Monsters in the party


Advice

Sovereign Court

Party of characters 6 PCs

1 player is (regardless of how he got there) CR 7 Legion Archon
appearing as is with one exception: he chose his skill ranks. All else is as the monster entry.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monsterlistings/outsiders/archon/archon-le gion

Now the other players
lvl 7: Human Cleric of Pharasma
lvl 7: Human Monk of the four winds
lvl 6 CR 1: Catfolk word caster Bard (fey creature template)
lvl 7: human Magus Blade bound
lvl 7: dwarven barbarian

how should the catfolk and the archon progress in levels

is the archon considered to be of an equal exp value to the rest of the party.

at what exp level is the archon able to take class levels by comparison to the party advancement

the rules while clear to some are however a slight bit confusing to me
can someone elaborate without using 3.5 terminology


Well, the issue here is that Pathfinder doesn't cover playing monsters with racial HD (monsters without racial HD will be/are covered in the Advanced Race Guide).

With nothing else to go on - try just having him be counted as a level 7 character, with the same xp as the rest of the party. If he is obviously overpowered or underpowered after a couple of sessions (not counting bad dice rolls), then you could try a different approach - if he's overpowered, you could count him as being higher level or use a slower experience track to advance him. If he's underpowered, discuss with the group giving him an extra level or two.

Sovereign Court

Thanis Kartaleon wrote:

Well, the issue here is that Pathfinder doesn't cover playing monsters with racial HD (monsters without racial HD will be/are covered in the Advanced Race Guide).

With nothing else to go on - try just having him be counted as a level 7 character, with the same xp as the rest of the party. If he is obviously overpowered or underpowered after a couple of sessions (not counting bad dice rolls), then you could try a different approach - if he's overpowered, you could count him as being higher level or use a slower experience track to advance him. If he's underpowered, discuss with the group giving him an extra level or two.

well they have rules, this is what i have to go on

Adding Class Levels

Of all the methods of advancing a monster, adding class levels requires the most adjudication and careful comparison. Some classes truly add to the power and abilities of some monster types, while others do not. For example, adding levels of barbarian to a hill giant can be a great addition, whereas adding levels of sorcerer is less useful. When adding class levels to a creature, take the following three steps.

Step 1: Determine Creature's Role

When adding class levels to a creature, the first step is to determine what role the base creature fulfills. There are three basic roles into which a creature might fall. A creature can fall into more than one role if its abilities are diverse.

Combat: This creature is designed to be good at melee or ranged combat with a weapon or its natural weapons. In either case, these monsters have a number of feats and abilities to enhance their combat prowess (or are good simply by nature of their Hit Dice and ability scores). If a creature does not possess many spells, special abilities, or skills, it is a combat monster.

Most animals, constructs, dragons, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, plants, and vermin fall into this role, as do some creatures of all the other types.

Spell: Spell creatures possess a large number of spells that allow them to attack or harass their enemies. These creatures usually have lower hit points and relatively weak attacks as compared to the averages for creatures of their CR. Note that creatures that only possess spell-like abilities do not fall into this role, and are usually considered combat or special.

Most dragons and outsiders fall into this role, but any creature that has a list of spells prepared or spells known likely falls under this heading as well.

Skill: Creatures of this type rely on skills (usually Stealth) to ambush or take down their prey. This also includes creatures who take advantage of the environment or spells, such as fog or invisibility.

Some aberrations, fey, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, and outsiders fall into this role.

Special: Creatures that do not fall into any of the other categories usually rely on special abilities and powers to attack their foes. They might be tough or dangerous in physical combat, but the threat is greatly increased by their special abilities.

See monster roles for determining key classes.

Step 2: Add Class Levels

Once you have determined the creature's role, it's time to add class levels. The first step of this process is to modify the creature's ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities. Creatures with NPC class levels do not receive adjustments to their ability scores.

FAQ

What creatures get max hit points for their first level or first Hit Die? What creatures get favored class bonuses to hit points or skills?

Creatures whose first Hit Die is from a PC-appropriate character class gain max hit points for that Hit Die. The current list of PC-appropriate character classes is alchemist, barbarian, bard, cavalier, cleric, druid, fighter, inquisitor, monk, oracle, paladin, ranger, rogue, sorcerer, summoner, witch, and wizard (including archetypes, subclasses, and other variants of these classes).

Creatures whose first Hit Die is from an NPC class (adept, aristocrat, commoner, expert, warrior) or from a racial Hit Die (such as most monsters) do not get maximum hit points for that Hit Die.

All creatures with class levels (including those with levels in an NPC class or monsters with class levels) may select a favored class and gain the normal favored class benefits. Creatures never gain favored class benefits for racial Hit Dice.

For example, a human warrior 1 could select "warrior" as his favored class and take either the bonus hit point or skill rank for taking a level in that class. A normal bugbear with 3 racial Hit Dice and no class levels has no favored class and no favored class bonuses, but if that bugbear gained a level in rogue, he could choose "rogue" as his favored class and take either the bonus hit point or skill rank for taking a level in that class.

