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OK. Is it the GM's job to announce to the players the DC's of the Saving Throws before they make their rolls? Same for Skill DC's.
I only ask as there are numerous abilities or feats that state "You must decide to use this ability before the results are revealed. You must take the second roll, even if it is worse."
So for example if the GM says make a DC 25 Will save then in reality there would be no chance to use a feat like Improved Iron Will.
Improved Iron Will
Your clarity of thought allows you to resist mental attacks.
Prerequisites: Iron Will.
Benefit: Once per day, you may reroll a Will save. You must decide to use this ability before the results are revealed. You must take the second roll, even if it is worse.
I always interpret the "before results are revealed" as not meaning that you have to decide to reroll before you know if you meet DC or not, but before the GM told you what happened upon failed save. So if you failed you may decide to reroll before GM cackless with glee and says that now you are dominated (which probably requires reporting the failure as "I failed but wait, I am thinking if I want to reoll").
If your GM is calling it out when you make the check then I would probably talk to him about house ruling those type abilities.
But for the most part you shouldn't know the DC before you attempt it unless its one of those that everyone knows like the DC for climbing a knotted rope with something to brace against.
if nobody has an ability where it would really matter, I normally drop hints about how much they missed or overdid the AC/DC. That's houseruling however.
No you don't have to tell them, Drejk has the strictest interpretation of Raw, but is interely in the right. Others might see "results" as win/loose, but you don't have to tell them that they would have to roll a 20 anyhow so they don't have to bother to reroll.
No you don't have to tell them, Drejk has the strictest interpretation of Raw, but is interely in the right. Others might see "results" as win/loose, but you don't have to tell them that they would have to roll a 20 anyhow so they don't have to bother to reroll.
Maybe I wasn't clear on it: I would, as GM, told my players (in severe situations): you have failed the saving throw - do you want to use your reroll? It's your last chance before I tell you what happened. I find the very idea of having to decide rerolling before knowing if the DC is meet or not counterproductive. I am used to systems where rerolls work that, I never could understand the reason behind the way D&D demanded the reroll will e made before revealing success (Player: Uh, I rolled 7... I better reroll; GM: Muhahahah! You would succeeded on that roll anyway! You wasted your reroll!)
@Drejk, thanks for the clarification, both systems have their merit. The reason for not knowing if you succeeded is that you burn faster trough your rerolls (perhaps this balances the system better, not that I think those feats are too strong).
It's like a all those quiz shows where you got the possible solutions, and then you can still take a joker.
Other shows just give you the category, and then you have to decide to take a joker or not, before you get the real question.
Most shows I know (from germany) are of the first kind, and by that easier.
I never say the DC of a saving throw that a playe would need to make. If they have a reroll ability, there is an opportunity between the time that I say "you fail" and/or laugh manaically and the time that I say the consequences that a player can say "I want to use X ability to reroll". Then you can check to see if the reroll is allowed before the consequences are known, or if they need to reroll before sucess or failure is announced.
As the DM you should also be familiar with any abilties like that that the characters have, so that you know the appropriate time during the process to prompt the player for a reroll if they want.
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I think the onus should be on the players rather than the GM to use their reroll abilities. While they're 'second chance' type abilities, most players are going to have a decent grasp on what is 'reroll worthy'. This makes things like Spellcraft more valuable, too.
GM: BBEG casts a spell. Will save please.
Player: <rolls Spellcraft> succeeds
GM: It was <insert spell here>
Player: Nat 1's save - Erk, gonna reroll that.
As opposed to:
GM: BBEG casts Dominate Person. DC 23 Will save please.
Player: Rolls badly, decides to reroll.
I don't tell my players the DC ever. I don't want them shooting for a specific number and finding "missed bonuses" after a roll is made. Its not a matter of not trusting my players but it always seems like when a roll is missed by just 1 point that they start searching for some bonus that they may have had that could potentially have changed the save.
I say, "Give me a Will save please."
They say, "Ok, I got a... *roll* 23."
I say, "Ok, you save. You feel a spell trying to affect your mind, but you shrug it off."
Or I tell them they failed. Or whatever.
If I say, "Give me a Will save please."
And then they ask, "Ok, what is the DC?"
Then I would respond, "No, you tell me what you GOT and I tell you if you MAKE IT. I know the DC, what I want to know is your roll."
I also do not publish the AC of every foe on the battlefield. I feel this follows the same reasoning.
