Which causes more damage, on average?
1d10 (18-20/x2) vs 2d6 (19-20/x2)?
1d10 (15-20/x2) vs 2d6 (17-20/x2)?
1d10 (5.5)
(5.5*1.15)= 6.325
(5.5*1.30)= 7.15
2d6 (7)
(7*1.1)= 7.7
(7*1.1)= 8.4
It's all x2, so it's basically 5% more for each incriment of crit range times the base damage
HOWEVER
The more bonus damage you add in, the more it favors the higher crit range. In the grand scheme you take the higher crit range.
Examples of +10 damage (ie PA and strength)
1d10..../...2d6
17.825../...18.7
20.15.../...20.4
+20
1d10..../...2d6
29.325../...29.7
33.15.../...32.4
The average damage of 2d6 (7) makes even a Greatsword that never crits better than a non-keen ECB, and a non-keen Greatsword better than a Keen ECB.
[At 95% hit chance, the ECB's average is 6.008 with crits. A non-crit 2d6 gives you 6.65 with no crits, or 7.315 with the normal threat range... while the actual numbers change, this is true all the way up to a 15% hit chance -- and certainly true beyond that when the expanded threat range doesn't help anymore]
2d6 average damage is 7, 14 on crit
1d10 average damage is 5.5, 11 on crit
Assuming hits on 15's and up, that puts the damage table for the greatsword as:
15 - 7
16 - 7
17 - 7
18 - 7
19 - 14
20 - 14
Total - 56
15 - 5.5
16 - 5.5
17 - 5.5
18 - 11
19 - 11
20 - 11
Total - 49.5
Improved Critical
15 - 7
16 - 7
17 - 14
18 - 14
19 - 14
20 - 14
Total - 70
15 - 11
16 - 11
17 - 11
18 - 11
19 - 11
20 - 11
Total - 66
Greatsword handily wins out, further spreading the gap by 1.5 damage per step for every registered hit at a die roll of 14 or below. The extra crit potential doesn't close this gap at the minimum range, average range, or maximum range.
Add in your bonus to damage guys, you'll see the higher crit range pull ahead, and it isn't by that much. The answer is that higher crit range matters later in the game, but only by a little bit. In reality we're talking about one more point or one less point of damage on average either way. It's not a huge deal, use what you like.
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Add in your bonus to damage guys, you'll see the higher crit range pull ahead.
This. Greatswords are better if you have a very small bonus to damage, but the Curveblade pulls ahead if you have a large one (and with Str 18, Power Attack, and 4th level you probably manage a +13 at least, all of which doubles on a crit).
EDIT: Example (stealing Asterclement Swarthington's format):
Assuming hits on 15's and up, that puts the damage table for the greatsword as:
15 - 20
16 - 20
17 - 20
18 - 20
19 - 40
20 - 40
Total - 160
15 - 18.5
16 - 18.5
17 - 18.5
18 - 37
19 - 37
20 - 37
Total - 166.5
Improved Critical
15 - 20
16 - 20
17 - 40
18 - 40
19 - 40
20 - 40
Total - 200
15 - 37
16 - 37
17 - 37
18 - 37
19 - 37
20 - 37
Total - 222
Now this is actually a bad format, because it ignores the chance of failing to confirm the critical, and also you usually hit on less than a 15 (and expanding the number of non-critical hits helps the Greatsword, statistically). You actually need a damage bonus higher than +13 for the Curveblade to really pul ahead, but it does do so.
Depends -- With non-keen weapons, you need a bonus of +28 for the ECB to pull ahead, or +13 with keens.
Add in your bonus to damage guys, you'll see the higher crit range pull ahead.
This is true. If you get at least a base of +10 damage, it will adjust the totals as follows:
Greatsword: 136, Curve Blade: 139.5
Imp Crit Greatsword: 170, imp crit curve blade: 186
So the lower the additional modifiers to damage, the better the greatsword performs. The higher the modifiers to damage the better the curve blade performs. A large hit range (hits on 2+) favors greatsword by closing the gap by 19.5 damage. A damage modifier of +20 makes even this advantage go away and lends favor back to the Curve Blade.
