I enjoy designing characters and actually do most of the character building for my group. We're currently running a party of four made up almost entirely from builds I've discussed on here so in essence you are all my co-creators... the players love the characters I design for them to the point that when they level up they turn to me excitedly and say 'okay, now what do I get'? We tend to be mostly role-players and character themes are discussed and agreed upon long before play begins, but they like having relatively optimal characters without having to put in the work to develop them. Me, I'm just a geek.
But now we're adding a fifth character. We already have a wide array of effective damage dealers and I've decided after talking with our new member that a Bard might be the best fit, the ideal 'fifth member' to round out the group. The thing is, everything I've read have said that Bards don't multi-class well and to me it seems almost the opposite. After 7th level, my interest in the Bard begins to wane considerably... only I'm not certain which direction to go.
Here was the inital plan - by the time the character reaches 7th level, pretty much every combat would go as follows:
Round 1: Begin Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage (+2 attack/+2 damage) as a move action, cast Haste as a Standard action.
Round 2: Dazzling Display as a full round action if nothing else is immediately pressing.
Round 3: ???
The idea is to stack the generic buffs with the generic debuff of demoralizing a foe so that everyone else can do what they do best a little better... but then what? One thought would be to continue through combat as a dedicated healer since the party is a little light in that department. Another is for him to go pure control, trying to lock down individual threats one at a time with spells like Charm, Dominate, Hold, Hideous Laughter, etc.
Now the character is probably going to pour everything attribute-wise in Charisma, which has us looking at either a Paladin or a Sorcerer to best serve the two options mentioned.
He likes Paladin because he'll get a huge benefit from Divine Grace and should get a potent Smite as well for those occaisional combats against the BBEG when he can help pour it on. Between Channelling and Lay on Hands he'll be able to act as a fairly versatile if not potent healer and its expected that he'll use a bow.
For the other options, we initally looked at Wizard for the Enchantment school, but a lot of their class features seem to be based on 'Wizard level', and it makes him have to split his focus to include Intelligence as well as Charisma. Sorcerer seemed better suited but none of the bloodlines jumped out as perfectly suited to a controller type, but he'd probably focus on enchantment and illusion spells.
So the main question is to fulfill either of these rolls is he better off actually sticking to it as a Bard the entire way? Or perhaps to 11th or 13th instead of 7th? I have to admit that a lot of the later class features seem a touch underwhelming... or would someone reccoend one of the two options mentioned above, or something else entirely.
The races we're considering are Halfling, Human and Half-Elf. The rest of the party is a Half-Orc Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple, a Halfling Master Summoner with his eidolon tricked out as a pocket rogue, an Elven Sorcerer/Wizard (Cross-blooded splash, Admixture Evocationist) and a Human Eldritch Archer.
Also, a quick question - is a Bardic Performance stopped by casting a spell? Would the verbal or somatic components interfere with the Performance's audible or visual aspects?
NO!
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Also, a quick question - is a Bardic Performance stopped by casting a spell? Would the verbal or somatic components interfere with the Performance's audible or visual aspects?
Casting a spell does not stop it. Here is the wording from Bardic Performance about what can stop it:
"A bardic performance cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the bard is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round. A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time."
I wouldn't agree that the Bard wanes after level 7. Inspire Courage and Competence are still increasing, as is your repertoire of spells. Dirge of Doom is a great way to lower enemy saves quickly, especially when you can pull it off as a swift action. Some of the other abilities are a bit situational or underwhelming, but there is enough going on that my first recommendation would be to stick it out.
If that doesn't interest you, a few levels of Paladin would be a good choice for a more combat-oriented bard. Great saves, smites, synergy with Charisma... nothing wrong here. I'd personally go for an archery type, as it is something your bard can be quite good at even before switching, and is just gross when combined with Smite.
Switching over to Wizard is a pretty terribly choice. Besides (as you mentioned) adding another stat to focus on, you will be an awful caster. Lower level spells than an equivalent Bard, much lower caster level, none of the nice bard early-entry spells... I mean, I'm not going to tell you "bad-wrong-fun" or anything, but this is a very, very weak option.
Sorcerer is the same as a wizard. Your spells will be slightly more terrible, but at least you get a bloodline arcana and use your same casting stat. I still wouldn't take it over straight Bard, though. At most, do a one level dip into Crossblooded for a couple of Arcana. Infernal/Fey would get your Enchantment DCs up quite a bit, while others (such as Undead) are going to increase your range of targets. Depending on your choices, a dip might even be optimal.
In summary: Bard is close to Paladin/Bard which is around the same as Crossblooded Sorcerer 1/Bard which is ridiculously, insanely better than anything involving multiple levels of another casting class.
EDIT: Also, Human or Half-Elf for a Paladin/Bard (Human for Archer Paladin/Bard, you will need the feat), Gnome with Magical Linguist for a casty Bard (you will want the +DC). Although a Halfling with Jinxing options could be an interesting choice, too.
