "evil dead" force respawns, and so on.
As I said; I don't know the AP so I don't know the reality of working this stuff in. However I've done 2 games where I've used this device to bring the party down to the level of their adversaries. In one the dungeon was set in a series of lava tubes with an active fault nearby. It was oppressively hot, filled with bad air and tremmors every so often. They were constantly making Acrobatics checks, Fort saves, and regardless of the outcome acquiring "fatigue points"; if they had enough to match their full hp they were Fatigued, and if their total dropped through their negative hp to where real damage would've killed them they were Exhausted.
The other one was their first level adventure, against something called the "Swarmlord". It was a short little exercise, mostly skill checks, but then in the last room they fought first a CR 1 swarm (hard enough for 1st level), but then as they searched the chamber they realized that the earthen walls and floor were in fact...ONE GIANT HIVE! The way they came in was blocked, there was just a massive door which they knew led back to the beginning, because at the start of the adventure they encountered its other side. So as they try and puzzle it out the "Swarmlord" forms out of insects into a CR3 monster, monologues, and proceeds to attack. After a hard-won fight that dropped the paladin, they realized that the monster was slowly re-forming. The cleric at this point got desperate and started hacking at the hive...only to witness the re-forming creature grimace in pain. That's when they figured out it was a puzzle fight, like a video game - you have to hit key points marked with specific designs in the honeycombs, in order to end the thing. It re-formed, the barbarian kept it at bay a couple rounds, then went down as the PC's finished the job.
What is gestalt?
What is gestalt?
Gestalt characters are a variant play-style for DnD 3.5. It came from Unearthed arcana. But, since it is OGL, you can see it the the d20 SRD.
It is just another way to multi-class.
What is gestalt?
You select two classes that level at the same time. Each level you take the best stats from each class.
So a Wizard/Fighter would have Good Fort and Will save, full BAB, d10 hit die and both the wizard caster levels and the fighter class abilities.
Solve this by having the new characters come in as 'normal' and tell the primary characters that when they die (not if, when) they are coming back as non gestalt, and let them know you are 'balancing the game with extreme prejudice' and their fun over the next few games should be based on seeing how long they can survive or finding the most glorious way to die.
Nothing personal against their characters just the gods have marked them as chosen for death.
It might make the overall in-game balancing act the most objectively fun part.
Now if you just have a party full of power munchkins, this won't be interpreted well.
One of the reasons why I strongly urge everyone to rip the "Gestalt" section out of the books and set fire to them...
... quite frankly if you don't have enough players in the party to survive without gestalt characters, the answer is not "make gestalt characters" the correct answer is "put the friggin' books away and go make more friends"
That is going to be a tough team to balance. More monsters will help but higher stats alone is not going to lower bonuses to saves, AC, attack and HP that they have.
1- I would suggest substituting for similar themed monsters. Find a creature with a similar feel and a higher CR and use them in place of lower CR monsters. Bugbears instead of orcs. Flinds instead of gnolls. Were tigers instead of werewolves.
2- Giving monsters levels and similar stat bumps this will help balance but is work. I would save this for memorable monsters or to add some spice to the challenges.
3- Mounts, animals, and allies give the enemies flavorful allies. As players we assume it takes a druid or a ranger or some class with a mount or familar. However you do not need spell casting specific class levels to have a few ranks in handle animal.
4- Tweak encounters so that the pacing of enemy action puts them in a place where they are likely to have more choices of what to do next than they have rounds to act. One of the reasons Gestalt characters work is that while they have more options than single class characters they still have to act within action economy. There is nothing more anoying to players than enemies that flee. Now they have to chose chase down foes or finish the fight.
5- Cursed items. Don't just toss out more cursed items add them whether through found treasure of troublesome enemies but don't let them know what is going on, let the curse play out over time. A lot of GMs like to get the math out of their hands so the let every one know Jo-Bob's new sword is a -2 sword of vermin attraction. Rather than play your hand just do the math yourself and keep it a mystery. Let other detrimental effects playout overtime.
6- Tuckerize the enemy. Tuckers Kobolds were effective because they knew how to use tactics and harass the enemy. Use cover, reach, mundane and alchemical tricks to control the battlefield more. Archers don't just stand and shoot the flip over a nearby table and use it for cover.
7- Chaos glorious chaos. Spring a trap durring a fight. Quick story my first character once found a deck of illusion. He was a bard and at the tavern that night thought it would be fun to play cards at the table. The locals did not like that and many folks started to balk, call for guards and treat me as a danger. We did not want to use lethal force or get caught so the one of the other players reached accross the table grabbed the whole deck and essentially played 52 pick up. With numerous illusions standing around we rushed out in the mix.
