please note. I asked this question in homebrew but they are different questions because here i am asking how the game resolves this by RAW and there I am asking how GMs would resolve this by house rule.
suppose you have two opponents. lets just call them Ready and Charge. they are alike in every way but name.
Ready and Charge are facing off 10 feet apart. out of combat Ready whips out his axe and readies an action to partial-charge Charge as soon as Charge draws his weapon.
sure enough after a bit of name calling Charge initiates combat and charges Ready pulling out his axe on the way. Ready of course partial charges Charge using his readied action.
rules say the readied action interrupts... but Charge was already in the middle of his charge meaning you would have to interrupt his specific action.
how, and also important, where would the actions resolve?
would it change if the opponents were 20 feet apart (both have movement 30)
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You cannot ready a partial charge. Problem solved.
I think the question is meant more like this: what happens in the case of a jousting tournament, when both combatants would essentially ready a charge vs the other one on the condition that the princess drops the hankerchief.
By RAW, that's not possible because charging is a full-round action - but even if it were, as the game let's people act turnwise, one rider would charge over the whole distance while he other one wouldn't have moved a single foot, which is nonsensical.
That said, in a situation like that, of course I would let them do it. They meet more or less exactly in the middle (if their speed is about equal) and both get to make their charge attacks simultaneously.
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It's odd that this issue has not been addressed in the rules, since it is certainly something that will come up now and then. I'd like to see and official ruling on it. While RAW it isn't possible, neither does it make sense to disallow it. Picture two armies facing off, each waiting for the other side to move. When one line finally begins the rush, the other does as well and they clash in the middle. I think Cyberwolf's resolution is correct, though after the two are within striking distance I'd allow whoever had the highest initiative roll to roll to hit first.
You cannot ready a partial charge. Problem solved.
This is the correct stance, there is no way to ready a charge. Your players/charactesr would have to find some other creative solution.
In the example of a joust there is no way by RAW to charge each other. Personally, I think that a partial charge is just fine as a readied action but there are avenues to abuse that way and it isnt RAW. - Gauss
By RAW you simply walk through the turns.
Character 1 readies an attack vs approach (assuming his opponent will charge).
Character 2 readies an attack vs approach (assuming his opponent will charge when he doesn't fall for his readied trap).
Initiative passes back to Character 1 as nothing triggered his readied action. He readies attack vs approach again.
Initiative passes back to Character 2 as nothing triggered his readied action. etc. etc. etc.
Basically this dance of readying vs one another goes on until one person does something like throw an ax at the other, then gets charged at.
Sean
But that isnt how a joust is conducted. Both jousters must be in motion and they must be in the legal section to attack each other.
Thus:
Character 1 charges.
Character 2 cannot have a readied action to countercharge. It is against the rules. He cannot have a readied action to attack since that would prevent his movement. He cannot have a readied action to move since that would prevent an attack. Thus, there is no joust.
- Gauss
Edit: an example (1 = character 1, 2 = character 2, --- is the illegal area, AAA is the legal area):
1----AAAAAAAA----2
-----AAAAAAAA---12
By the time 2 is able to attack (via a readied action) 1 is in the illegal area.
Properly it should be
-----AAA12AAA-----
Due to both charging at the same time. However, this just isnt possible in the current rules system.
Ha! I have thought before that I had read something a while ago...
The D&D 3.5 book Complete Warrior has a (short) chapter about Sporting Combat.
I think it's not allowed to quote all the text, due to copyright issues.
(We could debate about grey area for a while, like what the board guidelines say about posting a link to a free-to-access uploaded pdf version, or what about just a link to an index site of a person's uploads, in which one may happen to find copyright-protected stuff that uploader forgot to protect from the public?)
So I'll just paraphrase the important part.
Jousting: no initiative neccessary; in every pass, both attacks are resolved simultaneously (ridy-by-attack feat gives +4 bonus on attack rolls). Due to great momentum, a hit allows a free trip or sunder (vs weapon or shield) attempt.
So, as long as the rules of the duel say you have to attack immediately when the hankerchief hits the ground, you could resolve it the same way.
Of course, all that is only viable in a regulated combat situation.
Edit: Btw... A slightly variated situation based on the one in Gauss' brillant example would be...
1-----ab-----2
With "-" being empty (but in my case legal) zone, "a" being the farthest square pc1 could enter on a charge (which would make "b" the farthest viable charge target (ignoring reach weapons)) and vice versa for pc2.
They couldn't charge each other by raw. But I would still allow them to charge each other simultaneously if both wish to do so.
Cyberwolf2xs, I agree that custom rules can easily accomodate this. But really? Countercharging is a custom rule? - Gauss
Cyberwolf2xs, I agree that custom rules can easily accomodate this. But really? Countercharging is a custom rule? - Gauss
I totally agree that there should be rules for stuff like this.
LovesTha, the 'sport' version is just an example where the idea breaks down. The real issue is that you cannot countercharge in pathfinder because you cannot ready a partial charge. - Gauss
But that isnt how a joust is conducted.
True... but the question was how things are handled by RAW.
If I were GMing a joust in my game, I would just call for opposed rolls to hit and go from there.
If I had time to prepare the event, I would look up the jousting rules that were in one of the adventures in Kingmaker.
Sean
But by RAW (without looking up an the rules in Kingmaker which many of us dont have) there is no way. So your call for opposed rolls to hit is still not RAW, it is adjucation. Admitedly, it is obvious adjucation and exactly what I would do but that doesn't change the fact that 'countercharging' is not a viable option in pathfinder despite its real life application. - Gauss
Half-related... Wasn't there a 3.5 feat or ability that allowed something like a countercharge somewhere?