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I would skip any multi-class idea involving a wizard or sorc and go with the Magician archetype myself. As for straight Bard you can always pump up the UMD skill and buy wands and scrolls to supplement the spell list. Bard spell list has plenty of control spells though. Don't forget the whip either. Being able to perform combat maneuvers from 15ft away is pretty sweet.
Pally looks like it can mix with Bard just fine. Dont dump the strength though.
I had a thought that if you go the very popular archer Bard route maybe Arcane Archer would be a good mix? I can't say for certain I have never made an AA though some day id like too. I just cant speak to its effectiveness.
It all depends what you're looking for. My first recommendation is to avoid the sorcerer multiclass -- your caster levels don't stack, and you'll forever be a bard with access to L3 spells and, assuming you make 20 levels, a sorcerer never getting pat L6 spells.
If this is a new character, you should look over the bardic archetypes, a lot of them (Arcane Duelist, Dervish Dancer, etc.) get you out of the "normal" bardic mindset in fun ways that are useful in combat.
Now, if you're willing to give up the later increases to Inspire Courage and Competence (which go above +2/+2) and the 13th level ability to start a performance as a swift action, there are some options to consider.
The only bard "multiclass" PrC is the Battle Herald, which mixes with Cavalier -- which gives you more party buffs and the ability to rock in combat (at least somewhat), but with the party composition, I'm not necessarily sure that's the best plan - especially if the player feels that "Oh, whee, I buff the party" is a boring playstyle. (Still, worth looking at).
Beyond that, however, bards can step directly into a few other PrCs which might be worth looking at:
- Shadowdancer The bard plays up the stealthy-skillmonkey aspect, becomes a finesse fighter with rogue talents and mastery over shadow.
- Master Spy Another "down the sneaky" way -- grants the bard sneak attack and makes them very hard to detect, boosts Charisma skills (well, those related to deceit, anyway)
- Arcane Archer Pretty common, makes the bard a buffer and strong range-combattant (but you say you already have an archer)
- Dragon Disciple Only requires spontaneous arcane casting, not a Sorcerer Bloodline, to access, so a Bard could do so and gain physical might -- but then, your party already has one.
- Duelist Again, building up the finesse-fighter aspect -- however, I tend to find that the Duelist is a little weak as a PrC.
- Stalwart Defender It's unexpected, but possible - you just need to pick up Medium Armour Proficiency -- and then your bard can "hold the line" and become a rather powerful combatant.
Finally, if the character is looking toward being more of a battlefield healer as a secondary role, then with the high charisma, it might be worth looking at Oracle -- especially since your party seems to completely lack a primary divine caster -- and, unlike sorcerer, doesn't kill your their hit die or combat abilities.
I have always had a dislike for bardic performance, just not my cup of tea.
Depending on what you want the 5th character to do, you may want to look at the archeologist bard archtype. It replaces bardic performance with a luck bonus only for the bard. I like the template for the whip applications - disarming, tripping, repositioning from up to 15' away.
I would agree with Mistwalker, if you're looking for battle field control, a Bard with a whip and net is a pretty strong choice. There's a Bard guide that spells it out, but I can't remember who wrote it (might even be Trentmonk's).
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If you're feeling underwhelmed by the bard, you might want to consider the Pathfinder Chronicler prestige class.
Now, before I get shot in the head by all the bard lovers, I'm a bard lover, too. This is simply a suggestion that allows a character to do something different with a bard.
Now, you do lose spellcasting progression, which is rough, but you'll probably be sticking to up to 3rd levels spells for buffs, etc. anyways. If you want to focus on improving allies, you can always focus on using the Aid Another action, working as a moveable buffing platform. The largest benefit comes at Pathfinder Chronicler 6 and 9, where you can use a single round of performance to grant an ally an extra move action, and later an extra standard action. As this is a use of bardic music, but isn't an actual PERFORMANCE, it can be done as a swift action once your effective bardic music level reaches 11 (13th level total), allowing you to maintain whichever performance you're using, move into position, grant an ally a +4 bonus to their next attack roll (probably +6 if you move into a flanking position, or +8 if you have a menacing weapon), and allow them to attack as a swift action. Even better, if you manage to mix in the Outflank feat amongst your group members and take Combat Reflexes, you can allow ally crits to grant you attacks, or grant each other attacks.
At this point, I would either continue with bard, OR go Cavalier 1/Battle Herald 6 to get some more utility abilities as far as performance is concerned.
Again, the above options aren't exactly OPTIMAL, but they're definitely viable, and potentially enjoyable.
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The idea is to stack the generic buffs with the generic debuff of demoralizing a foe so that everyone else can do what they do best a little better... but then what? One thought would be to continue through combat as a dedicated healer since the party is a little light in that department. Another is for him to go pure control, trying to lock down individual threats one at a time with spells like Charm, Dominate, Hold, Hideous Laughter, etc.
