Hey guys, I hate to make a b&~$$ing thread but I am sort of curious how other people would handle the situation I find myself in. So a few months back a group member asked the group if he could bring in a new player that was currently going through a divorce because it would give him something to take his mind off live. So of course we all said yes. Now he has been with the group about 6months now.
I need to say first off that our group is very RP heavy, we attempt to get pretty into character. We do this even at the cost of causing ourselfs problems, "since we dont know". We ended a campaign about 2 months ago, during which this player really didnt do anything. Now most of us took it as him getting to know the group and it was not a big deal. Also we as a group had the core players playing classes that we needed(rogue, druid, rogue, tank, and him).
Now onto the issue, we recently started a new campaign. This campaign is alot more serious then our last and all of us are loving it. The issue is this player, we have had 8 sessions so far and he has died in atleast 6 of them. Now in a goofy campaign, like our last this isnt such an issue, but in this one it is becoming one. Now I dont want to be bossy and tell people what to play, currently we have a gunslinger, magus, paladin,a barbarian and him. Now part of the reason he is dieing is we dont have a healer and he often puts us into trouble, ill get into that in a second. He is continually making the same character rogue/fighter, 6 times now. So in my experience, it is usually the unspoken rule that when someone dies they come back as something that the group needs and he obviously doesnt feel that way.
Now I could easily forgive that, if it wasnt for one fact. Each character is exactly the same. He plays some kind of secret rogue of a good society, think robin hood rob from the rich and give to the poor, and he goes around killing innocent people when they give him a job. Again I could easily forgive this if he contributed to the roleplaying but he does not. In fact for a few sessions his goal was to get us to argue with each other because we all roleplay so much, we actually had semi party violence due to it. Now he didnt do this in character either. I think part of that issue was that he was bored since he wasnt roleplaying and that was one way he could be enntertained. Now we did put an end to that and he apologized but he is still making characters that die constantly. I mean at the rate my party is turning over, my good character doesnt want to bring more people around because obviously he is cursed.
Death Recaps (only a few)
4 sessions charged onto a boat some pirates were blowing up
3 sessions ago, was seen in woods by a party of 5 that we were following and instead of being taken prisoner attacked.
Last session he did not die but instead when my character was trying to talk his way out of a fight decided to shoot an arrow across the river and start a fight and then continued to shoot arrows and miss after I was Lance charged and spanked. He did this "because they called his captain(me) a heretic"...Now i also forgot to mention that our group posts on tg and it gets alot of feedback. So prior to that session someone called him out for dieing and I believe he read that and decided not to die. Which is awesome but not so awesome when you make the same melee build and then decide to sit back and shoot, when your clearly melee. If our dm didnt pull punches we would have TPK. He also did more but I dont want to rant too much =).
So my question is how do people deal with that guy, its gotten to that point where even the friend that brought him to the group wishes he didnt play. I know you can talk to him ooc, but what do you say in this situation?
Thanks
Y'know, isn't the game big enough to handle all types? Then again, maybe he's just the odd man out. I dunno, what you're describing is a crappy situation all the way around.
If he's your friend, take him aside and talk to him out of game about stuff and try to help him. Explain how the group "normally" functions and ask him to try to contribute meaningfully instead of being a drain on the group. If he's just an acquaintance, then the situation will be different where it may be the DM or the friend who brought him into the group who has to talk to him outside of the game to try to get him to work with the group better.
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Sounds to me like he's not right for your group. I commend your reasons for including him, as well as your perseverance in allowing him to continue. Now that you've seen what kind of player he is, you have a choice to make, and three options as I see it. You can, probably as a group, talk to him about how he is ruining the experience for the rest of you. Hopefully this will change things. If not, you're left with the other two options. You can allow him to continue to come to the game sessions and just suck it up, accepting his disruptive play style. Or you can stop inviting him to the game sessions and write him off as a loss. Perhaps if talking doesn't work, a temporary suspension will do the trick. Don't invite him for a couple of sessions and see if that changes his attitude. As Ioaba said, it sounds like a bad situation all around.
Really, this is a DM problem. At this point, the DM should be aware of his desires and include a tactical combat that appeals to his tastes in each session. Each session should have something for everyone; when that's not possible, the DM should be making sure that those people's interests who were skipped for a session should be first in line next session.