Its not a matter of not trusting my players but it always seems like when a roll is missed by just 1 point that they start searching for some bonus that they may have had that could potentially have changed the save.
We do it often without even knowing the DC... Mostly because two of our players are mathematically challenged when it comes to adding bonuses in d20 so we sometimes check them or remind them of their modifiers.
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I often try to find a balance. Sometimes it is just easier to give the DC/AC. When fighting a mob of identical creatures I just announce the AC and move on. Or when the AC of a creature becomes obvious I just state what it is and move on. Also in situations where the party needs to make a skill check possibly repeatedly, I just announce the DC to save time. "Ok everyone has to scale the steep slope. It is a DC 15 climb check." It is a waste of time to try and be mysterious in situations like this. Conversely there are times when being coy about the number can add suspense. It is really just a case of using your best judgement in how best to proceed.
What I never do is base my decision on how it affects dice cheaters. The truth is that no matter what you do they will try and find a way to cheat. And let's face it, the cheaters are almost always easy to spot.
If the DM announces the DC, then yes, your ability still works. He's just made it a little easier for you. However, you should not be obvious about your calculations in that case.
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Well in the case I listed above I am the GM. As there is no clear rule as to whether the GM gives the DC's before the roll I have always had a preference of not giving the players the DC.
We play with hero points and the players sometimes complain that the want the DC of the save so they can know whether or not they should add that +8 before the roll or not so as to assure themselves a almost guaranteed success. My response has always been "well, you don't know what the DC is." and some one asked me is that by the rules or was that my rule as I usually try to play as close to RAW as possible.
I will just go as I always have and not give the DC's the majority of the time.
Tell me the DC before I roll and I will never suspect you of altering it after the fact. Some DMs do that. Few do it with malice.
I usually reveal the DCs of common tasks. Everyone character knows that the DC to climb a sheer wall is 25. So I say that so that everyone is on the same page. Otherwise I say nothing that the characters would not know.
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Certainly any character with ranks in a skill, should have some idea of what tasks are within their expertise range, since they presumably practiced those tasks several times during the learning of those skill ranks.
They should know what they can typically achieve, given normal conditions and no distractions (ie, when using a take 10 result).
Unfortunately, given that fact, if you take the wording of the feats literally, that means they can never use the rerolls on any stress-test where they would require a roll of 10 or less. Which is barmy.
I'm a player not a DM.
Generally speaking, here's what i've seen:
at the start of combat, no AC's are known. the DM asks for people's AC as needed to hit them and informs them of the result. (hit/miss).
The players tell the DM what they roll, and the DM tells us hit/miss.
After a round or two into the fight however (after folks have been hitting/missing enough) then that breaks down.
The DC thing:
if we are making a saving throw we usually don't know the DC- we just know the category (will, ref etc). If its the same save over and over again for some reason then eventually he'll just tell just the DC maybe but thats more rare.
for skill DC's usually after the PC rolls the die, the DM will tell him what the DC is. such as
I diasble the trap
"I rolled a 34"
" ok thats a fail but the DC was 35" or something.
IC we treat it sort of like "the guy knows he either didn't come close to getting it, or was close, or fumbled it, or whatever" rather than just blindly stumbling along.
The reroll thing hasn't come up for us though.. so that might change things, for someone who had it.
or the DM just might handwaive it.
-S
The rerolls are there to protect against poor natural rolls, as I see it. You don't need to know the DC ahead to time to know if you're gonna use a re-roll power. You rolled a 2 on a Will save after seeing a wizard flap his arms and mutter gibberish? Probably time for the re-roll.
As for players wanting to know what DCs are so they can decide on hero points, that's so unfun and against the spirit of play that it would probably make me throw something at someone. Is it the BBEG? Are you a fighter? Did he just cast a spell and now you need a will save? Spend the hero point if you're worried. Don't try to mathematically game the system during big moments. Failure is ok...having it happen now and then tends to make adventures exciting.
If you're worried about having players accuse you of manipulating the DC of things on the fly, just make sure you have the DC written down/typed ahead of time whenever possible. Show them after the whole combat is over. If the still accuse you of cheating or something like that, then the group probably has some bigger issues going on.
I'm more inclined to believe:
I always interpret the "before results are revealed" as not meaning that you have to decide to reroll before you know if you meet DC or not, but before the GM told you what happened upon failed save. So if you failed you may decide to reroll before GM cackless with glee and says that now you are dominated (which probably requires reporting the failure as "I failed but wait, I am thinking if I want to reoll").
