Knife Master, Underhanded, Quick Draw

[Douglas Muir 406]

Knife Master: rogue archetype, rolls d8s instead of d6s for sneak attack damage if attacking with a dagger or similar light weapon.

Underhanded: rogue talent, lets you automatically take max damage on your SA dice if attacking in a surprise round using a concealed weapon your opponent didn't know about. The language of this talent is, I confess, slightly confusing; it seems to assume that your target is aware of you but not of your weapon. But surely this would work if you sneak up on someone invisibly, or using Stealth? (Full talent description found here:

Spoiler:

A rogue with this talent gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. Furthermore, if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn’t know about, she does not have to roll sneak attack damage, and the sneak attack deals maximum damage. A rogue can only use the underhanded talent a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 0).

)

Quick Draw: feat, draw a weapon as a free action or a concealed weapon as a move action. (Normally those are a move and standard action, respectively.)

So: a midlevel rogue with at least 12 Cha. At 5th level he can stroll up to a victim, chat for a bit, then pull out a dagger and attack. If he hits, that's 25 to 28 points of damage, not counting Str or other damage bonuses. Not gosh-wow amazing, and pretty situational, but not bad.

If we throw Two-weapon Fighting into the mix, though, it starts to get interesting. Our rogue can now get two attacks doing that damage -- at -2, to be sure. But given that the victim will be flatfooted, the odds of doing 50+ points in the surprise round should not be too bad.

This may get a bit less wow at higher levels, depending on how Underhanded works, because if you have to draw your concealed weapon then you lose your iterative attacks. On the other hand, if you can just sneak up behind someone and use Underhanded any time you catch them unawares, then you can probably get iteratives for really massive damage. (And you don't much need Quick Draw, though it's still a decent little feat.)

Thoughts?

Doug M.

[santherus]

suprise round rules p. 178 wrote:

Combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round.

So I'm not sure if/how Underhanded works at all (if you're visible), as you'll only be able to draw the weapon in the suprise round...

I suppose if you're invisible/hidden underhanded will work, but only for a single attack (i.e. the Standard action used to make the attack during the suprise round). No underhanded thereafter, as its no longer the suprise round.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Yeah, it's kinda confusing. Underhanded only works in the surprise round; but you can't get a concealed weapon out of concealment in the surprise round and use it too, even with Quick Draw.

I may try posting this over at Rules Questions.

Doug M.

[Myron Pauls]

You could get a spring-loaded wrist sheath. For 5 gold, you can equip a hidden weapon as a swift action.

[Shifty]

Nice tactic, and very 'flavour + crunch' for Rogues.

[Trinite]

I've just house-ruled that Underhanded works both in the surprise round and during the first round as long as you go before your opponents and they're still flatfooted.

And I would also say that attacking out of stealth also counts for Underhanded. And yes, it works with both TWF and iterative attacks.

I tend to be really generous to Rogues, as I think they need all the help they can get. :) And I like the idea that if a Rogue can catch an opponent completely unawares and strike first, they can do ultra massive damage.

[Umbranus]

There is a trait that gives +1 to damage delt with knifes and daggers that would be a good addition to this build.

[Radavel]

This build reminds of the Egyptian from Spartacus Vengeance.

[GM Kyle]

Umbranus wrote:

There is a trait that gives +1 to damage delt with knifes and daggers that would be a good addition to this build.

River Rat

[Douglas Muir 406]

Myron Pauls wrote:

You could get a spring-loaded wrist sheath. For 5 gold, you can equip a hidden weapon as a swift action.

That's nice, but it's half the point of Quick Draw right there. I mean, if you can buy this thing for 5 gp at first level, it's hard to see why you'd burn a feat slot on Quick Draw.

Doug M.

[neodreamweaver]

I have a plan for this feat to team it up with my Sap specialist.

Sap adept + Sap master + underhanded seems pretty nasty to me

lets see at 5th level thats, 1D6 + 36 + 12 + strength bonus
a + 1 merciful sap makes it even better =)

throw in two weapon fighting, and its possible for a 5th level rogue to do over 100 damage in specific situations.

[psionichamster]

Halfling Rogue (Bandit archetype)

Take the Warslinger Racial Trait

Spoiler:

Warslinger

Halflings are experts at the use of the sling. Halflings with this racial trait can reload a sling as a free action. Reloading a sling still requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity.

This replaces the sure-footed racial trait.

Combine that with Bludgeoner Feat

Add Quick Draw (so, soonest you can start this is 3rd level).

Surprise Round: Quickdraw Hidden Sling as Move Action, Standard Action toss sling stone for non-lethal damage, yielding 1d3+Str+(Rogue Level/2*6).

Works great for those "rooftop ambushes" or "pop out of hidden barrels" routine.

For extra sauciness, work a level of Diviner in there (so the Bandit Warslinger gets to act in EVERY surprise round, and has true strike from time to time).

Eventually, grab a Merciful Sling & Sniper's Goggles, and boom. There's your "David," all 3' of him.

[LeDM]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

That's nice, but it's half the point of Quick Draw right there. I mean, if you can buy this thing for 5 gp at first level, it's hard to see why you'd burn a feat slot on Quick Draw.

Doug M.

Quick Draw works on any weapon, while pretty much the only thing that will fit against your forearm is a dagger.

[Richard Leonhart]

the cool kids these days use underhanded, sap master, merciful double barreled pistols, or so I heard.
Nothing says badass rogue like shooting people point blank in the face, twice.

[bfobar]

You can use Deft Palm to hide the knife you're holding in your hand to use underhanded, Quick draw only lets you draw a concealed weapon as a move action, and you only get a standard action or a move action in the surprise round.

I guess a spring loaded wrist sheath would work, but you need to have the Adventurer's Armory allowed.

So using core + UC, you stroll up next to your opponent, ask them a question about the weather while deft palming a knife (sense motive vs your sleight of hand), and then stab them in the face.

Both deft palm and underhanded only specify weapon, so merciful double barreled pistols with sap master would work. Hilariously.

Now all I need to do is figure out how to work in the two weapon warrior archtype 9th level ability "Doublestrike" into the build.

[Damos Grey]

You could take the Bandit archetype and get a move, standard, and swift on the surprise round.
Lets you draw your hidden weapon (move action with Quick Draw), attack (standard), with a swift action left over.

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

Do weapons in wrist sheaths count as concealed?

[wraithstrike]

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

Do weapons in wrist sheaths count as concealed?

Not if someone can see the wrist sheath.

[Jarred Henninger]

no but they give you a plus +2 to slight of hand to conceal them.