Now the character is probably going to pour everything attribute-wise in Charisma,
This is a good thought, and potentially very effective. And, like any other dedicated spellcaster (because that's what this build is), should not ever multiclass. High-level Bards get all the same things high level Wizard or Clerics do: More and better spells. The fact that they capout at 6th level doesn't change this, or necessarily make it a lot less effective (though the lower number of spells can be an obstacle). Their high level Performances can also be quite cool, and there are spells to stack them on top of Inspire courage, if you wish. And they keep stacking up Bardic Knowledge bonuses and Versatile Performances, as wel as improving their other skill-based tricks.
Now, due to the lower number of spells per day, you should also have something to do on turns where he's not casting (which will certainly happen). In this particular case, Dazzling Display will probably serve that function sufficiently, but you still might want to think about other things to do (making the character a decent combatant is very doable, and not a bad idea).
In terms of the intial buffing, you also might want to consider getting someone else to cast Haste, and doing Good Hope yourself, since many people have Haste but Good Hope is both awesome and unique to Bards.
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My list of things any bard should be able to do.
1 : Win friends and influence people. They make one of the best party face characters. They have the combination of skills and skill points to do this better then any other class.
2 : Do well in combat. They must be able to help in combat in some why. Other then bardic performance. Melee or range take your pick.
3 : Have a plan to cover any position in the party that you can. Healer, Arcane Caster, Melee, Range, Skill Monkey.
For the fun of it to and another twist on the Archer Bard. A dip into Gunslinger of the Mysterious Stranger Archetype can be fun. Your Grit is based off of your Charisma Modifier, and for the cost of a grip point, you can add your Charisma Modifier to damage for Gun attacks.
There's a large wealth of info in this thread
I'm playing my bard like he's Link from LoZ. He's a melee bard with a sword and shield. With Arcane Strike, I'm able to do some decent damage when I'm not casting. And I am fairly defensive. I play this character like a skirmisher and so far I've done really well.
HERETIC!!! Though I do agree with the whip stuff.I have always had a dislike for bardic performance, just not my cup of tea.
Well, being tone deaf and lacking a sense of rythme may have something to do with it.
Hmm, how can I be a heretic if I never subscribed?
:)
It is legitimately easy to put together the bard in a way that will cause diappointment with its performance. Here's some pitfalls I see sometimes, particularly with LSM players -
- Building the bard like a full spellcaster. Okay, so the bard does have spells, and some of those are offensive spells, and some of those offensive spells are pretty good control elements. But until the bard is a pretty high level, you don't have NEARLY the spells/day required to make casting your normal combat action, and later on when you do, you're going to be lagging behind a real spellcaster. Bards have a lot of great spells and spellcasting should be part of their strategy, but they are not full spellcasters and are disappointing in that role.
- Assuming that because bards are a class (in fact THE class, far, far above any other) that excels at skills, they should invest deeper into that. It makes sense, doesn't it? A fighter is good at hitting things with a sword, so the fighter makes his Str high and takes feats that make him even better at hitting things with a sword. A bard is good at social skills, so shouldn't he pump Int and Cha super high and take feats that make him even better at skills? No, he should not. There's a variety of reasons that that's a bad idea (including the competitive advantage different character resources have at making you better at different things), but the one that's most relevant for bards is that additional skill points have diminishing returns, and bards get effectively like a bzillion skill points per level already. Note that I'm NOT saying that being awesome at skills isn't important or that someone shouldn't want to be awesome at skills, just that spending stat points and feats on making yourself awesome at skills is a (typically) inefficient use of character resources.
The bard is balanced around being built more like how people normally think of the inquisitor - a fairly combat-capable class that augments itself to fully combat-capable through class abilities and spells. The bard is just a notch to the side of the inquisitor; its buffs are less efficient (in terms of actions to activate), but it has more positive externalities than the inquisitor (whose main class ability buffs - Bane and Judgement - are personal). I know players who would raise an eyebrow if you announced that you were making an inquisitor who just stood around casting buff spells, or was going to be made like a primary caster, or who was planning on largely forgoing combat utility in order to be good at skills, but who at the same time assume that those are fine default things to do with the very similar bard class.
Note that I'm NOT saying that it's wrong if someone wants to make a bard that dedicates their character options to being "amazing" at spellcasting or being, uh, somehow even more betterer at skills than every other class in the game, just that they should know that they're building to a substandard end and shouldn't be surprised if their character appears to be underperforming. I'm also not saying that it's IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE TO EVER HAVE ANY FUN if that's what they do. It's just that for some reason people seem to intuit that building to a substandard end is what they're doing when they do one of those things with an inquisitor, but gleefully march towards them on a bard chassis.