Swarthington's tables assume all crits confirm. If you do the math with a hit percentage applied for confirmation, the tipover points are +13 for keen, +28 for non-keen.
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Add in your bonus to damage guys, you'll see the higher crit range pull ahead.This is true. If you get at least a base of +10 damage, it will adjust the totals as follows:
Greatsword: 136, Curve Blade: 139.5
Imp Crit Greatsword: 170, imp crit curve blade: 186
So the lower the additional modifiers to damage, the better the greatsword performs. The higher the modifiers to damage the better the curve blade performs. A large hit range (hits on 2+) favors greatsword by closing the gap by 19.5 damage. A damage modifier of +20 makes even this advantage go away and lends favor back to the Curve Blade.
So an 18 to strength and a +4 BAB with Power Attack pulls the curve blade ahead handily, and it only becomes a bigger gap as time goes on.
Now i'm not sure if I should keep my earthbreaker for my sundering barbarian and just have him use his keen greatsword instead.
Btw do we know where the breaking point is for the greatsword and eleven curve blade? With the higher damage includes in of course. So that we can say (for example- at +12 damage is the break point. They are either equal or three curve blade just overtook the great sword. Not that it really matters because the numbers are close enough to just roleplay how you want.
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Are there any other feats that add a damage bonus that doubles on a crit? The only ones I can think of are Weapon Specialization. Trouble is, that assumes you're a fighter, and that you took Weapon Focus for the weapon of your choice. Not a big deal, except that Weapon Focus expects you to pick a weapon early and commit to it. We've already established that the Greatsword is better in the early levels when your BAB is low, and this is when most folks take Weapon Focus. By the time you get to 4th level and qualify for Weapon Spec., the Curve Blade has pulled ahead, so you either took WF: Greatsword because it was the best choice then and now you're regretting it, or you took WF: Curveblade in anticipation of this day, and gambled that you'd make it this far without a TPK.
There's also the issue that the Elven Curve Blade's biggest draw is that you can use Weapon Finesse with it. But if your Dex is that much higher than your Str, then you likely don't have enough bonus damage to make the Curve Blade better than the Greatsword... excpet you'd hit with it more often, so...
My brain hurts now.
Now i'm not sure if I should keep my earthbreaker for my sundering barbarian and just have him use his keen greatsword instead.
Btw do we know where the breaking point is for the greatsword and eleven curve blade? With the higher damage includes in of course. So that we can say (for example- at +12 damage is the break point. They are either equal or three curve blade just overtook the great sword. Not that it really matters because the numbers are close enough to just roleplay how you want.
The break point constantly moves based upon the target's AC, DR, etc. I would say +15 damage is a safe point to give the curve blade a clear advantage in most situations. Even then, extremely easy to hit targets might be worse on the curve blade, but those aren't really a huge thing to bank on typically.
I ran the numbers once from level 1 through 20.
Premise:
Human Two Handed Fighter archetype with a starting strength of 18 (maxing it out by level).
Equipment:
Gloves of dueling (level12)
Enhancement bonus (+1@4, +2@8, +3@11, +4@13, and +5@16)
Belt of strength (+2@5, +4@11, +6@14).
Feats: Weapon Focus@1(2for curve blade due to exotic proficiency), Power Attack@1, Furious Focus@1, Weapon Spec@4, Gr. Weapon Focus@8, Imp. Crit@9, Gr. Weapon Spec@12. Vital Strike tree@6, 11, 16, Dev Strike@10.
Using Full Attack (no haste/speed).
At level 1-8 the Greatsword wins by less than 1point DPR.
At level 9-12 Curve blade wins by 2-4pts DPR.
At level 13-19 Curve blade wins by 6-12pts.
At level 20 Curve Blade wins by 42.7points due to auto-confirmation on criticals.
With haste or speed these differences become more pronounced at higher levels.
Using Vital Strike tree:
From levels 1-18 the difference in damage is always less than 1.5pts with Greatsword being the winner at most levels. From 19-20 The greatsword wins by 7-8points.
Summary: With the difference being small at early levels but large at later levels it really depends on how long your campaign will run. Additionally, to gain the benefit of the curve blade you either have to sacrifice 2 points of strength (being elven) OR burn a feat. The build above used the burn a feat option.