Over:
"Before results are revealed", AFAIK, mean "before you know if your roll was a success or a failure".
Because of:
A barbarian may reroll a failed Will save. This power is used as an immediate action after the first save is attempted, but before the results are revealed by the GM. The barbarian must take the second result, even if it is worse. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this power. This power can only be used once per rage.
Emphasis mine.
In response to the OP, I've seen it run both ways, as far as I can tell, neither is incorrect; its preference.
I never could understand the reason behind the way D&D demanded the reroll will be made before revealing success
Because there are different levels of power for reroll abilities. 'Reroll if you think you may have failed' is weaker than 'reroll if you know you failed'. just as 'Reroll, must take second roll' is weaker than 'Reroll, take better roll'.
I don't see how you could say 'make a will save' or 'make a fortitude save'. Characters can have specific bonouses like a bonus to fear, or a bonous to save against poison. so you would at least to give some idea of what they need to make a save against.
I don't see how you could say 'make a will save' or 'make a fortitude save'. Characters can have specific bonouses like a bonus to fear, or a bonous to save against poison. so you would at least to give some idea of what they need to make a save against.
Unless the character has a laundry list of bonuses against specific things, I'd say the onus is on the character to denote "My fort save result is a 22, 24 if it is poison.
We run in the "You must decide to use your reroll before you know if you passed or not" camp in all games I have ever played in, including Pathfinder Society organized play. It's basically there for what Sylvanite said it's for: if you roll low on the die and your character's total save isn't very high.
I don't see how you could say 'make a will save' or 'make a fortitude save'. Characters can have specific bonouses like a bonus to fear, or a bonous to save against poison. so you would at least to give some idea of what they need to make a save against.
In my games, it's up to my players to ask for stuff like this.
Me: "Make a Will save."
Dwarf: "Is it against a spell?"
Me: "Yes."
Dwarf: "Cool, I get +2."
Elf: "Is it against a sleep effect? Is it an enchantment effect?"
Me: "Not sleep. It is an enchantment."
Elf: "Damn, I'm not immune but I do a +2 bonus too!"
Person next to the paladin: "Is it a fear effect?"
Me: "No."
Person next to the paladin: "No +4 bonus for me."
Maggiethecat: strange thing for me, in the group I GM I know the players PCs at least as well as they do. I often remind them of bonuses they forget. But then again, two of them are relatively new females that really arent gamers.
We run in the "You must decide to use your reroll before you know if you passed or not" camp in all games I have ever played in, including Pathfinder Society organized play. It's basically there for what Sylvanite said it's for: if you roll low on the die and your character's total save isn't very high.
I don't see how you could say 'make a will save' or 'make a fortitude save'. Characters can have specific bonouses like a bonus to fear, or a bonous to save against poison. so you would at least to give some idea of what they need to make a save against.In my games, it's up to my players to ask for stuff like this.
Me: "Make a Will save."
Dwarf: "Is it against a spell?"
Me: "Yes."
Dwarf: "Cool, I get +2."
Elf: "Is it against a sleep effect? Is it an enchantment effect?"
Me: "Not sleep. It is an enchantment."
Elf: "Damn, I'm not immune but I do a +2 bonus too!"
Person next to the paladin: "Is it a fear effect?"
Me: "No."
Person next to the paladin: "No +4 bonus for me."
1. Sure, but in this case the question was if the DM announced the DC before you had a chance to decide. If you play it your way the DM can completely make useless these powers by just being a jerk and announcing what the DC is before you even roll. Thus, based upon your system, you'd never get to use a re-roll. No way.
2. That takes too freaken long. Every spell should not turn into 20 questions.
If the DM is announcing it before you can do anything, those abilities should still function. If he doesn't like that, you'll have to talk it over with him, but his style of play shouldn't make all those abilities impossible to use.
If the DM never says the DCs...that's fine. However, as a relatively unlucky player who hates to "waste" good rolls on things I can autosucceed on (skill checks mostly, since they don't autofail on a 1), if the DM calls for a skill check in a skill I'm quite good at, and can easily make the typical DCs for, I will try to ask, "I have a +x, do I need to roll?" Sometimes if he's stubborn I'll just defiantly "take 1." I've had a few that insist I need to roll only to reveal after (by others' results) that I didn't actually need to, because they believe a player should always have to roll or some bs. And that pisses me off greatly.