Bardic Performance DOES NOT have to be all about singing and dancing. My PFS tells stories when he uses BP. If the combat is taking too long though, he will break out the bagpipes.HERETIC!!! Though I do agree with the whip stuff.I have always had a dislike for bardic performance, just not my cup of tea.
Well, being tone deaf and lacking a sense of rythme may have something to do with it.
Hmm, how can I be a heretic if I never subscribed?
:)
Indeed. Mine uses scathing insults and sarcasm against the enemy for Oratory and insult comedy for Comedy.
Did the same -- Perform (Comedy) and (Oratory) to wise-crack at the baddies. Was fun.
Mine uses Perform(Smash in face). The perform skill is just a formality, really.
I'm just finishing my CoT AP with my group where I'm running a bard ala Codename V from V for Vendetta. It the most effective character in combat and out of combat I've ever played. With my damage dealers I was always the source of the party damage, with my bard I help make the other three guys into massive damage dealers and it's not even a question.
When I am performing I am doing the alliteration style of speaking (oratory) that V gives Eve in the alley. It's pretty awesome when the miniatures were being put out and my buddy (who handles all our minis) pulls out a custom V with Guy Fawkes mask and all. Power attacking with my heirloom bastard sword I'm getting a couple of hits in on par with any single hit the other guys are dishing (except the knife master rogue who was hovering about 20% higher on a single swing with his main hand weapon).
Where things really shine are in utility though. I open up with one of the two setups:
1) Rod of quickened spell from a glove of storing to drop a quickened Haste, followed by a casting of Good Hope and firing up my grand master performance feat augmented performance for a +2 higher bonus than usual (+4 right now).
2) Tell another caster to hold initiative for my count (move if needed) Dirge of Doom (-2 to saves) => cast Crushing Despair (further -2 to failed saves) or slow => Harmonic spell to change to Inspire Courage for free.
There's just so many ways to be effective, the least of which is my not inconsiderable melee skills. Silent image still works fine too.
If I made another one I'd probably explore the idea of Dirge of Doom + Shatter defenses either taken by the party or me.
Alright, considering that the rest of the party are all excellent damage dealers in their own right, I've decided on focusing on doing the things that nobody else can't. Part of that is playing the role of 'face' obviously, part of it is as a buffer which will for the most part be accomplished by Bardic Performance and the odd spell (like the suggested Good Hope), part of it is as a healer which we lack - though I see that more playing itself out as occurring between combat more than during... but I think the main role I'm going to fulfill is as an enchanter-type, focusing on locking down odd or otherwise difficult threats and taking control of foes when possible, whether its for the swing in combat, use as a guide or for intelligence-gathering or whatever. Its a unique ability that's sorely lacking in our 'Power 4'.
I've yet to decide on a race between Half-Elf, Halfling and Human, but I do know that I plan on making both Wisdom and Strength low and really pouring everything into Charisma. The character though will start off as a 1st level Cross-blooded Sorcerer (Fey-Infernal) to get those DC modifiers - which has me considering Half-Elf most strongly for RP purposes - then he will go Bard for 7 levels after which he'll take 2 levels of Paladin... those high save bonuses are almost too much to pass up. Finally, he'll go Bard the rest of the way which most likely means:
Half-Elven 1st level Sorcerer (Crossblooded Fey-Infernal) / 17th level Bard / 2nd level Paladin
I'm going back and forth on the Paladin thing as I have some concerns about the 'morality' of some of the instances I'll be tempted to use Charm and Dominate, etc. but it might make for some interesting role-play.
I have a lot of questions, but at the moment the most significant one is which archetype I should consider, if any. Traits are another thing (we get two) but at the moment I'm leaning towards Reactionary and Magical Knack.
Proposed Attributes:
(25 point buy, racial modifiers not included)
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 18
Apart from the obvious, are their any Feats that you think should be strongly considered for this build, perhaps something a little outside the box? I'm really not planning on having this character engage in any combat whatsoever and will for the most part be relying on my compatriots to protect me from physical harm. I was toying with doing what I needed to do to get Snake Style, but I'm not sure how it would interact with Versatile Performance.
Any thoughts are welcomed.
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I mixed a bard with rogue for some pretty scary effects...spend the first few rounds doing the bard buff/debuff/cast stuff, especially at 7th level...but with even 3 levels of rogue, by level 10 all the attacks were hitting pretty decent.
I used a long spear, the 5 foot step, and lunge feat for a very nice hit range, d8+ STR +2d6 (sneak attack)+ 3 arcane strike +2 or 3 Inspire made for some very surprising results from a bard. Let alone the fact that I was usually 15+ feet away from the guy I just ripped into.
Don't forget the skills synergize nearly flawlessly, plus you still get your versatile performance skills.
Overall, this was a very and surprisingly effective multiclass.
Plus, he was an absolute blast to play.