Additionally, this does not factor in burst weapons. Burst weapons will favor the curve blade.
- Gauss
Edit: Forgot to add Dev Strike to the list of feats. It was in my build, I just forgot to list it.
The break point constantly moves based upon the target's AC, DR, etc. I would say +15 damage is a safe point to give the curve blade a clear advantage in most situations. Even then, extremely easy to hit targets might be worse on the curve blade, but those aren't really a huge thing to bank on typically.Now i'm not sure if I should keep my earthbreaker for my sundering barbarian and just have him use his keen greatsword instead.
Btw do we know where the breaking point is for the greatsword and eleven curve blade? With the higher damage includes in of course. So that we can say (for example- at +12 damage is the break point. They are either equal or three curve blade just overtook the great sword. Not that it really matters because the numbers are close enough to just roleplay how you want.
While you are correct that the breakpoint moves for the purposes of comparison Table 1-1 in the bestiary is used as the baseline AC.
Are there any other feats that add a damage bonus that doubles on a crit?
Power Attack
Devastating Strike (for vital strikers)Double Slice (for two weapon fighters)
I'm sure there's others but that's all I saw with a quick glance.
Now i'm not sure if I should keep my earthbreaker for my sundering barbarian and just have him use his keen greatsword instead.
Btw do we know where the breaking point is for the greatsword and eleven curve blade? With the higher damage includes in of course. So that we can say (for example- at +12 damage is the break point. They are either equal or three curve blade just overtook the great sword. Not that it really matters because the numbers are close enough to just roleplay how you want.
Earthbreaker and greatsword are statistically identical (Assuming both have or do not have expanded threat ranges).
While they are identical, I always prefer a greatsword over the earthbreaker for one simple reason: multiple criticals are better than one big critical.
Scenario 1:
You are facing two bad guys.
Earthbreaker: you critical one and do not critical the other. One dies in a bloody overkilled mess, the other lives and continues to fight.
Great Sword: you critical both and they both die.
Scenario 2:
You are facing one bad guy.
Earthbreaker: you critical him doing x3 damage and hit him a second time. He dies.
Great Sword: you critical him twice doing x2 and x2 damage. Same exact damage as the earthbreaker. He dies.
Lesson: spreading out the damage is better IF the actual damage over time is equal.
- Gauss
I'm no mathematician, but I think the technical answer is that they both do the same amount of damage, but the one with the larger crit range does a greater amount (a crit) more often. So for any *particular* attack, they are identical, it is just that one causes criticals more often, which, statistically speaking, over time, means more damage than the one with the smaller range.
Right?
Kelvar, the Earthbreaker and the Greatsword both have identical Damage per round.
Greatsword = 2d6, 19-20/x2
Earthbreaker = 2d6, 20/x3
Averaged out over time they have statistically identical damage per round (DPR). When you add improved critical to both of them the balance is maintained. As a result you can go with the weapon with the greater single hit...or the weapon with more (albeit smaller) big hits. As I was pointing out earlier, I opt for the smaller big hits since that will benefit a character more in most combat situations.
- Gauss
Edit: an explanation
To explain how they are equal we do a simple comparison: They both do 10points of damage per hit. Assume they swing 20 times and hit 19times with the earthbreaker doing 1 critical and the greatsword doing 2 criticals.
Earthbreaker: 18 regular hits, one x3 hit, and one miss = 21*10 or 210 points of damage across 20 swings.
Greatsword = 17 regular hits, two x2 hits, and one miss = 21*10 or 210points of damage across 20 swings.
Thus, they have the same exact damage per round.
I'm planning on an elf barbarian 7
17 (21), 16, 12 (16), 10, 12, 10
Power Attack
Furious Focus
Pushing Assault
Vital Strike
Raging Leaper
Auspicious Mark
Bestial Leaper
Smilodan, give me a second to run the numbers. - Gauss
I'm no mathematician, but I think the technical answer is that they both do the same amount of damage, but the one with the larger crit range does a greater amount (a crit) more often. So for any *particular* attack, they are identical, it is just that one causes criticals more often, which, statistically speaking, over time, means more damage than the one with the smaller range.