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I encourage you to follow the fundamental principle of changing as little as possible. Try to hold as many factors stable while only tweaking one thing at a time until you get things where you want them to be. That'll reduce the likelihood of things getting confused and unworkable.
I like the "keep them at a lower level" idea. I'd try this first, as it seems to be the least intrusive possible solution. If it doesn't work, see what else you can do.
Whatever you decide, I would suggest letting the new PCs come in at the same power level as the existing PCs. I would stay away from any solution involving having different PCs at different power levels, since it tends to make the game unfun for the weaker players, and it also makes your job of balancing encounters way harder.
Alternatively, maybe you have enough interested players to start up a second game? Of course, that means a lot more time commitment for you, so that may not be an option.
In the future, if having only two PCs seems unworkable and you don't want to play GMPCs yourself, just let each player play two PCs. I played two characters in that situation once, and it was fine and fun.
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Just run them through book two a level early. Then don't worry about it, they probably won't survive the end of Book 2, if we are talking about the 3.5 version.
Seriously though, here are your problems, speaking as someone who had to run 9 players thru RotRL. If you aren't an experienced GM with time to invest in reworking the AP, I suggest splitting off of the AP and going homebrew the rest of the way. Otherwise:
1. The AP was written for 3.5 characters, so out of the gate its a little weak for Pathfinder characters, who are a bit stronger.
2. You have gestalt characters which bumps the power level up.
3. The AP was written for 15 pt buy characters and yours are double that.
4. You have 5 players when the AP was based around 4.
Any two of those things you could have just tossed an extra level on NPCs added a few more mooks, and call it a day. All 4 of those, you are going to have problems balancing the AP as is. If you don't have time for a fairly major overhaul of the AP, I suggest going to the Rise of the Runelords forum here on the boards and grabbing the modification for 6 players that is posted there. That will get you halfway there. On top of that, you are likely going to have to bump things anyway, but at least its not such a big jump.
For your own sanity, I strongly suggest you un-gestalt the characters or drop the point buy. Both of these together are going to make for some powerful characters. Either that or gestalt all the NPCs, which might make for a really fun RotRL game actually.
Is the group having fun? Maybe they've been playing enough that they want a little break from challenge, and just want that cathartic steam-rolling that only 30-point gestalt characters can give. If they're enjoying the game, I say give them the steam-roll, and when they start to get distracted at the table (reading books, constantly refreshing facebook, knitting...), then offer to run a more balanced campaign, or make up new stuff to challenge the party outside of the AP.
Here is what you do. Bring the new players in at 15 point buy. JJust before you have the new players join the team. The players that are are gestalt at 30 point buy go through an ordeal, magic door in a castle or dungeon, drink from a cursed fountain, sleep in an area or hotel room that is haunted, are the target of some new spell, or runamuck by a wild magic area. Whatever device fits the effect is that their personalities are split. Let them pick or flip for which class they keep and let them tweak their personalities. The other half of their personality takes form and has the abilities of the other class. Because of the twisted magic that split them the new versions of them are eeeeviiilll. The new characters are now split and lower their stats as if they had 15 point buy do the same for the alt class Npc versions of themselves.
the pt buy is more an "issue" that gestalt. Gestalt makes the characters last longer but they are still stuck with the same ole action economy. In any given encounter having 4-5 gestalted characters won't be as big a deal as the pt, buy.
But because of that, the easiest fix is just to start amping up the stats of the critters to compensate. You know your team will (or should) have the magic to back it up with healing after the battles so go for bumping the stats. alot.
Try +2 to all damage and AC and saves.. and keep bumping it up as necessary until you get the feel of it right.
Also try adding some class levels to some of the creatures.. even simple things like fighter or barb (don't sweat the small stuff just track bonuses for rage or wep training and such and go on)
Also, try to add a few more encounters throughout the character's day.. they should have a /lot/ more resources to spend even at low levels.. so don't stop at 2-3, keep it going for 4, 5, or 6. (read ahead in the book and just "adjust time" to squish things together a lil better rather than some of the down time given in the book to keep the guys moving)
-S
Start with the leveling slowdown. That's the easiest implementation and will adjust for most of the problems.
One of the next easiest solutions you will find is adding the Advanced template to pretty much every encounter. This will compensate for the 30 pt buy.
Add additional monsters to the fodder encounters as necessary. This will compensate for the player count.