As for flavor, I had a friend play a kind of suggestively grinding pole dancing bard, using the long spear. Inspire Courage? Slam the spear into the ground, and begin gyrating. It certainly inspired the rest of the party to kill the monsters faster...primarily because we wanted him to STOP DOING THAT RIGHT THE HECK NOW!!!!
I have made bards more often than not as long as I can remember. It seems like a class that is either loved or hated depending on the player.
My suggestion would be to rock the class as it's core and give it to someone who can handle the diplomacy and strong roleplaying aspects of the class.
Combat wise... well a rapier in the eye doesn't feel great. Called shots and tactically taunts.
A bard has the charisma and abilities to make a monster hate him and chase him. Drawing attention away from the heavy hitters and giving them even more bonuses than the buffs.
But sometimes, you hide behind the bar drinking and flirting with the waitress until you find something flammable.
Lastly, if the party in question does a lot of plans that are more than "hit it until it stops moving" the class shines quite a bit.
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Half-Elven 1st level Sorcerer (Crossblooded Fey-Infernal) / 17th level Bard / 2nd level Paladin
I'm going back and forth on the Paladin thing as I have some concerns about the 'morality' of some of the instances I'll be tempted to use Charm and Dominate, etc. but it might make for some interesting role-play.
I have a lot of questions, but at the moment the most significant one is which archetype I should consider, if any. Traits are another thing (we get two) but at the moment I'm leaning towards Reactionary and Magical Knack.
Proposed Attributes:
(25 point buy, racial modifiers not included)STR 8
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 18Apart from the obvious, are their any Feats that you think should be strongly considered for this build, perhaps something a little outside the box? I'm really not planning on having this character engage in any combat whatsoever and will for the most part be relying on my compatriots to protect me from physical harm. I was toying with doing what I needed to do to get Snake Style, but I'm not sure how it would interact with Versatile Performance.
Any thoughts are welcomed.
My list of things any bard should be able to do.
1 : Win friends and influence people. They make one of the best party face characters. They have the combination of skills and skill points to do this better then any other class.Your build dose this well. But not better then any other bard.
2 : Do well in combat. They must be able to help in combat in some why. Other then bardic performance. Melee or range take your pick.
Your build dose not add to combat. As they are using spell casting to do something other then performance. You do not have the spell selection or the spells per day to make this the focus of a bard.
3 : Have a plan to cover any position in the party that you can. Healer, Arcane Caster, Melee, Range, Skill Monkey.
You can cover healer, You can cover Arcane Caster, Melee ? , Range ? , and only good at skills.
On a side note there is hardly ever a good enough reason to multiclass a bard. If you do multiclass a bard it had better make it worth it. The sorcerer dip could be replaced by taking spell focus and greater spell focus enchantment. With out costing you spells known, spells per day, and rounds of performance. When your focusing on casting this is not a good trade off. The paladin dip other then divine grace, and martial weapons. So you will have a little higher saves then a normal bard at the cost of spells known, spells per day, rounds of performance. Starting level one as a sorcerer puts you back to level 8 for getting haste, Dipping levels of paladin in there puts you back to level 10. I do not see the up side for multiclassing.
2 : Do well in combat. They must be able to help in combat in some why. Other then bardic performance. Melee or range take your pick.Your build dose not add to combat. As they are using spell casting to do something other then performance. You do not have the spell selection or the spells per day to make this the focus of a bard.
3 : Have a plan to cover any position in the party that you can. Healer, Arcane Caster, Melee, Range, Skill Monkey.
You can cover healer, You can cover Arcane Caster, Melee ? , Range ? , and only good at skills.
On a side note there is hardly ever a good enough reason to multi-class a bard. If you do multi-class a bard it had better make it worth it. The sorcerer dip could be replaced by taking spell focus and greater spell focus enchantment. With out costing you spells known, spells per day, and rounds of performance. When your focusing on casting this is not a good trade off. The paladin dip other then divine grace, and martial weapons. So you will have a little higher saves then a normal bard at the cost of spells known, spells per day, rounds of performance. Starting level one as a sorcerer puts you back to level 8 for getting haste, Dipping levels of paladin in there puts you back to level 10. I do not see the up side for multi-classing.
If you look at the party composition, it is very heavy on damage. World class damage and optimized to do so. The purpose of this character was to be able to fill in the gaps of what they didn't do so well, namely utility spells and the ability to lock down foes otherwise not easily engaged. Its actually a luxury not having to worry about combat and being able to focus on other things - and consequently do them even better.
Case in point - I'm already planning on taking Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus on top of the Sorcerer Dip. And Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration. And Magical Knack. When I charm/dominate/hold someone, I want it to stick. The two level dip won't result in 'a little higher saves', it should result in massively higher saves - like +6 to all by level 12 not counting equipment. I like the idea of being tough to take down at range and high saves is a big part of that. My spells known and spells per day will indeed take a hit - and I'm not 100% sure yet if that's acceptable, but we tend to have 3 - 5 encounters at most between extended rests... by my calculations I should have plenty of spells to handle frequency of combat, and if not all it takes is a wand to fill in the gaps. Don't worry though, I'll still get Haste at 8th level - the Paladin levels are at 9th and 10th - but I'm not sure I'll be in a huge rush anyway, as our Master Summoner will get access to it at 4th level and such things unfortunately don't stack. By 6th level or so I doubt if I'll ever run out of Bardic Performance rounds.