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I really hate the line of reasoning that it's the "gm's fault". He's working ten times as hard to bring something to the table, he has to know the stats to every monster, pre-read and re-read the module or prep his homebrew, a gm has to make entire encounters up on the fly when pc's run off-grid, aaand hope he enjoys doing it as much as the players do.
And then someone calls him out for something he really cant control. I don't understand this ridiculous notion that the gm is there for nothing but catering to the pc's, and damned be he who fails or is perceived failing.
Look at it realistically. Yes the player's being a chode. grats to him. Yes, you as a player, as well as the others, should voice your opinions to each other. This situation really falls to the person who invited the issue player in. That person takes the responsibility recommended here, and to talk to the person, explain what's happening, and ask for the player to think about what he's after in the game.
If that fails, uninvite him. Directly, maturely, and without anger. Not everyone meshes, and that's just tough cookies. You do more harm to the entire group allowing him to play the way he plays, because the frustration's going to grind everyone down. Not telling him he's a problem means that he will never understand there's changes to be made personally.
Yeah, I have to defend my DM alittle bit. When he was causing the issues within the players, I mentioned that if there was combat it might help the situation alittle bit. Even though the other four players are just fine with almost all RP sessions. Anyways after I mentioned it there has been combat in every session. Now some of these were because a fight was picked, like the one that put me on the end of a lance but he has included what he could. The issue is that I think this player wants to play PF like a video game. You just keep running straight into danger until it is completed. I mean if the DM were to make every encounter suited to this players needs I would be bored out of my mind because I enjoy encounters that make me think.
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Also, here is a link to our write up if anyone is bored and wants a good laugh. There are a couple prime examples of his character(s) in it.
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/18757535/
EDIT: Everything written in there he has come up with really, which is why I have to defend all the hard work he has done
Yeah, I have to defend my DM alittle bit. When he was causing the issues within the players, I mentioned that if there was combat it might help the situation alittle bit. Even though the other four players are just fine with almost all RP sessions. Anyways after I mentioned it there has been combat in every session. Now some of these were because a fight was picked, like the one that put me on the end of a lance but he has included what he could. The issue is that I think this player wants to play PF like a video game. You just keep running straight into danger until it is completed. I mean if the DM were to make every encounter suited to this players needs I would be bored out of my mind because I enjoy encounters that make me think.
I would say that is definitely not the DMs fault. The DM also has a say in the play style of the campaign, and if he doesn't want to play a hack and slay campaign, then players looking for hack and slay are in the wrong campaign.
I'm gonna agree with Obirandiath here and say the player's in the wrong group.
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Have you considered introducing a healing hireling type of character to help take care of the void in the party; the GM or another player could control the "Hired" Healer. The problem player might also like to try the Inquisitor class which might be compatable with his play style. I applaud you for trying to work it out; and good luck...May all your rolls be 20's...
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Is the player still mind-screwed by the divorce?
it is possible, I don't know the whole story but from my understanding he just made a young mistake (he is only 21). I read somewhere on here once that people play there characters based sorta on who they are and where they are at in life. So it would make sense that this would affect his play style. I also want to say I have nothing against the guy, and that's why I'm posting. Just trying to help my group as a whole, I've noticed the only thing we b%*$# about is him and that is stupid since this is just a game.
like shadow said eventually this will grind down the relationships with him. Now I won't be affected really but the other group members in my group who see him outside of gaming may.
Well, the friend of the player in question should take him aside before the next session and have a heart-to-heart with him. The DM should probably not allow the same character to be built over and over with the same results each time (unless there is a damn good reason, but I can't think of one to let the player play the same character 6 times in a row).
It also sounds like he wants something different out of the game (mindless hack n slash) than you guys do. Someone needs to talk to him outside of the game. Who is best suited to do that only your group knows. Good luck!
He started playing in elementary school with the friend that brought him in, so that isnt the case unfortunetly
What is it a case of? He wants more combat than the group? Is that the core of the issue?
Is he a hack n slash'er? I've grown up and gamed with quite a few of those myself. If he has traditionally been a good rp'er but now is indifferent to it then something is definitely amiss. If he's always been a hack n slash'er then the DM should be made aware of that.
Is it the player or the guy?
I admit it, I'm old(er).
I was divorced shortly after my son was born. The legal system was beyond unfair.
Getting back into D&D saved my soul. It allowed me to have fun in an aweful, aweful time.
