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Yep. Same group behind it, I bet. There's no way that bill showing up in so many iterations in so many states at around the same time period is coincidence.
More analysis of the current version of the trend here.
Yep. Same group behind it, I bet. There's no way that bill showing up in so many iterations in so many states at around the same time period is coincidence.More analysis of the current version of the trend here.
AZ has a number of other discriminatory laws on the books. I'm not at all surprised.
I can't recall offhand, but it may be one of the states where if the child has little to no chance of survival outside the womb, the doctor can cite "religious reasons" and not inform the mother...even if it impacts her health as well.
I can't recall for certain, though.
Yep. Same group behind it, I bet. There's no way that bill showing up in so many iterations in so many states at around the same time period is coincidence.More analysis of the current version of the trend here.
Figures. They would have to pull this now.
Digital Products Assistant
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Not true, especially if they start their transition early. If started early enough, testosterone blockers and estrogen, a young trans woman would not develop as a man. Likewise by taking testosterone trans men essentially develop the same as a cis teenage boy.I'm a little torn on this. On the one hand, it's unfair and discriminatory, people should be able to live as they identify and raising more barriers is wrong.
On the other hand, sports tend to be divided up by sexes for competitive reasons, not just social ones, even in high school. A transwoman is going to have a significant in size, muscle and testosterone over her cis-female classmates. Much like a cis-female taking steroids would.
And a transman would be at a similar disadvantage.
Maybe students taking hormone treatments would come close to par, I'm not sure.On the gripping hand, the bait and switch nature of this policy just makes it ridiculous. And insulting.
Yes, if they're taking hormones. And started early.
If they identify, but aren't actually transitioning...
It isn't right to take away the right to play sports from real, existing kids because of some hypothetical "identify but aren't actually transitioning" children. Leave that level of granularity between the child, their family, and their therapist. The generally accepted mode (which has yet to cause any issues where it's been implemented) is if you're presenting as a gender, you can participate in that gender's sports.
The vast majority of benefits males have over females is due solely to hormones. And the amount of androgens varies hugely from person to person; enough that you can only say that boys tend to have more; you can still easily find examples of cis female students with naturally more androgens (and consequently, more size and miscle mass) than some cis males. And within a few weeks to a few months of starting androgen blockers, that advantage fades. Trans girls tend to be taller, yes, but not taller than tall cis girls. I was a tall girl in high school, but there were cis girls my height (not to mention cis girls who could whoop my butt). And I didn't start hormones until after high school.
There seems to be some debate over a new same sex marriage law in Finland...
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Dan Savage points out now Satanists will be free to persecute Christians, based on the language of the bill...
Oh, Arizona. You just made it possible for a Muslim to refuse service to someone for violating a tenet of Sharia law and somehow, inexplicably, made Glenn Beck right that there's a movement of 'creeping Sharia-ism' in this country. You're like the kid who shouts 'Who farted?' to draw attention away from his own fart.
Never change.
So would the law be better if it required that the child be on hormone treatment? Are their trans folk that don't take hormone treatment? Would it then be discriminating against them, even though they still define and live their life as their gender and not as their assigned birth sex?
Contributor
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So would the law be better if it required that the child be on hormone treatment? Are their trans folk that don't take hormone treatment? Would it then be discriminating against them, even though they still define and live their life as their gender and not as their assigned birth sex?
Yes, it would still be discriminatory.
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Digital Products Assistant
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So would the law be better if it required that the child be on hormone treatment? Are their trans folk that don't take hormone treatment? Would it then be discriminating against them, even though they still define and live their life as their gender and not as their assigned birth sex?Yes, it would still be discriminatory.
Wholeheartedly agree. Not every trans student can afford hormone therapy or find doctors willing to prescribe it to a minor. Like I said, I didn;t start hormone therapy until after high school, so that would have kept me off any girls athletic teams (if I hadn't been a gigantic geek and had actually wanted to play sports), and I really obviously had no place on, and would not be welcomed by, a boys' team.
