"Grab" Monster Rules

[Vaniglio]

Hi guys,
can you help me to understand grab ability?

Grab (Ex)
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

Questions:

1) I grab an enemy as normal. Later (next turn) can i choose to take -20 to CMB?

2) Check to maintain the grapple with -20 to cmd <--What kind of action? Standard, free, move?

3) Can I attack other enemy in range when I grab with -20 CMB? Can i make full attack?

4) I fail a check to mantain with -20 to CMB, Can i grab again in same turn?

Ty all :)

[CraziFuzzy]

1) There's no wording on 'changing the grip' from full (mutual) grapple, to one sided holding.

2) Just as maintaining any grapple, normally a standard action (unless modified by feats)

3) Depends on limbs and action economy. If there's a single 'grabbing' appendage, I'd say no, the creature cannot attack another with that limb. If the creature has used it's standard action to maintain a grapple, It wouldn't be able to make any further attacks.

4) If maintaining the grapple (or failing to do so) is considered a standard action for the creature in question, then no, you wouldn't be able to make another attack/grab attempt.

[Vaniglio]

Thank you CraziFuzzy.
Well, so in a nutshell there is no way for a big bad guy to grab an enemy and then attack other people if my check to maintain grapple is a standard action.

[CraziFuzzy]

Doesn't appear to be. Greater Grapple will allow maintaining the grapple as a move action, and then it could be done. For instance, the Rorkoun has both a bite and a tail slap, each with Grab, and it also has Greater Grapple, so it could bite a creature, and grab it with it's mouth only (taking the -20 on it's check), and next round, can attempt to maintain it's bite hold as a move action and still attack with it's tail slap, even potentially grabbing victim number 2 with it. It has constrict, so it could still do decent damage with each grab, if it had a good enough CMB to be able to hold them with the -20.

[Matthew Downie]

Better to just let go as a free action, then attempt to grab them again.

[CraziFuzzy]

Matthew Downie wrote:

Better to just let go as a free action, then attempt to grab them again.

Which is the perfect example of why this is a flawed part of the mechanic. Really, maintaining a grapple should be an attack, not a standard action. This would allow a creature with grab to be able to continue his one-limbed hold without losing the use of his other limbs. This would allow multi-limbed behemoths to actually behave like multi-limbed behemoths.

[Claxon]

Yeah, we had a thread about how mechanically grab sucks but if used in an absurd method (grab, grapple, constrict, release, repeat with next attack with grab) then it becomes very effective.

Grab needs verbiage that allows a creature to apply constrict damage for each limb that allows grab, because the creature shouldn't have to grab and release 8 times (giant octopus) just to be a viable combatant.

[Taenia]

I don't think the Rorkoun would need to take the -20 penalty on its checks. It could grab a creature with its Bite, grab another with its tail and then, using Greater Grapple, maintain one as a move and the other as a standard.

If it grappled one target with its tail on round 1, on round 2 it could maintain the grapple as a move action (Greater Grapple) to drag the creature towards another (an option of maintaining Grapple) then bite another creature potentially grabbing it. On round 3 it could then maintain on both.

The -20 is primarily to prevent the grabber from getting the grappled condition. This means they can still move normally and don't have the penalties associated with grapple.

[CraziFuzzy]

I believe the whole point of the -20 is to limit the activity of the grapple to only utilizing the individual limb, so the grappler doesn't gain the grappled condition. Otherwise, after the first grapple triggered by the bite attack, the entire Rorkoun is considered grappled, which affects whether it can effectively do anything with the tail or not. Can a grappled creature attack with two limbs? How does a full-attack with multiple natural weapons wash out with the 'can take no action that requires two hands to perform'?