This is what I'm currently kicking around as my feat selections:
1st - Skill Focus: Performance
1st - Spell Focus: Enchantment
3rd - Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
5th - Improved Unarmed Strike
7th - Snake Style
9th - Craft Wand
11th - Spell Penetration
13th - Greater Spell Penetration
15th - Scribe Scroll
17th - Quicken Spell
19th - Improved Initiative
None of that is carved in stone, but I took Snake style with my Zen Archer a while back, and coupled with those high saves, it will really up the survivability of this character. Might have to wedge in another Skill Focus: Performance in there somewhere.
Any suggestions for Archetypes? Its a female character, so I'm seriously considering Geisha at the moment. It seems to suit her spell-casting leanings over combat and grants Scribe Scroll as well.
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If you look at the party composition, it is very heavy on damage. World class damage and optimized to do so. The purpose of this character was to be able to fill in the gaps of what they didn't do so well, namely utility spells and the ability to lock down foes otherwise not easily engaged. Its actually a luxury not having to worry about combat and being able to focus on other things - and consequently do them even better.
For any type of utility spell and locking down enemy's. The sorcerer dose allot better job of it then bard. The bard dose not function to the classes full ability when you want it for one type of role. The bard functions best when it covers many roles at the same time.
If you look at the party composition, it is very heavy on damage. World class damage and optimized to do so. The purpose of this character was to be able to fill in the gaps of what they didn't do so well, namely utility spells and the ability to lock down foes otherwise not easily engaged. Its actually a luxury not having to worry about combat and being able to focus on other things - and consequently do them even better.For any type of utility spell and locking down enemy's. The sorcerer dose allot better job of it then bard. The bard dose not function to the classes full ability when you want it for one type of role. The bard functions best when it covers many roles at the same time.
Such as serving as the group's 'face man', as a healer, as a buffer and as a controller... all of which is what this character is designed to do. With four big-time damage dealers already on the team, the one thing this character doesn't do is deal damage which consequently allows me to do everything else better, no?
Alright, I've got it.
I'm dropping the Sorcerer dip and going with a Human Bard (Geisha) with a 2 level dip into Paladin at levels 8 and 9. I've been talking to the player and we have a great back-story for her all in place. As for concept, think Inara Serra from Firefly.
Human Bard (Geisha) 18 / Paladin 2
Attributes:
STR - 8
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 10
WIS - 10
CHA - 18 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20)
Feats:
1st Scribe Scroll
1st Skill Focus: Perform (Sing)
1st Improved Unarmed Strike
3rd Snake Style
5th Spell Focus: Enchantment
7th Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
9th Craft Wand
11th Spell Penetration
13th Greater Spell Penetration
15th Improved Initiative
17th Quicken Spell
19th ???
For that last feat slot I'm really in a quandary. I was kicking around Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist or Belier's Bite to add a little oomph to her rare unarmed strike, but to tell the truth if I was going to take any of those it should be much, much earlier. Maybe I'll swap one of them in for Craft Wands at 9th, but that still leaves my level 19 feat undecided. Any suggestions here would be much appreciated.
For what its worth, Snake Style will give me a very high AC, including touch AC, against 1 attack per round - d20+20 at 6th, d20+32 at 12th, d20+45 at 20th, and that's not including any Charisma bump from magic items... remember that the Geisha adds half her level to one Perform skill which in this case will be Sing to replace Sense Motive via Versatile Performance. The character will likely do all she can to stay out of melee, so its unlikely that she will often have more than one ranged attack coming her way with all of the bigger threats running around the battlefield. Snake style combined with her ridiculously high saves should make her pretty hard to lock down for opponents.
Regarding her spell list, I'm more or less insuring that at every level of spells she knows 1 healing spell, at least 1 charm/enchantment spell and at least 1 buffing spell. At this point she looks like the perfect compliment to the rest of the party's bruisers.
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For that last feat slot I'm really in a quandary. I was kicking around Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist or Belier's Bite to add a little oomph to her rare unarmed strike, but to tell the truth if I was going to take any of those it should be much, much earlier. Maybe I'll swap one of them in for Craft Wands at 9th, but that still leaves my level 19 feat undecided. Any suggestions here would be much appreciated.
Hmmm. Maybe another Skill Focus? Another +6 to some Perform skill (granting it effectively to two skills) or to diplomacy might be worthwhile.
And I'd work on AC a bit even aside from the Snake Style. Ceremonial Silk Armor seems tailor made (pun intended) for this character.