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Dan Savage points out now Satanists will be free to persecute Christians, based on the language of the bill...Oh, Arizona. You just made it possible for a Muslim to refuse service to someone for violating a tenet of Sharia law and somehow, inexplicably, made Glenn Beck right that there's a movement of 'creeping Sharia-ism' in this country. You're like the kid who shouts 'Who farted?' to draw attention away from his own fart.
Never change.
A response from one pizzeria in Tuscon to the legislation.
A response from one pizzeria in Tuscon to the legislation.Dan Savage points out now Satanists will be free to persecute Christians, based on the language of the bill...Oh, Arizona. You just made it possible for a Muslim to refuse service to someone for violating a tenet of Sharia law and somehow, inexplicably, made Glenn Beck right that there's a movement of 'creeping Sharia-ism' in this country. You're like the kid who shouts 'Who farted?' to draw attention away from his own fart.
Never change.
Well played!
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Digital Products Assistant
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A response from one pizzeria in Tuscon to the legislation.
It is my firmly-held religious belief that Arizona legislators should not be allowed food.
A response from one pizzeria in Tuscon to the legislation.It is my firmly-held religious belief that Arizona legislators should not be allowed food.
Think bigger... I have a firmly-held religious belief that no one should pump water into Arizona.
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Think bigger... I have a firmly-held religious belief that no one should pump water into Arizona.A response from one pizzeria in Tuscon to the legislation.It is my firmly-held religious belief that Arizona legislators should not be allowed food.
I think this is going too far. Punishing people for what those in charge of them do doesn't necessarily make things better.
However, not pumping water to the lawmakers...
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Think bigger... I have a firmly-held religious belief that no one should pump water into Arizona.A response from one pizzeria in Tuscon to the legislation.It is my firmly-held religious belief that Arizona legislators should not be allowed food.I think this is going too far. Punishing people for what those in charge of them do doesn't necessarily make things better.
However, pumping mustard gas to the lawmakers...
Fixed that for you
:D
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As an atheist, I firmly believe that if they want to be guided by their god then they can pray for manna. I wonder how that would play out with their laws? What's going to happen when a Muslim says he refuses to do business with a Christian or Jew? What happens when the Jewish truck driver refuses to deliver pork but will deliver the beef and chicken to the local Safeway? What are these lawmakers going to do then? They are going to whine that the law wasn't meant for that. They most certainly will because we've already seen it with laws about schools and religion in LA.
I have no problem with people exercising their religious beliefs. I don't like when it's legislated. I also don't like when anyone of any faith thinks that their faith is the end-all-be-all of how the rest of us should live. I can't find it right now but I read an article, written by a Christian, on why we need secular and not religious laws in America. The best line was: you will never be Christian enough. The author went on to say that some lawmaker will always find another Biblical law that needs to be part of our society and eventually you will not be able to follow all the laws. The argument holds true for all faiths. This author just happened to be a Christian.
I've a few general questions if no one minds, regarding appropriate terminology. I very much appreciate any responses if someone wishes to give them, and also apologize ahead of time for any ignorance I may possess. :3
- What is a good term for someone who identifies closely with -neither- gender? I've heard asexual, as well as supposedly, FB introduced neutrois. Are these acceptable terms? Is one preferable? Are there better terms?
- This one is a little trickier. ...if you had the option in a game to list a gender for a character, and are able to pick from a variety of options...should those options include trans?
I ask this as I've had a few responses on this topic. Some folks seem to want to be able to be identified as such, others would prefer to only list for example, male or female.
I do appreciate the feedback, and ask y'ignore me if this is in any way offensive. :) Also, if this has been discussed before...this is quite a long thread, though I certainly appreciate it, and the responses given.
Assistant Software Developer
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- This one is a little trickier. ...if you had the option in a game to list a gender for a character, and are able to pick from a variety of options...should those options include trans?
I ask this as I've had a few responses on this topic. Some folks seem to want to be able to be identified as such, others would prefer to only list for example, male or female.
Have all three and let them self-identify. Better more than less really. Just make clear that it's not prescriptive gender.
I can't really comment on the first.
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I'm no expert in the field of gender jargon, but it seems obvious to me that when filling in a form (or character sheet), 'gender' should not be followed with:
• male/female
nor
• male/female/other
nor
• male/female/(long-and ever growing-list of other terms)
it should simply say:
• Gender:__________
and let you fill in the blank.