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If you play it your way the DM can completely make useless these powers by just being a jerk and announcing what the DC is before you even roll. Thus, based upon your system, you'd never get to use a re-roll. No way.
If you feel that is needed to change the how rerolling works because the master can be a jerk your table has biggest problems than rerolls.
If the DM is announcing it before you can do anything, those abilities should still function. If he doesn't like that, you'll have to talk it over with him, but his style of play shouldn't make all those abilities impossible to use.
If the DM never says the DCs...that's fine. However, as a relatively unlucky player who hates to "waste" good rolls on things I can autosucceed on (skill checks mostly, since they don't autofail on a 1), if the DM calls for a skill check in a skill I'm quite good at, and can easily make the typical DCs for, I will try to ask, "I have a +x, do I need to roll?" Sometimes if he's stubborn I'll just defiantly "take 1." I've had a few that insist I need to roll only to reveal after (by others' results) that I didn't actually need to, because they believe a player should always have to roll or some bs. And that pisses me off greatly.
You can take 10 in most skill checks. And while giving the actual DC of every skill check in advance is generally not a good idea, it is reasonable for the characters to have an idea of the difficulty category of a skill check, at least if it something in which they have skills.
However, as a relatively unlucky player who hates to "waste" good rolls on things I can autosucceed on (skill checks mostly, since they don't autofail on a 1), if the DM calls for a skill check in a skill I'm quite good at, and can easily make the typical DCs for, I will try to ask, "I have a +x, do I need to roll?" Sometimes if he's stubborn I'll just defiantly "take 1." I've had a few that insist I need to roll only to reveal after (by others' results) that I didn't actually need to, because they believe a player should always have to roll or some bs. And that pisses me off greatly.
Ah, that lends insight on some of your other posts. Good to know!
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I'm more inclined to believe:
I always interpret the "before results are revealed" as not meaning that you have to decide to reroll before you know if you meet DC or not, but before the GM told you what happened upon failed save. So if you failed you may decide to reroll before GM cackless with glee and says that now you are dominated (which probably requires reporting the failure as "I failed but wait, I am thinking if I want to reoll").Over:
"Before results are revealed", AFAIK, mean "before you know if your roll was a success or a failure".Because of:
A barbarian may reroll a failed Will save. This power is used as an immediate action after the first save is attempted, but before the results are revealed by the GM. The barbarian must take the second result, even if it is worse. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this power. This power can only be used once per rage.Emphasis mine.
In response to the OP, I've seen it run both ways, as far as I can tell, neither is incorrect; its preference.
Let's see a few example pro and against hidden Dc:
Aggression: The preacher may reroll an attack roll that she just made before the results of the roll are revealed. She must take the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the original roll.
If you know if you have been hit or not, what is that is not revealed?
Thoughtful Reexamining (Ex): Once per day, a rogue with this talent can reroll a Knowledge, Sense Motive, or Perception skill check to try to gain new or better information from the roll. This reroll can be made any time during the same day as the original check.
This one clearly work after you know the roll result.
Slinger's Luck (Ex): At 15th level, the gunslinger can spend grit to reroll a saving throw or a skill check. It costs 2 grit points to reroll a saving throw, and 1 grit point to reroll a skill check. The gunslinger must take the result of the second roll, even if it is lower. The deed's cost cannot be reduced by the true grit class ability, the Signature Deed feat, or any other effect that reduces the amount of grit a deed costs.
Say nothing.
Second Chance Strike (Ex): When he misses with a melee attack, the ranger may reroll his attack at a –5 penalty. Using this ability is an immediate action.
Work if you miss, so you know the result.
Mystic Insight (Su): At 5th level, a ki mystic becomes apt at giving just the right word of advice in just the nick of time. As an immediate action, the monk can spend 2 ki points to grant an ally within 30 feet the ability to reroll a single attack roll or saving throw. The ally must be able to hear the monk to gain the reroll benefit. This ability replaces purity of body.
Say nothing.
Ranger's Luck (Ex): Upon reaching 9th level, once per day the guide can either reroll one of his attack rolls or force an enemy who just hit him with an attack to reroll the attack roll. The ranger must take the result of the second roll even if it is worse. A ranger can use this ability once per day at 9th level, plus one additional time per day at 14th and 19th levels. This ability replaces evasion.
This one work after you know the roll result for the defensive part, i would say the same thing for the offensive part.