(Source)

Next, add the class levels to the monster, making all of the necessary additions to its HD, hit points, BAB, CMB, CMD, feats, skills, spells, and class features. If the creature possesses class features (such as spellcasting or sneak attack) for the class that is being added, these abilities stack. This functions just like adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice.

A monster with class levels always possesses treasure equal to an NPC of a level equal to the monster's final CR (as calculated in Step 3, below). To determine the value of this gear, use the value listed for a heroic NPC of that level, as listed in Table NPC Gear. Once a total GP value is determined, follow the rules for outfitting an NPC as outlined in that section. Gear should help a monster with class levels remain challenging and retain statistics close to those presented on Table: Monster Statistics by CR.

Step 3: Determine CR

Determining the final CR for a creature with class levels requires careful consideration. While adding a class level to a monster that stacks with its existing abilities and role generally adds 1 to its CR for each level taken, adding classes that do not stack is more complicated.

Table: Monsters with Class Levels gives general guidelines regarding which core classes add directly to a monster's abilities based on its role (see Monsters by Role). Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature's CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature's CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key.


As someone who has played several monstrous PCs in PF and has, for the fun of it, built high CR encounters by leveling monsters, let me toss in my two cents:

First off, fey and some of the good aligned outsiders tend to be somewhat overpowered compared to other creatures of their CR. This is especially true when class levels are added. Template stacking compounds things further. The most disturbing creature I have ever built was an ostensibly CR20 Vampire Nymph with levels in zen archer monk. It had a flat-footed touch AC of 48, and could pass any saving throw a PC can generate on a 2 (with room to spare, actually); it could put out upwards of 600 point of damage per round (and damage output was presumably its weak point; its defenses were so strong it was incapable of killing itself).

Secondly, remember that a monster of a given CR is roughly on par with a PC of equivalent level - including that PC's equipment. Therefore, if you take that monster and give it level appropriate equipment, it will outstrip the PCs. This effect is less important when dealing with low CR monsters, but becomes vastly more pronounced the higher the CR of the base monster is (and, correspondingly, the greater the amount of equipment that monster obtains). I've played a Soulbound Doll PC from mid through high levels treating the CR 2 as a level adjustment without noticing a substantial difference in power level from a normal PC. In contrast, I've also added three levels of anti-paladin to a Winter Wight, given it level appropriate equipment, and then prayed to Iomedae for forgiveness for the horror I had just created.

Third, don't level a monster PC by adding hit dice; it both makes things harder to balance (it's difficult to tell exactly how many monstrous hit dice a given level is worth, and it varies for each species of monster) and removes the fun from the player. In the case of dragon PCs, I'd also recommend against leveling the dragon by advancing age categories - considering the in-game timescales of the average campaign, you will have created the fastest aging dragon in all of history.


Curvature wrote:
considering the in-game timescales of the average campaign, you will have created the fastest aging dragon in all of history.

On the other hand… twist ending as the great wyrm dragon PC dies of old age at the campaign's conclusion, warped by a genetic disorder that no one spoke about in front of the draconic PC out of politeness.


There's a few paragraphs in the back of the Besiary 1 about this. Basically count it as a pc of level = cr and only advance by class levels. IIRC, every third level it would gain another class level halfway to the next level, a number of time equal to half it's original cr.


The catfolk is a 1/2 CR race which means that he will be 7th level and will advance like everyone else.

Sovereign Court

actually catfolk has no cr, cause it says it advances via class levels, its a bestiary 2 or 3 race

Grand Lodge

Yeah but the catfolk has a template on them.

Sovereign Court

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/catfolk

where do you see a template on this catfolk.

the 1/2 cr listed isnt because of the creature having a cr either, its a 1st lvl ranger.

im trying to understand how the advancement rules work in the Bestiary 1, if the character is a legion archon, CR 7,8 HD and the rest of the party is 7th lvl
at what ratios should the legion archon go to the next level

i am not good with word based math problems if someone can give a diagram i met get what the book says

im not looking for advice on how to run it or suggestion on how to run it, i want to see the RAW information on how paizo intended it


Monsters as PCs.

Quote:
where do you see a template on this catfolk.

I missed that the catfolk PC has the fey creature template. In that case it's simply one level lower then the rest.


Page 313, Appendix 4: Monsters as PCs

If all you wanted was a page number, that's what you should have asked for. If you want advice and perspective from your fellow gamers, well, that would look more like what you posted above.

IMO, the rules in the back of the bestiary are not well balanced. They should not be considered RAW, but rather a loose suggestion.

Some guidelines I would suggest:

1: a monster PC can never cast a higher level spell than a normal PC of their level.

2: a monster PC can never have a higher BAB than a normal PC of their level. (mostly only an issue with full BAB monsters)

3: if you allow them to wear armor, consider lowering their base Natural Armor. If their AC is 10 over every other player, this will cause you issues. I'd say cut the bonus from the monster in 1/2.

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