Since you mentioned the divorce, let me ask again.
How is he doing?
1st insist me make a different character. 2nd make sure he is coming into play with a background that give hime some room to RP with. 3rd it needs to be suggested that now that the campaign is underway he might consider not just mechanical roles that help the party be flavorful roles that help the party. Giving life to the character through connection to the campaign.
The next is a question. Is he making ridiculous choices that make little sense that inevitably lead to his death because he is eager for a fight OOC? or Is he dropping because he does not get the synergy of his character and how it should be played tactically within the rules.
good to read from a few points of view of the same group.
Perhaps he just doesn't like all that slow moving adventures. You are like those people that look a movie that takes 3 hours and is very slow moving to really develop, other people like pure action without much backstory.
that he is distracted by a laptop would bug me hugely as GM, I even hate those smartphones for that reason, it's just disrespectful.
On the other hand it's completly okay to be unresponsive, there are those players that don't talk much, but they just like to be present.
Here the problem seems to be that when he gets bored, he actively seeks a fight.
I would suggest to try to build in straight fights in your RP-heavy campaign. Some low int demon charging you will be just fine, and build some RP around it.
His character will keep on dying, perhaps talk with him to find an RP reason that will keep on giving, perhaps he's from a guild that always send the next one when one dies, or he could be a reincarnate druid who just comes back and doesn't really mind dying, name him Kenny ("oh my god, they killed Kenny, ... oh here he is back again").
You said he's a Rogue/Fighter?
Why isn't he using UMD to heal himself? Does he not have gold or the ability to purchase wands?
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Sounds to me like this player is actually bored and easily distracted, and if an experienced player is making these mistakes that's a warning sign. If he has been through a divorce, I suggest getting him to see his doctor - he may be suffering from depression as an after-effect and need some support you guys are not qualified to give him. No offence to you, but mental illness is very difficult to handle even by the professionals, and he probably wouldn't realise anything was wrong, while events like divorce and bereavement are common triggers for such illness.
Franko, unfortunetly it is not most of our places to ask him how he is doing and give advice. Unfortunetly only Awe has known him for longer than 6months. We actually have a facebook group where we can talk among the group during the week and he does not ever even try to become incorporated into the conversations and its not from lack of us trying to get him involved.
Dabbler, I completely agree and I actually am in the health care profession. He needs to talk to someone and Awe has tried to convince him and he blew him off. He had a "I'm Divorced" party when it was finalized. I know that he is making jokes about it but I personally can not believe that he is actually completely fine with it. Thing is we cant force someone to get help with that aspect of their life, just like we actually cant force him to start playing like us if he doesnt want too
No, it is actually your place, no matter how long you've known him. If you really suspect that he's going off the depression dock, you or your friends saying something is likely going to be what he needs, whether he/you like it or not.
He's affecting your group, so you as a whole need to deal with it.
besides, its just humane to do it, comfortable or not.
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i was him, minus the divorce, when i first started playing. all i played were monks for almost 2 years(bruce lee). then my frind said try something new, so i did, played something similar but different enough to make me feel comfortable. my friend built me a heavy damage 2 handed fighter, loved every second of it, until it died from gm assassination.
if you think your friend is playing the same character hand him a new one and make him see why the character is bad ass. oh man this is a barbarian, he has a TON OF HP and hits like a truck, then when you rage you can do this and that and the other, i think you'll enjoy playing this guy. doing that for him my break him out of his comfort zone and let him see the light of why RPGs are awesome.
as for his mental health... im not a psychologist so i cant help you there. as for the dying every session, he doesn't see the value of his charcter, so he plays it recklessly. make him care about his character, give him a cool sword, custom created magical item. and let him know if he dies he loses the item. that may help him not do idiotic things with his character.
hope this helps.
Dabbler, I completely agree and I actually am in the health care profession. He needs to talk to someone and Awe has tried to convince him and he blew him off. He had a "I'm Divorced" party when it was finalized. I know that he is making jokes about it but I personally can not believe that he is actually completely fine with it. Thing is we cant force someone to get help with that aspect of their life, just like we actually cant force him to start playing like us if he doesnt want too
Then you need to make it clear to him that he is NOT okay. One definition of insanity is endlessly repeating the same actions and expecting a different result - and he is doing that in your game, is he not?
Of course he may not listen, and he may blow you all off, but at least you did what you could, not just what you thought was socially acceptable.