Cheat Death (Ex): At 9th level, once per day, a reincarnated druid may reroll a save against a death effect, energy drain, or necromancy effect before the result of the roll is revealed, or reroll a failed stabilization check while dying. She must take the result of the second roll, even if it is worse than the original roll. This ability replaces venom immunity.
This one specify that you can reroll a failed stabilization check, but that for the save it is made before knowing the result. no reason to specify it the reroll was always after knowing success/failure.
Borrow Fortune
When you make a d20 roll, you may choose to immediately cast this spell to reroll that die before success or failure is known, keeping the more favorable result. For the next two rounds following your casting of the spell, you must roll two dice each time a d20 roll is called for, keeping the less favorable result.
Clearly state "before success or failure is known".
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Fortune (Ex): At 5th level, as an immediate action, you can reroll any one d20 roll that you have just made before the results of the roll are revealed. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the original roll. You can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every six oracle levels beyond 5th.
Rewind Time (Su): Once per day as an immediate action, you can reroll any one d20 roll that you have just made before the results of the roll are revealed. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the original roll. At 11th level, and every four levels thereafter, you can use this ability an additional time per day. You must be at least 7th level to select this revelation.
Allegro
..
As an immediate action while you are maintaining a bardic performance, you can dismiss allegro to reroll a Reflex save or Dexterity-based skill check—you must choose to reroll before the result of the original roll is known. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the original roll.
Improved Iron WillYour clarity of thought allows you to resist mental attacks.
Prerequisites: Iron Will.
Benefit: Once per day, you may reroll a Will save. You must decide to use this ability before the results are revealed. You must take the second roll, even if it is worse.
No specification.
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Clear Mind (Ex): The stalwart defender may reroll a failed Will save. This power is used as an immediate action after the first save is attempted, but before the results are revealed by the GM. The stalwart defender must take the second result, even if it is worse. This power can only be used once per defensive stance.
Guardian Trick (Su) With a quick phrase of power, you attempt to foil an attack. Spend this boon's effect as an immediate action when an undead or outsider hits you with an attack. The attacking creature must reroll the attack, taking the second roll even if it is lower.
Two Minds (Su): You gain a +2 bonus on Will saves against enchantment spells or effects. At 7th level, you may reroll a failed Will save once per day as an immediate action. You must take the second result, even if it is worse.
All of the above work after failure/success is know.
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If you search reroll in the PRD you will get 4 pages or results, so looking all of them will be a bit long, but the above examples give us 4 categories:
1) rerolls where it is stated that you must make them before knowing success or failure.
2) rerolls where it state "before knowing the results"
3) rerolls where it states "after a failed save" but "before knowing the results"
4) rerolls that you make after knowing success of failure.
So I am amending a bit my previous statement:
I will not communicate success or failure to my players in the ability to reroll is something in category 1 or 2.
Category 3 is the most tricky as the GM should be careful not to communicate what the spell/effect do before the reroll.
With category 4 I feel that the player should know what is the effect. As I see it the character is dredging some inner reserve to overcome something that has already affected him, so it is reasonable that he will know what the thing do
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Some very good research there, Diego.
By RAW, we have several abilities that can almost never be used, and several abilities that are situationally useful to varying degrees.
Now, what we really need is to find out if the designers actually intended there to be the confusion of four different mechanics in place, or if they all believed they were saying the same thing.
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The rerolls are there to protect against poor natural rolls, as I see it. You don't need to know the DC ahead to time to know if you're gonna use a re-roll power. You rolled a 2 on a Will save after seeing a wizard flap his arms and mutter gibberish? Probably time for the re-roll.
But only if they have a save mod of at least +8, right?
Since you've disallowed anyone with a lesser bonus of ever being able to use the re-roll on a roll of natural 2.Using the strictest interpretation mentioned in this thread, that is what happens.
A natural 1 can never be rerolled by anyone ever, ever.
Similarly, a roll of natural 3 can only ever be rerolled by a PC with a mod of +7 or more.
A roll of natural 4 can only be rerolled by a PC with a mod of +6 or more, etc....
Can you see the pattern?
Do you understand why that's the case?
Good list, Diego, and good way of breaking down how to handle each. It would be convienent if this type of thing was a bit more standarized.
I interpret "before the results are known" as "before you do the math", so even if the DM announced the DC, it's still possible to use the reroll abilities
I thing the DM should provide at least a description of what's happening before asking for a saving throw.