Also... Could someone please look up the Kingmaker jousting rules, for comparison's sake?
Players handbook 2
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I cannot remember right now...but does PF have to resolve initiative with a winner or are ties allowed?
In the case of a joust, if I had to rule mechanically, I would rule they automatically match initiatives. So the mounts move pass each other, but the rider has the chance to fall at point of attack.
You cannot ready a partial charge. Problem solved.
There is a feat that allows partial charges
From PF Companion Sargava - The Lost Colony
Rhino Charge [Combat]
Your charges are both violent and unpredictable.
Prerequisites: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, base
attack bonus +5.
Benefit: You may ready a charge, though you may only
move up to your speed on the charge.
Normal: Charging is a full-round action and allows you
to move twice your speed.
I cannot remember right now...but does PF have to resolve initiative with a winner or are ties allowed?
There are no ties, and no simultaneous actions. Someone will always go before the other.
If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll to determine which one of them goes before the other.
You cannot ready a partial charge. Problem solved.There is a feat that allows partial charges
** spoiler omitted **
Awesome.
Now all you have to do is take that feat an ready an attack for "when the opponent comes into my rhino charge reach" and you're good to go.
You cannot ready a partial charge. Problem solved.There is a feat that allows partial charges
** spoiler omitted **
Awesome.
Now all you have to do is take that feat an ready an attack for "when the opponent comes into my rhino charge reach" and you're good to go.
Just be careful they aren't across a chasm when you ready that action!
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As mentioned, the Rhino Charge Feat explicitly lets you Ready a Partial Charge.
Aside from that, even though the FAQ says you can't Ready a Partial Charge, it's rationale doesn't even attempt to cover Surprise Rounds or when characters are Slowed (limited to a Standard Action), so it's debatable that you CAN do so in those situations.
Anyhow, re: when the Readied action resolves, it comes down to the wording for Ready itself being rather loose regarding terminology:
To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character.
As the bolding makes clear, Ready is playing loosy goosy with terms like condition and action. To cut to the chase, I'm of the opinion that 'normal English' is being used here, NOT the rules definition of 'condition'. The RAW segues from speaking of conditions into speaking of actions... but IMHO this is an unwieldy attempt to cover what happens when your triggering condition IS an action... but if you triggering an action vs. when the beam you are standing on begins to collapse (which isn't an 'action' rules terms-wise), that aspect doesn't make sense if you stick with the rules definition of action. as another example, if we believe that one can ready vs. ANYTHING (that is a change of the status quo, because if it didn't change, it wouldn't trigger at a later point than when you Readied to begin with) one could choose to Ready against anybody who makes a 2ND ITERATIVE ATTACK. Again, that isn't an 'action' per se, rules term-wise, it's just a component attack of the Full Attack action.
SO... back to Charging... taking all the above into account, we don't need to Ready vs the Charge ACTION itself (although we COULD if we wanted to), we can Ready vs. 'somebody Charging past the line in the sand' (mid-way during their Charge action). Per a reasonable reading, your Readied Action goes off just before they complete the triggering action (crossing the line in this case, or drawing a weapon in the OP's case), essentially AS IF that 'condition' where itself an 'action' to be interrupted even if it isn't an action per se.
As another example of the bad grammar of this passage, read the italicized phrase. Clearly they dont' actually mean the TRIGGERED action (which is the action YOU are doing when your Ready goes off), but the TRIGGERING action (i.e. the action the other person was doing).
As mentioned, the Rhino Charge Feat explicitly lets you Ready a Partial Charge.
Aside from that, even though the FAQ says you can't Ready a Partial Charge, it's rationale doesn't even attempt to cover Surprise Rounds or when characters are Slowed (limited to a Standard Action), so it's debatable that you CAN do so in those situations.Anyhow, re: when the Readied action resolves, it comes down to the wording for Ready itself being rather loose regarding terminology:
To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character.As the bolding makes clear, Ready is playing loosy goosy with terms like condition and action. To cut to the chase, I'm of the opinion that 'normal English' is being used here, NOT the rules definition of 'condition'. The RAW segues from speaking of conditions into speaking of actions... but IMHO this is an unwieldy attempt to cover what happens when your triggering condition IS an action... but if you triggering an action vs. when the beam you are standing on begins to collapse (which isn't an 'action' rules terms-wise), that aspect doesn't make sense if you stick with the rules definition of action. as another example, if we believe that one can ready vs. ANYTHING (that is a change of the status quo, because if it didn't change, it wouldn't trigger at a later point than when you Readied to begin with) one could choose to Ready against anybody who makes a 2ND ITERATIVE ATTACK. Again, that isn't an 'action' per se, rules term-wise, it's just a component attack of the Full Attack action.
SO... back to Charging... taking all the above into account, we don't need to Ready vs the Charge ACTION itself (although we COULD if we wanted to), we can Ready vs....
Well done. A great analysis.
Its great that there is a feat to cover partial charging. However, has anyone else ever run into the situation where a feat is created that 'allows' you to do something you thought was already possible? Even after rereading the rules you find you still don't see it being prevented?
- Gauss
Its great that there is a feat to cover partial charging. However, has anyone else ever run into the situation where a feat is created that 'allows' you to do something you thought was already possible? Even after rereading the rules you find you still don't see it being prevented?
- Gauss
Occasionally. Sometimes it's because I had a faulty impression of the rules. Sometimes, it's because the feat is borked, like "prone shooter".