That way, anyone who feels that the choice should be limited to male/female (for some reason) can write 'male' or 'female', and this will in no way prevent anyone else from filling in whichever term they prefer.
Would there be any problem with that?
I've a few general questions if no one minds, regarding appropriate terminology. I very much appreciate any responses if someone wishes to give them, and also apologize ahead of time for any ignorance I may possess. :3
- What is a good term for someone who identifies closely with -neither- gender? I've heard asexual, as well as supposedly, FB introduced neutrois. Are these acceptable terms? Is one preferable? Are there better terms?
- This one is a little trickier. ...if you had the option in a game to list a gender for a character, and are able to pick from a variety of options...should those options include trans?
I ask this as I've had a few responses on this topic. Some folks seem to want to be able to be identified as such, others would prefer to only list for example, male or female.
I do appreciate the feedback, and ask y'ignore me if this is in any way offensive. :) Also, if this has been discussed before...this is quite a long thread, though I certainly appreciate it, and the responses given.
As others above said, I would suggest that it just be left open-ended and let the player decide how they wish to define the character.
One place can become an issue is with something like PF's random height and weight. If all characters are suppose to use the random generator to come up with the character's height or weight, there are only two options male or female for a given race.
And this is exactly why the proposed movie adaptation of Neil Gaiman's American Gods got shut down before it even started. One of the first things executives asked him in a meeting was if their was any way to make the main character white. Gaiman got up and left the meeting then and there.I get what people are saying, but I'm pretty uncomfortable with the idea that actors should only play whatever they are.Certainly not only. Noone ever said only. It's just that it would be nice if minority actors who are often skipped over because they are minorities at least get a chance at the part that actually calls for their minority instead of just saying, "Can we make this another white guy?" It's insulting. Often with transcharacters it's also triggering.
Well, to be fair, American Gods ended with Shadow being strung up in a sort-of crucifixion, and everyone knows that Jesus was white.
Oh wait...
@ Freehold: Shadow is coffee with cream.
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In response to Rugg's second question, I've had a couple of trans* characters in my game, and in general I find it best to let the player decide how they want to describe their character's gender. Different players have different ways they're comfortable labeling their character. As in much of gaming, more options are better. :)
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Please don't feed the troll.
1) Account created just for this.
2) Protesting thread for non-gamer focus, yet hasn't protested other non-gamer threads on this forum.
3) Claims to have read thread, yet statement reflects denial and/or rather exactly what causes the angst to begin with.
4) Claims to have read thread and dismisses our worldview as porn. See #3.
5) Binary statements do not reflect reality or actual science . ie XX, XY only, yet there are XXY and XXXY. Human Chimeras (Multiple DNA, one human), Persons born with both gendered body parts and some with neither. That is just the physical biology side.
Troll.
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I've seen a few people in this thread and others say that this topic is not appropriate for a gaming forum. Let me remind them that this is the Off Topic section. If you don't want to be part of the conversation then choose not to click on the thread.
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I've seen a few people in this thread and others say that this topic is not appropriate for a gaming forum. Let me remind them that this is the Off Topic section. If you don't want to be part of the conversation then choose not to click on the thread.
Pretty much this. You can join the conversation, whether you're on our side or against us. But the great thing about the internet is that we can have these kind of conversations and support groups for people in a community.
And if you don't think this conversation should be allowed, you can always flag it or even better, click the 'hide' button and never read it again. But we'll keep this thread alive, whether you like it or not.
I've a few general questions if no one minds, regarding appropriate terminology. I very much appreciate any responses if someone wishes to give them, and also apologize ahead of time for any ignorance I may possess. :3
- What is a good term for someone who identifies closely with -neither- gender? I've heard asexual, as well as supposedly, FB introduced neutrois. Are these acceptable terms? Is one preferable? Are there better terms?
- This one is a little trickier. ...if you had the option in a game to list a gender for a character, and are able to pick from a variety of options...should those options include trans?
I ask this as I've had a few responses on this topic. Some folks seem to want to be able to be identified as such, others would prefer to only list for example, male or female.