Example: The party opens a hatch. Instead of simply saying "everyone make me a fort save", say "A terrible smell wafts up from the open hatch. Everyone make a fort save." Sometimes the DM will even say "A terrible smell wafts up from the open hatch. Everyone is sickened. Make a fort save." (because even if you make the save, you're sickened, failing it will make you nauseated).
However, there are some times (such as resisting disease) when you might not know WHY you're making a save.
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Copied in from a thread on the subject of the GM making hidden rolls, and which has more than a passing relevance here:
Just a question for those of you who roll a PCs dice in secret: if they have an ability to re-roll once they've seen the dice but before the results are determined, how do they do that if they don't see what you rolled, or don't even know that you've made a roll?
Feats like Lucky Halfling allow one character to roll a saving throw on behalf of another and let them choose which result (not roll) to use. They can't do that if you're rolling in secret as they have to know a save is being made to use it. Whilst some saves might be obvious, the feat doesn't place any limitations on when it can be used. That also means that certain characters need to know when another character is making a save, and what kind of save it is, preventing private messages from being handed from GM to player (as far as rolling is concerned).
I'd say those are some clunky-written feats.
Like 4E style encounter and daily powers, they're "I can do this totally cool move, but only once per day.".
Give a PC a mechanic for improving saves, by all means, but not one that encourages stepping out of the game;
Let them have as many rerolls as they need vs attacks they could see coming (and which they'd know they weren't going to dodge otherwise),
Let them make 'two rolls and pick the best' for tough guys who laugh at poison,
Keep a pool of ablative points that would be spent on a retroactive +1 whenever a Will save is just off.
For me, these abilities should be automatically triggered by instinct, intestinal fortitude, a guardian angel. They should just happen, then let everyone get on with the game. Not encourage the players to sit around stroking their chins and consulting an Excel sheet.
From my experience, any player with an ability that's worded 'decide to use this ability after the dice are rolled, but before the result is declared' is less in danger from the GM, than the other players, of whom there's always one who knows the DC of everything, and just has to yell it out...
<dice roll>
Uninvolved player: "Whoah, sucks to be you!".
GM: "Well, I was going to let you decide whether to reroll that, but since we all know now it was a fail...<sigh>..."
Affected player "G~&++&mit, Leroy, will you keep your damn cakehole shut, just ONE TIME?"
These abilites also run into problems when the roll is so low that the total after mods is 10 or less. Does knowing the result is less than the core mechanic base target DC (10+effect level+relevant stat mod) constitute 'knowing the result'? Most creatures don't have a dump stat in the score that powers their iconic attacks, after all.
The rerolls are there to protect against poor natural rolls, as I see it. You don't need to know the DC ahead to time to know if you're gonna use a re-roll power. You rolled a 2 on a Will save after seeing a wizard flap his arms and mutter gibberish? Probably time for the re-roll.But only if they have a save mod of at least +8, right?
Since you've disallowed anyone with a lesser bonus of ever being able to use the re-roll on a roll of natural 2.Using the strictest interpretation mentioned in this thread, that is what happens.
A natural 1 can never be rerolled by anyone ever, ever.Similarly, a roll of natural 3 can only ever be rerolled by a PC with a mod of +7 or more.
A roll of natural 4 can only be rerolled by a PC with a mod of +6 or more, etc....Can you see the pattern?
Do you understand why that's the case?
Okay, I'll admit it. I don't understand what you're saying here. Why would the natural roll + the bonus have to equate to a value of 10 to allow a reroll? Are you suggesting that a character ALWAYS takes the lesser result of the two rolls? That doesn't make sense... Most rerolls say that you have to take the SECOND roll, even if it is lower.
If your char has a will save bonus of +4, and you roll a 3 against a will save spell, you know quite well that a end roll 7 isn't going to cut it. So you reroll hoping to roll higher than a 3. How does having a low saving bonus prevent someone from rerolling?
If your DM is being uptight about this, perhaps you could announce before you attempt the first roll "If this roll comes up less than a 6 (or an 8 or whatever number suits your fancy), I'm going to re-roll".
I also admit I don't understand the contention that rerolls can only be taken by PCs with certain mods.
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Okay, I'll admit it. I don't understand what you're saying here. Why would the natural roll + the bonus have to equate to a value of 10 to allow a reroll?
If your char has a will save bonus of +4, and you roll a 3 against a will save spell, you know quite well that a end roll 7 isn't going to cut it. So you reroll hoping to roll higher than a 3. How does having a low saving bonus prevent someone from rerolling?
(emphasis mine)
Exactly. You can't reroll.