Right?
Kinda..
The greatsword starts out better but gets worse the more extra crit multiplicable damage (from strength, power attack, feats, class abilities, etc) gets added. The exact point where one is better than the other is subject to change based upon the target's AC, Damage Reduction, and accuracy modifiers, critical hit confirmation bonuses, etc. Typically this break point will assert itself in the +15 range though it can be lower or higher based on combat factors.
<snip> Additionally, to gain the benefit of the curve blade you either have to sacrifice 2 points of strength (being elven) OR burn a feat. The build above used the burn a feat option.
Another option is Half Elf. You can gain ECB proficiency without losing Strength or a feat. You would need to either choose a class proficient in martial weapons, or use the alternate racial trait to give you ECB proficiency.
Greatsword is less restrictive, and I expect enchanted Greatswords would be far more common than enchanted Elven Curve Blades.
To find the break point you take the damage formula for one weapon and set it equal to the damage formula for the other weapon.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 4
Assuming chance to hit is equal, that drops out.
Assuming equal amounts of precision damage (0), that drops out.
Solving for dx (offset damage that is multiplied) and simplifying...
((1+t1*c1)*d1-(1+t2*c2)*d2)/(t2*c2-t1*c1) = dx
1d10 (18-20/x2) vs 2d6 (19-20/x2)?
((1+[3/20]*[2])*[5.5]-(1+[2/20]*[2])*[7])/([2/20]*[2]-[3/20]*[2]) = dx
12.5 = dx
1d10 (15-20/x2) vs 2d6 (17-20/x2)?
((1+[6/20]*[2])*[5.5]-(1+[4/20]*[2])*[7])/([4/20]*[2]-[6/20]*[2]) = dx
5 = dx
Barbarian Elf with a starting strength of 17, maxing level advancement and equipment buys as above (minus dueling gloves). If you have any additional barbarian specific bonuses you want added let me know.
This is still assuming
Power Attack@1
Furious Focus@3
Pushing Assault@5
Vital Strike@7
Improved Critcal@9
Imp. Vital Strike@11
Devastating Strike @13
Gr. Vital Strike@17
None of your listed Rage Powers added to damage so I am not factoring them in. (Yes, Auspicious mark CAN affect accuracy which affects damage but it is a 1/rage effect not a consistent or even regular effect.)
Full attack results:
Greatsword wins by less than 1.5 points from levels 1-8
Curve Blade wins by less than 3 points from levels 9-13
Curve blade wins by less than 5 points from levels 14-19
Curve blade wins by 5.9 points at level 20.
Single attack (vital strike) results:
Greatsword by less than 1.5 for most levels.
Curve Blade by less than 1.5 for level 16 and 20.
Hope this helps. - Gauss
Edit: I realized I had an artifact of my fighter build at level 20. Namely the +1crit multiplier. Pulled out the curve blade is roughly equal at level 20 with vital strike and less of a boost when using full-attack.
<snip> Additionally, to gain the benefit of the curve blade you either have to sacrifice 2 points of strength (being elven) OR burn a feat. The build above used the burn a feat option.
Another option is Half Elf. You can gain ECB proficiency without losing Strength or a feat. You would need to either choose a class proficient in martial weapons, or use the alternate racial trait to give you ECB proficiency.
Greatsword is less restrictive, and I expect enchanted Greatswords would be far more common than enchanted Elven Curve Blades.
Good point, I forgot about H-Elf. Kinda have a blindspot there as for my purposes there are usually better choices. - Gauss
Target AC does not actually affect the comparison unless you have different attack bonuses (i.e. if you went with Keen on the ECB and +1 on the Great Sword).
I'm no mathematician, but I think the technical answer is that they both do the same amount of damage, but the one with the larger crit range does a greater amount (a crit) more often. So for any *particular* attack, they are identical, it is just that one causes criticals more often, which, statistically speaking, over time, means more damage than the one with the smaller range.
Right?
Kinda..
The greatsword starts out better but gets worse the more extra crit multiplicable damage (from strength, power attack, feats, class abilities, etc) gets added. The exact point where one is better than the other is subject to change based upon the target's AC, Damage Reduction, and accuracy modifiers, critical hit confirmation bonuses, etc. Typically this break point will assert itself in the +15 range though it can be lower or higher based on combat factors.