I do appreciate the feedback, and ask y'ignore me if this is in any way offensive. :) Also, if this has been discussed before...this is quite a long thread, though I certainly appreciate it, and the responses given.
Rugg,
The term I've heard for the first is "agender." (Though apparently "neutrois" is a more recently similar term. I've not heard it outside of the facebook thing.)
And as others have said, more is better. But keep in mind that a trans person might prefer to simply stick with male or female (assuming they fit within the gender binary) rather than putting the prefix trans on it. For example, while I identify as a trans woman, I left my facebook gender setting to female.
I've seen a few people in this thread and others say that this topic is not appropriate for a gaming forum. Let me remind them that this is the Off Topic section. If you don't want to be part of the conversation then choose not to click on the thread.
Actually it is in the gamer talk section, not that is really critical, just mentioning it for clarity sake.
I've a few general questions if no one minds, regarding appropriate terminology. I very much appreciate any responses if someone wishes to give them, and also apologize ahead of time for any ignorance I may possess. :3
- What is a good term for someone who identifies closely with -neither- gender? I've heard asexual, as well as supposedly, FB introduced neutrois. Are these acceptable terms? Is one preferable? Are there better terms?
- This one is a little trickier. ...if you had the option in a game to list a gender for a character, and are able to pick from a variety of options...should those options include trans?
I ask this as I've had a few responses on this topic. Some folks seem to want to be able to be identified as such, others would prefer to only list for example, male or female.
I do appreciate the feedback, and ask y'ignore me if this is in any way offensive. :) Also, if this has been discussed before...this is quite a long thread, though I certainly appreciate it, and the responses given.
It would be better to just let a person input their gender and preferred pronouns. Because I don't think it is possible for anything to ever cover the full set of gender possibilities. And that's before you get to the people who are so far off the spectrum of normal that they're not even part of the conversation.
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I'm no expert in the field of gender jargon, but it seems obvious to me that when filling in a form (or character sheet), 'gender' should not be followed with:
• male/female
nor
• male/female/other
nor
• male/female/(long-and ever growing-list of other terms)
it should simply say:
• Gender:__________
and let you fill in the blank.
That way, anyone who feels that the choice should be limited to male/female (for some reason) can write 'male' or 'female', and this will in no way prevent anyone else from filling in whichever term they prefer.
Would there be any problem with that?
Malachi, I think that's a good idea.
Would there be any problem with that?
It makes it a little harder for the computer to count statistics. It can understand options 1 2 3 but has no way to group male with boy or pointy arrow circle thing for example.
I'm no expert in the field of gender jargon, but it seems obvious to me that when filling in a form (or character sheet), 'gender' should not be followed with:
• male/female
nor
• male/female/other
nor
• male/female/(long-and ever growing-list of other terms)
it should simply say:
• Gender:__________
and let you fill in the blank.
That way, anyone who feels that the choice should be limited to male/female (for some reason) can write 'male' or 'female', and this will in no way prevent anyone else from filling in whichever term they prefer.
Would there be any problem with that?
I just hunted through some of the recent programs I've written for my programming class, because I knew I had seen something along these lines.
It can be done. It's a little more complicated in programming, but through the use of assigning aliases you can have it so that people who enter something like "boy" or "male" or "man" would be counted as the same gender. It requires a lot of additions to the library, and requires someone to go through after and see if they missed any that need to be added to the library as well, but overall it's mostly time consuming. In fact, one of the recent programs I did was along these lines, but not actually complex enough to serve the purpose.
So, there's really no problems with this.
Edit: Note my experience is with C++; it's probably easier to do in C#.
I've seen a few people in this thread and others say that this topic is not appropriate for a gaming forum. Let me remind them that this is the Off Topic section. If you don't want to be part of the conversation then choose not to click on the thread.Actually it is in the gamer talk section, not that is really critical, just mentioning it for clarity sake.
You are correct. My bad. The rest still stands as you suggested.
I'm no expert in the field of gender jargon, but it seems obvious to me that when filling in a form (or character sheet), 'gender' should not be followed with:
• male/female
nor
• male/female/other
nor
• male/female/(long-and ever growing-list of other terms)
it should simply say:
• Gender:__________
and let you fill in the blank.