If your GM takes the hard line, that rerolls are only allowed, if the player doesn't know if the result is a pass or fail, then you automatically prevent the use of these abilities on rolls where the combined score is 9 or less.
The GM describes an enemy caster chanting and performing somatic gestures. The player realises a spell is being cast (base DC 10). The player knows the best-case scenario for his PC is if the enemy is using a cantrip (DC mod +0), and has the minimum possible stat to perform it (DC mod +0). Yes, the true DC will almost always be higher, since NPC casters with a prime stat of 10 should be few and far between, but we are discussing the auto-fail margins here.
Therefore the player knows he needs to score at least a modified 10, in order to save.
Therefore, if the modified roll is 9 or less, the player knows he has failed.
If the player knows the result, then by the ruling of the hardline lobby (the ones who hold to Diego's option 1 above), he cannot reroll.
Similarly, a player under such a GM can never reroll a natural 1.
I use hero points in my games, so this is something I had to address right away...since using a hero point after a roll must be done before results are announced.
* Before a roll is made, the hero may use spellcraft (for cast spells) or knowledge (monsters with spell like effects) to identify what spell or spell like effect the character will have to save against.
* Once that is done, the player may declare to use a hero point ahead of time to add +8 to the roll.
* Once the die is rolled, and the total save calculated, the player may spend a hero point to add +4 to that final value or to reroll (Only the last roll is accepted). This must be done BEFORE the DM announces the success/failure result.
* Note that only one hero point may be spent per turn. You cannot gain a total +12 on a save.
Obviously, if players have to save over and over against similar effects, they'll eventually figure out the DCs and use that knowledge to decide when to spend hero points. If a battle goes on THAT long, I'm OK with that as long as they don't take more than a few seconds figuring out what to do. My primary goal at all times is to keep things moving.
I do use that line, "Is that your final answer" before annoucing final results sometimes, as mentioned above. It does add extra tension to the moment. I love it!
I don't announce DCs or ACs as a practice (though, as mentioned before, crafy players figure them out soon enough). However, if a player wants to know a mobs strenghts/weaknesses, they just have to roll a decent knowledge check (I usually use DC: 10+CR). Depending on how far they exceed that DC, I may disclose that information if they request it, or say something more ambiguous. Having a bard or priest (Third Party class) REALLY helps parties who want to be more strategic in how they approach various encounters.
P.S. - In response to a few comments I scanned over.... the rules for hero points (and I believe feats that let you reroll) say to do so before the result is announced (Which is the GM's duty)....it doesn't say that it has to be done before the player figures out in his head whether or not he has failed. It's not too hard to figure out what range of values you need at a certain level to save vs. most stuff. Couples with the right knowledge/spellcraft, you even have an idea what you're saving against. That's the way the rules are written from what I understand, and I'm OK with that too. A smart hero digs deepest when it counts the most. And, he's probably seasoned enough to know when that is.
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The situation becomes worse for characters who have invested skill ranks in Knowledges and Spellcraft.
Since they become more adept at recognising dangers, and predicting the margin of failure, they become less able to call on their protective abilities.
A character with no ranks in Spellcraft only knows that some kind of spell is being cast, therefore the player can only predict that the DC will be 'at least 10'.
A character who has invested in Spellcraft, and who can identify the spell being cast, can more accurately predict the difficulty of the resulting save. And by being privy to this information, has an ever-decreasing range of die rolls eligible for rerolling.
Example: An enemy casts a level 4 spell, at two PCs, both of whom have an identical save mod of +5. Maybe it's a poor save for both of them, maybe they're low-level, but one has spent a feat. The important factor is that the saves are equal as a control factor, to illustrate how knowledge hurts you.
PC 1 has no way of identifying the spell, so only knows that results of 9 or less are auto-fail. Therefore, he can choose to reroll natural rolls of 5+.
PC 2 has ranks in Spellcraft, and correctly identifies the spell being cast, so correctly calculates the minimum save DC as (10+4+2=16).
PC 2 cannot reroll any natural die roll of 10 or less.
Ergo, taking the option 1 hard line approach means that the PCs who take most effort to learn about magic are the least able to take advantage of that knowledge.
Even better, the player of PC 1 does know the spell lists, even if his alter-ego doesn't, and is able to use the knowledge, whether shouted in-character by PC 2, or revealed ooc by the GM or players, and is able to make exactly the same mental calculation as the player of PC 2.
Both players roll their saves, both roll a natural 10.
