I suggest a new thread. In the rules forum, where this discussion belongs. Gordon, you are the most concerned, I suggest you start it.
LearnTheRules wrote: All of that is moot however as you seem to be blantantly ignoring the fact that you just gave a first level character TWO extra attacks rather than one. If we make him a sixth level fighter then the example is wrong, i.e. you CAN make the kick attack. This is why I said "no, of course not," and provided the 6th level fighter version as my fourth bullet point. I think everyone agrees that the first two points don't work, because the character has too many attacks. I think you and I disagree on the third bullet point, which I see as being directly analogous to the first two points, but you don't. I do acknowledge that it is less clear-cut than the first two points, and I see where your point of view comes from; I still disagree with it though. I think we might both disagree with Aelrynith on the fourth point, but I'm not sure, since he hasn't posted since I came.
@Lobolusk: Yes, that is what we are arguing about, and I do disagree with you. I'm pretty sure that at this point we've all made all the arguments we have though, and I doubt anyone's mind will be changed.
If you want answers, take it to the rules forum.
blackbloodtroll wrote: I suggest a new thread. In the rules forum, where this discussion belongs. Gordon, you are the most concerned, I suggest you start it. I was just about to drop it, and I need to go to work now. I agree that this is not the right thread for it though, and I apologize to the OP for drawing this out. I might make a post in the rules forum later.
Gordon the Whale wrote: blackbloodtroll wrote: I suggest a new thread. In the rules forum, where this discussion belongs. Gordon, you are the most concerned, I suggest you start it. I was just about to drop it, and I need to go to work now. I agree that this is not the right thread for it though, and I apologize to the OP for drawing this out. I might make a post in the rules forum later. Thank you.
Last post before the new thread, honest :P
The third point was bringing natural attacks into it which do not take place using the iterative attack sequence but can be part of a full-attack action including them.
Assuming your sorceror has a BAB of +0, his attack sequence will be Kick or headbutt at 0/Claw at -5, Claw at -5. While I agree this is a terrible way to wage combat, it is possible. The rules do not stipulate anywhere that unarmed attacks are only punches. While a monk rules do state that the monk may attack with his hands full, here is an interesting snippet from the equipment chapter of the 3.5 rulebook:
Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of
nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch,
kick, head butt, or other type of attack.
Now this IS in the rules for unarmed attacks, pg 182 in the pathfinder core rulebook. It was moved from the equipment chapter, but now it should be apparent to everyone that it is not flavour text... kicks are viable for unarmed attacks, for everyone.
LearnTheRules wrote: Last post before the new thread, honest :P
The third point was bringing natural attacks into it which do not take place using the iterative attack sequence but can be part of a full-attack action including them.
Assuming your sorceror has a BAB of +0, his attack sequence will be Kick or headbutt at 0/Claw at -5, Claw at -5. While I agree this is a terrible way to wage combat, it is possible. The rules do not stipulate anywhere that unarmed attacks are only punches. While the monk rules do state that the monk may attack with his hands full, here is an interesting snippet from the equipment chapter of the 3.5 rulebook:
Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of
nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch,
kick, head butt, or other type of attack.
Now this IS in the rules for unarmed attacks, pg 182 in the pathfinder core rulebook. It was moved from the equipment chapter, but now it should be apparent to everyone that it is not flavour text... kicks are viable for unarmed attacks, for everyone.
Sorry about the double post I was fixing a grammar error and foolishly clicked reply instead of edit :P
Just have to throw my two cents in. Monks cannot use natural weapons while using flurry of blows simpley because the rules state it is treated as TWF. I would argue that a monk willing to forego Flury of blows and use the rules that apply to everyone he may add natural weaons to an attack sequence like the guy above demonstrated. On a side note the difference on a primary natural weapon and secondary is damage and nothing else. Primary attacks do more damage based on the size of te creature and get full strength to damage secondary use a smaller die value and use half strength.
Yes Flurry of Blows is a special case with regard to mixing natural attacks. It is its own type of full-round action which is why you need a feat to mix natural attacks into a FoB. You can TWF with weapons or unarmed strikes and use natural weapons in one round, however, provided none of the natural attacks require the use of a limb needed for iterative attacks.
As for secondary natural attacks using a smaller die, though, that is wrong. They use the same size die (assuming they would be primary usually) but lose the full strength modifier to damage.
Unarmed Fighter 7/Ninja (Scout) 13.
You get Clever Wrestling and you have pretty decent Unarmed Strike damage. Coupled with invisibility and charging, you will get some fun spike damage opportunities.
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