That way, anyone who feels that the choice should be limited to male/female (for some reason) can write 'male' or 'female', and this will in no way prevent anyone else from filling in whichever term they prefer.
Would there be any problem with that?
I just hunted through some of the recent programs I've written for my programming class, because I knew I had seen something along these lines.
It can be done. It's a little more complicated in programming, but through the use of assigning aliases you can have it so that people who enter something like "boy" or "male" or "man" would be counted as the same gender. It requires a lot of additions to the library, and requires someone to go through after and see if they missed any that need to be added to the library as well, but overall it's mostly time consuming. In fact, one of the recent programs I did was along these lines, but not actually complex enough to serve the purpose.
So, there's really no problems with this.
Edit: Note my experience is with C++; it's probably easier to do in C#.
I'm not sure it would be an option, but I can look into it. I admit--I'm a little more on the side of "a varied list which players can petition and suggest to add to, and which evolves with the game" for a few reasons...
- It clearly illustrates that there are other options aside from binary
- It positions those options as equal (that is, it gives them equal gravity with male|female)
- It allows you to offer unique options based on race (if this is a thing)
- Census
...Census is a powerful tool for a game. It can become very difficult to sort data if instead of say, 12 options...there are 47, each variations of multiple themes. It is a lot of work by game staff to sort through, especially if that staff is limited.
This isn't saying it is not a great idea--it definitely is.
There are just well, considerations aside from "can it be done, technically"? Both would likely work well, and have ups and downs.
Also, a big thank you to all of the feedback so far.
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I just picked up arcana evolved from a friend's house and find the genderless mojh fascinating.
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I just picked up arcana evolved from a friend's house and find the genderless mojh fascinating.
While the game has had gendered persons entering effectively gender-less states (lich, vampire, ghost) pretty much since day one, the mojh (and Ghostwalk's eidolons and Eberron's warforged) are some of the first truly genderless PCs, with the warforged being even further removed, because of not being gendered persons who *became* genderless, but actually started out that way. Eberron's changelings took it in another direction, being any gender (or none) as they pleased.
Eberron really did push envelopes, in that sense. Genderless PCs, PCs with fluid genders, non-evil orcs, non-evil undead. The whole setting was good for throwing out labels and opening up ideas for exploration that had been taboo to previous generations. Many other settings fall into the 'let's not rock the boat' traditional sense, and might add dozens of new races (half of them elven sub-races, it seemed, at times), but most of them were very gender and type traditional (and mostly humanoid and / or mammalian) with a mommy and a daddy and nothing too scary or unconventional about them.
Golarion's Samsaran are perhaps the races best suited to exploring gender-issues and flouting convention. A race that periodically swaps genders, from life to life? Yeah, that's got potential. Androids might also have some potential.
Androids are a dead-end on potential. They've been explored in sci-fi and, in general, it's viewed that they're not human enough to really speak on the issues of sexuality. Plus, they're dismissed by a lot of groups as being okay for alternate sexualities because those groups view them as soulless automatons; in effect, it's just people playing make-believe with toys in the eyes of a lot of people.
The Warforged are somewhat better in that they brought up questions on if humanity could instill its creations with souls and, in turn, what that means for both humanity and its creations. But even then, Eberron had warforged written up to where they actually were not genderless (depending on the player they either chose their gender or had it programmed into them, while the write-up in the Eberron campaign book heavily implied they are not genderless without being horrifically evil or pretty much giving up being alive) and it's still a massive ways away from getting into issues of sexuality. So Eberron kinda went the traditional path with warforged on gender anyway. They were just sexless... but the writeup also indicated that them being sexless was not always entirely true as well. Pretty much, Eberron went out of its way to try to make the warforged as like the standard races as they could while still maintaining uniqueness. The only exception is the Lord of Blades and his followers, who were pretty much written up as the Golarian version of Nazis in the core setting book.
Incidentally, the only race known for being truly capable of being sexless and for changing genders at will was also most famous for prostitution and crime. Reading the write-up on changelings when it came to their presence in Sharn and several other cities actually made me avoid that race just due to all of the unfortunate implications tied to them.