The hardline GM rules that PC 2, being well-versed in the practice of magic, knows he has failed, and is therefore forbidden to use a reroll.
PC 1, on the other hand, being a relatively untutored, does not know that a 15 result is a failure (even if his player does), and can therefore reroll the save. The player, unsurprisingly, chooses to do so, based on ooc information his character doesn't have, and wouldn't understand if he did.
I think you're making this WAY too complicated Snorter. No where does the rules say he has to decide before he KNOWS. It says he has to decide before the DM annouces the results. The whole 10 or less rule you are suggesting above is not in the book, and it not a natural step for a DM to take after reading the rules.
The fact is, unless the DM annouces the DC ahead of time (or the players figure it out through trial and error), the players don't really *know*. After all, DC's fluctuate based on buffs and stats. Once enemy PC may have higher INT/CHA than the one who just cast right before him. There's plenty of organic things the DM can do to keep players on their toes if he so desires.
Personally, I have no problem with some meta going on in the heads of the players, as long as it isn't being discussed liberally at my table. Let's face it...the act of creating a character has some meta in it. The more experience a player has with PF, the more optimized their character tends to be. So, if a player makes better decisions about when to burn a hero point based on his knowledge of the game, more power to him.... just as long as he doesn't get ticked off on those occasions things do not go his way when elements he did not count causes things to go unexpectedly!
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Further question for the hardline 'option 1' camp;
How can a GM adjudicate how and when to use these kind of 'reroll but only if you don't know if you've failed' abilities, on behalf of an NPC they are controlling?
By definition, a GM knows the bonuses of the NPCs, and the DCs of all checks that NPC is supposed to make. Or if he doesn't, then he really ought to consider upping his game.
Do these abilities become inert, when present in an NPC statblock?
Should they all have the disclaimer 'not to be used by NPCs, under any circumstance.'?
Should they all have the pre-requisite 'Must be a PC, played by a person with no experience with the d20 core DC mechanic'?
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I think you're making this WAY too complicated Snorter. No where does the rules say he has to decide before he KNOWS. It says he has to decide before the DM announces the results. The whole 10 or less rule you are suggesting above is not in the book, and it not a natural step for a DM to take after reading the rules.
It's OK, I'm fine, I don't actually hold that hardline view.
I'm using the reductio ad absurdium technique, to show how that hardline view actually brings about the exact opposite result to what the hardline GMs desire or anticipate (a reduction in ooc metagaming).The examples are there to show that a PC who invests in the relevant skills, takes Skill Focus in deductive skills, takes time to gather intel, who prepares divination spells, who arms himself with knowledge, is punished because of that knowledge, by being forbidden to benefit from his characters resources.
There are plenty of posters arguing for that interpretation, within this thread. And one would hypothesise, a similar proportion of GMs at tables around the world, ruling that way.
Scene xx: The Drawing Room.
Poirot and Hastings are discussing their latest case, secretly watched by the murderer.
Poirot clasps his forehead, "Zut alors, mon leetle grey cells are working ovairtime. Of course, it is all so cleear to mee now! I know how thee murderair deed eet!"
The murderer decides to cut his losses, and operate the elaborate deathtrap several hours early.
Poirot, being the smartest detective in the world, being forewarned of the murderer's identity, and having an intimate understanding of how the murderer's deathtrap operated, has to stand there like a chump, and take the deadly blow (no rerolls for you, Mister Smartypants!).
Hastings, being utterly oblivious to all of the clues to date, probably having fallen in love with the murderer, and very likely to be musing on the cricket scores on the radio, is able to pull a reroll out of his ass, backflip out of the French windows, quick-drawing a pair of service revolvers, and empty 12 bullets into the eyesockets of the villain, before executing a perfect landing on the croquet pitch.
Ah, I see. Yeah, well, for the 'hardliners' out there, I suggest just sticking to the rules, which say "Before the result is announced." Even if they said "Before the result is known," it's never truely known by the player ahead of time since there are always circumstances that the DM knows about which can change variables quickly.
in my games i have no problem telling the AC of a monster after the first round. I like having the unknown for the first round of battle but after that its tedious for me and them to have them keep asking if they hit.
Regarding saving throws i commonly just say 'you need to make a reflex saving throw' then when they tell me the total with bonuses and negatives added in, then i tell them if they fail or not.
There are times, like when i know that a DC is going to be high, that i will tell them ahead of time what the DC they need to hit is.