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My tale is rather long, I discovered I was gay at the age of 14. I had hints before. However I was a member of a church that was not very accepting of that sexual orientation (I will leave the name out as I don't wish to cause controversy). This lead to intense prayer on my part, as well as severe depression. I was one of the well known young people in the community spending most of the time on my grandfathers farm, being a member of the football team. I tried to date women over that time but couldn't even bring myself to even kiss them. Luckily I could pass that off from being exceptionally religious. Needless to say things came to a head at the start of my senior year, after a failed but nearly successful suicide attempt (with maybe 10 minutes to spare) I decided that it just wasn't worth it anymore, putting up this facade to try and maintain false friendships and relationships. I came out to everyone, I was excommunicated from my church no one was to have contact with me, I was kicked out of the house my family having to follow the edicts of the church. I quit the football team after the guys made it abundantly clear with a broken arm and a bloody nose and two black eyes that they didn't feel comfortable on the team. I ended up being beaten up many times in that short period, and I graduated high school with honors and went to the University of New York. I currently hold a masters degree, and I married the love of my life in 2010. I game as regularly as I can with my mostly straight male friends (what can I say my personality didn't change much when I came out, except gain confidence). I was bitter against religion for a lot of years but I learned to accept it even though I am myself an atheist, I realize not everyone is like my family and the church I haled from.Ouch, damn, that sucks. I'm glad it has worked out for you now though. It's good your happy now and that bitterness about being betrayed by everyone that was suppose to take care of you didn't ruin you.
Living bitter and angry isn`t a life I want. Sure really crappy things happened to me, but I needed to at some point move on. None of these bad experiences stopped me, if anything they made a much more caring and sensitive person in the end. Despite all of it I ended up with a decent education and a loving husband so who am I to complain.
As for gaming here in Canada as a gay male. Well most of my friends are straight males funny enough, we game like there is no difference at all between us, heck they`ve even tried to get my husband to play :P. We even had an instance where I played a female character and she ended up in a relationship with one of the other PCs as time went on. Now here in Canada as in the US public acceptance varies from place to place, but it has certainly helped that gay marriage has been legal since 2006, we even have many major queer politicians in most of our political parties. I think a big part of things is to again be as open as possible and let people know we are here.
I remember a conversation I had with a straight friend who commented that he would have never known I was gay unless I had said something. I told him that the GLBT runs the full spectrum of personalities and there are A LOT of gay people who are just like me, the ones that are effeminate and obvious are only the ones you are noticing. The same goes for my husband many remarked the same when he came out, he is the outdoorsy type he goes for regular field seasons for his studies where he lives out of a tent for 3 months. People need to know that we are everywhere.
Is anyone doing it in here yet? No. Bohr-ihng!
As for bisexuals, Samnell, you're the only one I trust in here: how does Kinsey's work hold up academically? My old comrades and Gore Vidal used to always write about him approvingly, and Laura Linney was so hawt in that flick!
Anyway, seriously, how's his 1-8 scale hold up?
You trust me? Oh dear... :)
According to my recollections and Wikipedia, it's a good starting point but doesn't capture the whole story. There also some issues mentioned in the link in my last post about bisexuality that it doesn't treat very well. The basic idea that it's not a black and white distinction but rather a continuum of sexualities holds up pretty well.
I'd probably want to add effeminacy and masculinity as well as intensity and significance of feelings of attraction for a more complete picture. I'm not sure how I would fit sex identity in, but it deserves a place too. There should probably be a place for situational sexuality as well, if not quite the same one. So it should be a Kinsey...plain? Manifold? Hypercube? Klein bottle?
A good friend of mine told me that 10% of the world is completely and utterly heterosexual. 10% is completely and utterly homosexual. The other 80% is bisexual to some degree, it's just a matter of whether or not you act on it. With this definition, men who engage in threesomes or foursomes or orgies could be considered bisexual, whereas several men I know would be considered heterosexual, since they can only ever really copulate with one or multiple women present.
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Being bi/pansexual myself, I approve of this thread! A bunch of my friends know, and I'm sure my mom has guessed(she's asked if I've had a boy or girlfriend before), but the rest of my family is still in the dark about it.
I just wish I knew how my dad would react if he knew I liked guys. He's been talking about how he wants me to name my first son after me(I'm a 3rd, hence the 3 in Dragonborn3), and I'm pretty sure he was thinking I'd have a wife for that.
My friends are awesome about it though, so that's good. :)
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Background establishing credential:
Gaming experience: #1 One mixed(male/female) group, I had just joined I played different gender PC, when introduced, there was a distinct pause, awkward silence as I was the center of everyone’s stares. Realizing the testosterone was churning and the estrogen was feeling infringed fearful of mockery, I explained their concerns away, ie Not a fetish player, nor exploring my sexuality, I just wanted to play. [/eyeroll] All was well, and I played no differently than the female gamers with their characters. The odd part was one of the females who was playing a male PC, had the greatest concern.
#2 Quite by accident, I ended up playing an female NPC, now PC. This did not sit well with a certain misogynic player who pretty much fits the stereotype in those related gamer threads. Unfortunately, he had the wherewithal (in-game skills and meta-game connections) to [insert stereotypical misogynic bad gamer fantasy] to my character. Disgusted I left the group and although I see this guy at the FLGS a lot I refuse to play at any table with him at it.