I realize you've got your character figured out, but just as a note of commentary:
Round 1: Begin Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage (+2 attack/+2 damage) as a move action, cast Haste as a Standard action.Round 2: Dazzling Display as a full round action if nothing else is immediately pressing.
Round 3: ???
Things that Bards can do on Round 3 (and Round 2, for that matter, because by gods Dazzling Display is but one of many and only for certain builds):
- Cast any number of buff spells on self or party, such as heroism , rage, or blur or mirror image or etc.etc.etc.etc.- Cast any debuff/attack spells, such as grease or glitterdust or sound burst or etc.etc.etc.etc.
- Attack something. Bards have 3/4 BAB and especially with Inspire Courage going, or all kinds of buff spells, are just fine in melee. They shouldn't be looked at as primary damage dealers, but will make fine flanking buddies and solidly contribute to physical combat.
- Activate a magic item with Use Magic Device
- Identify a monster's weaknesses with Bardic Knowledge
Not to mention, if you're seeing a Bard taking the Dazzling Display feat, then they'd take the Shatter Defenses feat while they're at it... and then there's another good reason to level as a bard--Dirge of Doom, which renders targets Shaken as well--as a move action, meaning you can attack the targets the same turn while they're flat-footed.
Play whatever you like by all means but I was a bit at a loss that anyone would be at a loss as to what a bard could do with her turns in combat. At any rate, have fun!
Play whatever you like by all means but I was a bit at a loss that anyone would be at a loss as to what a bard could do with her turns in combat. At any rate, have fun!
The question marks weren't intended to signify confusion as much as to suggest the many options available - as in 'who knows what I might do?'.
I've moved away from the Dazzling Display idea for the character, but you do bring up some very good points.
For that last feat slot I'm really in a quandary. I was kicking around Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist or Belier's Bite to add a little oomph to her rare unarmed strike, but to tell the truth if I was going to take any of those it should be much, much earlier. Maybe I'll swap one of them in for Craft Wands at 9th, but that still leaves my level 19 feat undecided. Any suggestions here would be much appreciated.Hmmm. Maybe another Skill Focus? Another +6 to some Perform skill (granting it effectively to two skills) or to diplomacy might be worthwhile.
And I'd work on AC a bit even aside from the Snake Style. Ceremonial Silk Armor seems tailor made (pun intended) for this character.
I was kind of kicking another Skill Focus around too - who knows if we even make it to that level, but I don't like leaving builds unfinished.
I had intended to work the Bracers of Armor angle for AC, in fact as much of the character's magic items as possible would take the form of jewelry... but I rather like the idea of her having special 'silk armors' set aside and catalogued to make use of the variety of armor special abilities when she was in a position to prepare ahead of time.
I think you're spreading yourself a little thin with multiclassing. Have you looked at the different PrCs for some inspiration instead? Instead of having a million low level spells you'll have some different abilities that carry on spell progression mayhaps? I'd suggest some, but it really depends on what you're after.
The master spy seems like it'd fill a utility role pretty well, depending on how roguish you want to be. Or loremaster. PrCs tend to augment your existing abilities, while all but careful multiclassing tends to do it to the detriment of your existing abilities.
I think you're spreading yourself a little thin with multiclassing. Have you looked at the different PrCs for some inspiration instead? Instead of having a million low level spells you'll have some different abilities that carry on spell progression mayhaps? I'd suggest some, but it really depends on what you're after.
The master spy seems like it'd fill a utility role pretty well, depending on how roguish you want to be. Or loremaster. PrCs tend to augment your existing abilities, while all but careful multiclassing tends to do it to the detriment of your existing abilities.
In the final character build, she is only dipping 2 levels for Paladin and she's not doing that until after 7th level. Between Magical Knack and the favored-class option for Human Bards to add to their spell list, I don't think I'll be gimping myself too much in return for some minor heals and a huge boost in saves.
Well, if you are looking for an extra feet, I would check out lingering performance. The effects of your performance continues for two rounds after you stop. If you get knocked down, your allies still benefit to end the fight faster. It also makes the use of some of the Finale line of spells a bard even more useful. (Saving Finale, a fist level bard spell is pretty sweet. As an immediate action, you can end a performance to grant an ally another saving throw after they fail. If you have lingering performance, you don't have to waste an action right away to get your performance back up.)
Discordant voice can be fun. Basically any ally under the effect of a bardic performance and within 30 ft of you gets to add +1d6 of sonic damage onto physical attacks.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/discordant-voice
I don't like it (but I don't really like bards), but I've seen several recommend pal 2 / bard ~10 / dragon disciple ~8
Well, if you are looking for an extra feet, I would check out lingering performance. The effects of your performance continues for two rounds after you stop. If you get knocked down, your allies still benefit to end the fight faster. It also makes the use of some of the Finale line of spells a bard even more useful. (Saving Finale, a fist level bard spell is pretty sweet. As an immediate action, you can end a performance to grant an ally another saving throw after they fail. If you have lingering performance, you don't have to waste an action right away to get your performance back up.)