Asterclement, Im sorry but you are incorrect. In a comparison between the Earthbreaker and the Greatsword they have exactly identical DPRs. There is no break point that changes this. A 19-20/x2 weapon has an identical DPR to a 20/x3 weapon if they have the same average damage (which the greatword and earthbreaker do).
- Gauss
Target AC does not actually affect the comparison unless you have different attack bonuses (i.e. if you went with Keen on the ECB and +1 on the Great Sword).
This is true, but to compare DPRs using power attack, magic items, etc I have an excel table whereby I use the ACs listed in the Bestiary Table 1-1. I believe this is a common practice. - Gauss
There is a slight difference in that one does more damage at once which is less efficient in terms of overkilling your target but more efficient against damage reduction. More consistent damage is also generally better than less consistent damage because it is easier to plan around.
There is a slight difference in that one does more damage at once which is less efficient in terms of overkilling your target but more efficient against damage reduction. More consistent damage is also generally better than less consistent damage because it is easier to plan around.
Agreed, this is why I opt for Greatsword over Earthbreaker. - Gauss
Now i'm not sure if I should keep my earthbreaker for my sundering barbarian and just have him use his keen greatsword instead.
He carries both an earthbreaker and a greatsword? I'd sell one for profit and stick to the other for both damage and sundering. Ignoring any enchantments, an earthbreaker and a greatsword deal identical damage on a sunder since objects are immune to critical hits.
I personally like the earthbreaker for flavor and find the "wasted damage" argument of those who choose expanded threat over increased multiple crit weapons to be a bit overstated. At lower levels a high-Str power attacker usually drops things with normal hits and is technically wasting damage with criticals anyways, and at higher levels when you start facing creatures that can take large amounts of damage the marginal amount of "wasted" damage of a x3/x4 crit weapon is offset by the marginal number of times you drop an opponent with a huge crit 1 round faster than normal (preventing its actions from impacting your party) and better DR-penetration ability.
If you've already invested in enchanting the greatsword and only have a backup earthbreaker for sundering, however, stick with the greatsword. (As a sidenote, keen isn't the greatest enchantment if you are a sunder-heavy barbarian... furious would be my primary choice other than pure +X bonuses.)
I am a level 10 (8 Sword Saint, 2 Fighter) with +22dmg to my normal attack, and I have improved critical on my ECB. Now I'll assume I had gone great sword. Let's look at the average damage over 20 roles.
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Average damage of ECB [1d10 15-20/x2] (22+5.5)*26 = 715 in 20 rolls (35.75 DPR)
Average damage of GS [2d6 17-20/x2] (22+7)*24 = 696 in 20 rolls (34.8 DPR)
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As you can see, with high enough +dmg you can out DPS a great sword with an ECB. Earlier levels without improved crit / keen the great sword is better, but later the 10% extra crit chance will make up for the lower average damage. This gap will only widen with the more +dmg you get.
Now that I think about it, lets see if vital strike makes any difference.
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Average damage of ECB Vital Strike [1d10 15-20/x2] (22+11)*26 = 858 in 20 rolls (42.9 DPR)
Average damage of GS Vital Strike [2d6 17-20/x2] (22+14)*24 = 864 in 20 rolls (43.2 DPR)
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Now the GS is winning due to it's higher average rolls by about 0.3 damage a round.
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Average damage of ECB Vital Strike + Devastating Blow [1d10 15-20/x2] (24+11)*26 = 910 in 20 rolls (45.5 DPR)
Average damage of GS Vital Strike + Devastating Blow [2d6 17-20/x2] (24+14)*24 = 912 in 20 rolls (45.6 DPR)
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A simple addition of +2 base damage, the damage is nearly the same, with only a 0.1 difference in the damage per round. But wait! I'm a samurai! My challenge gives +8 to damage (as I have 2 fighter levels). MORE MATH!