As someone who is quite able to disappear behind a laptop screen, I feel like I am an authority on the behavior.
Point-blank, tell him to stop it already. He won't like it. He'll bristle at the notion that he might be doing something "wrong" and he'll feel insulted. That's cool, you still need to tell him. The laptop is great for the character sheet and all, but it's still a huge distraction. After the shock wears off, explain that to him.
After that, keep in mind that a good DM can and will remind players that they have choices. If he's about to do something dumb, then freaking tell him that. That's not controlling his character for him or telling him what to do. It's giving him in-game feedback and helping him develop his character.
As someone who is quite able to disappear behind a laptop screen, I feel like I am an authority on the behavior.
Point-blank, tell him to stop it already. He won't like it. He'll bristle at the notion that he might be doing something "wrong" and he'll feel insulted. That's cool, you still need to tell him. The laptop is great for the character sheet and all, but it's still a huge distraction. After the shock wears off, explain that to him.
After that, keep in mind that a good DM can and will remind players that they have choices. If he's about to do something dumb, then freaking tell him that. That's not controlling his character for him or telling him what to do. It's giving him in-game feedback and helping him develop his character.
This, I don't always do it, but if someone is struggling and starts throwing out weird self-destructive ideas and are struggling with coming up with someone I always do the give me a "int" roll or "wis" roll (Roll a D20 and add the int modifier or wis modifier) and give them some advice as if their character realized it. Like, hey those robin hood guys might take offense to killing innocents. If they still insist on going after that, then the chips may fall where they may.
As to his mental health. It is usually always ok to say to someone that when life changes are big, good or bad, they generate a lot of stress and it is normal for someone to check in with a therapist or something of that nature to make sure stuff is going in the right direction.
Is there anyone in the group that has been divorced? It might be nice to have a heart to heart talk about it.
If not, have him email me through pazio, i can comiserate with him.
Been divorced, suffered clinical depression, just nursed a friend through suicidal depression. Available for common sense wake-up slapping or tea and sympathy.
no none of us have, so I can't have the same conversation about it because I know I can't relate. I could have the depression conversation but not both. I believe Awe is planning on talking to him about stuff in general. I will make sure he gets back to these boards before he does.
on a side note, I have to say I am impressed over and over by the PF community. Not just about this stuff but over all. Glad I left the other company
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He is continually making the same character rogue/fighter, 6 times now. So in my experience, it is usually the unspoken rule that when someone dies they come back as something that the group needs and he obviously doesnt feel that way.
Is he aware of that agreement?
If it really is 'unspoken', then he can't really be blamed for not buying in. Not unless another PC has died, while he's been playing with you.
Even then, you all need to maybe have that 'unspoken' rule come up in the resulting table-conversation. "Hey Jason, what you gonna bring as your next PC?" "Well, I can't help feeling we're leaning too heavy on the melee side, maybe we'd be much more successful with some support characters..." "Yeah, that'd work, something that mixes well with what we've already got."
It might sound elementary, but maybe he's not had to consider that factor before? He's always had someone else take one for the team, by playing what the party needs rather than what they'd most like, and he never realised they were doing it.
no none of us have, so I can't have the same conversation about it because I know I can't relate. I could have the depression conversation but not both. I believe Awe is planning on talking to him about stuff in general. I will make sure he gets back to these boards before he does.
on a side note, I have to say I am impressed over and over by the PF community. Not just about this stuff but over all. Glad I left the other company
Hope it goes well for him. Let us know, please!
100% no laptop, tablets or cell phones if they are holding up the game. That might also include asking others to stop even if their use isn't holding up the game.
It doesn't matter is his is 90 and played his whole life. If he has never been introduced to another style then give him time to adjust to it.
It does sound like the divorce is coming out in play. I've seen the same exact thim happen to two other experienced players in my time. They need a rage outlet and it's natural and even good for them to use a combat heavy Pathfinder to do it.
As a group you can try running two alterning campaigns. One combat focused and one rp focused. Let him know that the rp focused one will not have a lot of combat so if he doesn't think that will be fun he is free to skip out on it and just play in the combat game.
As a DM, one trick you can try is to have some missions where there is extra reward for capturing as oppose to killing an opponent. This way you can teach him to see value in alternatives to killing everything that moves. It might subconsciously help him in real life too.