Discordant voice can be fun. Basically any ally under the effect of a bardic performance and within 30 ft of you gets to add +1d6 of sonic damage onto physical attacks.
Some really good advice there. Now I'm eyeing my feat list to see if I can add them both. Discordant Voice could really equate to your dealing a lot of extra damage every round through your allies (we have a Master Summoner in the group), and Lingering Performance would make it especially easy to 'ration' your Bardic Performance if you ever needed to...
I don't like it (but I don't really like bards), but I've seen several recommend pal 2 / bard ~10 / dragon disciple ~8
I could see that being wickedly powerful - and versatile for that matter - but I like our Pally/Dragon Disciple better. He's the most dominant melee threat I've ever seen.
If your DM allows the Faction Guide book, then join the Kitharodian Academy in there and as soon as you have enough TPA take these feats:
your allies greater bonuses.
Prerequisites: Bardic performance class feature, Extra
Performance, Kitharodian Academy 15 TPA.
Benefit: When any of your bardic performance abilities
grant your allies a bonus, that bonus is increased by +1.
your bardic performance abilities.
Prerequisites: Bardic performance class feature,
Extra Performance, Master Performer, bard level 8th,
Kitharodian Academy 20 TPA.
Benefit: When any of your bardic performance abilities
grant your allies a bonus, that bonus increases by +1. This
bonus stacks with the bonus from the Master Performer feat.
It would take up 3 of your feat slots, they both require Extra Performance but if this book is allowed, there's not a better feat chain for a bard out there (who is primarily playing a support role). My group praised me to no end when I got my Inspire Courage bonuses up to +5 at 11th level.
If your DM allows the Faction Guide book, then join the Kitharodian Academy in there and as soon as you have enough TPA take these feats:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
It would take up 3 of your feat slots, they both require Extra Performance but if this book is allowed, there's not a better feat chain for a bard out there (who is primarily playing a support role). My group praised me to no end when I got my Inspire Courage bonuses up to +5 at 11th level.
Geez, I'll bet they did.
Unfortunately the Faction Guide book is a no-go. We're adventuring in a homebrew world - the GM intimated that he might make factions of his own along with all of the accoutrements, which means probably never.
Anyway, considering the feats you recommended, I juggled my selections around a little:
1st Scribe Scroll
1st Skill Focus: Perform (Sing)
1st Improved Unarmed Strike
3rd Snake Style
5th Lingering Performance
7th Spell Focus: Enchantment
9th Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
11th Discordant Voice
13th Spell Penetration
15th Greater Spell Penetration
17th Quicken Spell
19th Improved Initiative
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You might want to check-out this archetype instead. I think it might fit better with what you are trying to do.
The Lotus Geisha: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-a rchetypes/lotus-geisha
I grants Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus Enchantment. It also allows you to wear bard gear. You lose Scribe Scroll, but you can just take that as a feat instead.
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You might want to check-out this archetype instead. I think it might fit better with what you are trying to do.
The Lotus Geisha: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-a rchetypes/lotus-geisha
I grants Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus Enchantment. It also allows you to wear bard gear. You lose Scribe Scroll, but you can just take that as a feat instead.
LOL - I was just coming to post that very thing. Much, much better synergy, and a nice twist on Bardic Performance, something I'm more likely to use than Tea Ceremony.
New Feat list with Lotus Geisha:
1st Spell Focus: Enchantment
1st Skill Focus: Perform (Sing)
1st Improved Unarmed Strike
3rd Snake Style
5th Lingering Performance
5th Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
7th Improved Initiative
9th Spell Penetration
11th Discordant Voice
13th Greater Spell Penetration
15th Scribe Scroll
17th Quicken Spell
19th ??
Love the new set-up, love the synergy of the character. She may not be 'combat-worthy', but she has a very high survivability and is as potent a buffer and enchanter as anyone which fills a niche perfectly within the group.
Still can't quite decide on my final feat though... I'm currently considering the following:
Harmonic Performance - Saves me some Bardic Performance rounds, but by this level I should have plenty.
Protector’s Strike - Figure I might as well get some use out of my one Smite. This will allow me basically once a day, as a free action, to give one ally a +7 to a +10 AC bonus against a single evil foe until they are defeated. Could come in handy against the BBEG.
Reward of Life - Makes use of my Lay on Hands ability to heal me an amount equal to my Charisma mod, which should be high. I could have more than a half-dozen Lay on Hands by then, and each would bump me around 8 hit points of free healing. Sounds ideal for between-combat healing, but I just don't expect to get hurt very often.
Voice of Sibyl - grants some skill bonuses, including to my primary Performance skill which would benefit Snake Style... but by this level that might be overkill.