***
Average damage of ECB Vital Strike + Devastating Blow + Challenge [1d10 15-20/x2] (32+11)*26 = 1118 in 20 rolls (55.9 DPR)
Average damage of GS Vital Strike + Devastating Blow + Challenge [2d6 17-20/x2] (32+14)*24 = 1104 in 20 rolls (55.2 DPR)
***
As you can see, it all depends on your +dmg. If it is high, you should try to go ECB, as you will get more damage out of if. If it is lower, you should go with the Great Sword as it gives higher damage through it's better hit-dice (especially if you plan to use vital strike).
There is one thing a ECB can do that a Great Sword can't, and that is be used with weapon finesse. This makes it a hands down better choice for dex-fighters.
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Are there any other feats that add a damage bonus that doubles on a crit?Power Attack
Devastating Strike (for vital strikers)
Double Slice (for two weapon fighters)I'm sure there's others but that's all I saw with a quick glance.
Also Arcane Strike. Which again raises the question of which class is wielding the GS/ECB and which feats do they qualify for.
I chose elf for a race because I want to use the +1 foot of speed bonus they can get for their favored class bonus of barbarian. My speed will be 45 at 5th level, 50 at 10th, 55 at 15th, and 60 at 20th. More with boots of springing and striding and/or haste.
And the Bestial Leaper rage power lets you make a standard action at anytime during a move action, so you can use Vital Strike as a quasi-Spring Attack (RAW!!!) while raging! :-D
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<snip> Additionally, to gain the benefit of the curve blade you either have to sacrifice 2 points of strength (being elven) OR burn a feat. The build above used the burn a feat option.
Another option is Half Elf. You can gain ECB proficiency without losing Strength or a feat. You would need to either choose a class proficient in martial weapons, or use the alternate racial trait to give you ECB proficiency.
Greatsword is less restrictive, and I expect enchanted Greatswords would be far more common than enchanted Elven Curve Blades.
Half-Elves do not automatically get elven proficiencies; you would have to use the alternate racial option.
I didn't read everything so if it already came up please ignore:
With a high threat range the killer trait that adds your krit multiplier to the krit damage becomes interesting. I't not much but better than nothing.
It would add +2 damage to every crit with the ECB (same with the greatsword but it doesn't krit as often)
I can't do math but I like GS better than ECB.
A- because I roll good on all d6s All day everyday
B- I don't have to be a elf or take a feat/trait
C- I don't crit often (I have a weapon with 15-20 crit and I always roll 14 it's like luck won't allow me to crit as often as I should)
D- I love the spell lead blades (I somehow feel that this is relevant)
Sorry for my useless ramblings.
How about a glaive ?
It's 20 (x3) instead of 18-20 (x2) so you lose on damage, but you win on reach.
Could someone do the math to compare Strength-based elven barbarian with regular elved curve blade against Dexterity-based elven Urban Barbarian with agile version with that weapon? I think that could be worthwhile option for SmiloDan.
Could someone do the math to compare Strength-based elven barbarian with regular elved curve blade against Dexterity-based elven Urban Barbarian with agile version with that weapon? I think that could be worthwhile option for SmiloDan.
Depends what kind of game he's playing. The agile property is 3.5, not PF.
If you're not using Finesse, you're paying a feat for +0.5 damage per hit (compared to the falchion). Totally not worth it. On the other hand, you get to NOT roll 2d4 all the time, and THAT is totally worth it.
Agile weapon is from Pathfinder Society Field Guide - which seems to be Pathfinder, not 3.5.
Agile weapon is from Pathfinder Society Field Guide - which seems to be Pathfinder, not 3.5.
Really ? I can't find the "agile" capacity on paizo.com, nor herolab, nor d20pfsrd. Is it good for PFS play then ?
Really ? I can't find the "agile" capacity on paizo.com, nor herolab, nor d20pfsrd. Is it good for PFS play then ?
www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons
First enchantment detailed in the alphabetical list of descriptions. And yes, the Field Guide's content is in PFS' list of additional resources.
...
OK. I think i'll just run and hide, then ;)
I also hate d4s SO MUCH!!!!!!!
I also hate d4s SO MUCH!!!!!!!
They make dodecahedron-shaped d4s... no more stepping on pointy dice and they roll so wonderfully. I actually like d4 rolling ever since I bought them. :)