#3 Other instances were non-issues. I was on stand-by notice for a couple of groups. These stand out only with the groups’ concern that I was not “insulted” for playing a female PC. Not a big deal.
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Unfortunately I am straight (except maybe if Matthew McCon...) so I really have no good stories about my own experiences and my group doesn't have any GLBT in it that I know of. I have a few L, G, and B friends but it doesn't equate to having pertinent knowledge on this subject.......so in short, I am reading this thread and enjoying it but I feel slightly excluded because it is specifically for GLBT....
Anyway, sorry, I guess I just wish I was GLBorT......
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Unfortunately I am straight (except maybe if Matthew McCon...) so I really have no good stories about my own experiences and my group doesn't have any GLBT in it that I know of. I have a few L, G, and B friends but it doesn't equate to having pertinent knowledge on this subject.......so in short, I am reading this thread and enjoying it but I feel slightly excluded because it is specifically for GLBT....
Anyway, sorry, I guess I just wish I was GLBorT......
1) I don't think this is a exclusionary thread as much as the title was a spoiler for those whose sensibilities might be offended. Join in. Oh wait, you are already here... Welcome.
2) I have never heard someone wishing they were GLBorT. As usually it comes with a lot of baggage, not something people would "Choose" to experience. Perhaps times are indeed changing.
In my gaming group (since I forgot to mention it in my initial post) we have a split of 2 men, 2 women and all four are bi-sexual to one degree or another. In my original group it was 5 guys 4 very straight (and very homophobic) so coming out among them would have been suicide (literally), and it would have been awkward in anycase, since one of them was/is my brother and I suspect that my family would not have been the most accepting of people at that point in my life.
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Hey, I'm straight and I feel quite welcome here.
dot.
Edit: Will post something groundbreaking once I catch up on the conversation.
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2) I have never heard someone wishing they were GLBorT. As usually it comes with a lot of baggage, not something people would "Choose" to experience. Perhaps times are indeed changing.
I don't think I've ever wished I was straight, except maybe idly in a moment of irritation over hetero fan service filling something I was previously enjoying a lot and turning it into dead air for me. I know Eliezer Yudkowsky has said something to the effect that while he's straight he would take a pill or injection that made him bisexual so he could enjoy all the affections of the other 50% of the species. Not sure if I'd take it myself, but it's at least an interesting position.
Does it trivialize bisexuality by reducing it to fun time? I'm not sure and being gay am skeptical of the value of my opinion on the question. Certainly he'd take the pill for fun time reasons, but that shouldn't preclude him then getting into meaningful relationships thereafter like any other bisexual.
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2) I have never heard someone wishing they were GLBorT. As usually it comes with a lot of baggage, not something people would "Choose" to experience. Perhaps times are indeed changing.
On point 2. I grew up in a non-religious, Catholic family (our bible was the one that none of us read, but that everyone knows tells us to hate those different from us) that practiced the fine art of cutting others down to elevate ourselves....all the stereotypes were fair game. I realized early on that my black friends, nerd friends, and all the others that were "rejects" for whatever reason were usually the most welcoming and interesting people around. Something else I have seen is that most of the "not normal" people I knew really seemed to be fairly strong in the personality department which is something I value highly. My reason for saying that I wished for that is because I had no real focus in those years and just sort of existed in a limbo between the normal jock/prep world and the Geek/alternative world while not really being in either because I didn't hate the "weirdos" or I wasn't one of the "rejects".
I had a ton of baggage but I made it all myself trying to figure out where I fit in....I feel like if my baggage was for a reason or cause that it would have been more understandable even if it was harder.I'd rather travel the difficult somewhat known path then travel in the fog down an unknown road to an unknown place, I guess.....if that makes sense.....
2) I have never heard someone wishing they were GLBorT. As usually it comes with a lot of baggage, not something people would "Choose" to experience. Perhaps times are indeed changing.
Actually, I think it's more common than you might think. I know there was a time in my life where I felt like I fit in WAY better with the gay crowd, and wished I could have been "on their team." (Ironically, years later, I'd realize that I had been all along.) But wanting to fit in is a universal human emotion, and I bet a lot of folks fortunate enough to exist in an awesome gay community have had moments of wanting to share that camaraderie more fully, or feeling like so many parts of their personality would make more sense if they were gay. (Especially if you otherwise evidence a lot of "gay" behaviors, and are perhaps being persecuted for them, regardless of your actual sexuality.)
"Gay" may be a stereotyped and persecuted label, but it's still a label, which means it can carry with it a sense of identity. It's got a certain panache in popular culture, and it's a much easier concept for most folks to grasp than a more complicated (and perhaps more accurate) explanation. And like any label, it can be embraced and used like armor.
Scooped by FakeHealer. :D
Wow, Dogblade. Thank you for starting this thread, and thank you everyone else for posting in it.
One of things I always find interesting is the public perception that while bi women are everywhere, bi guys are must actually be gay dudes who are only halfway out of the closet--a stereotype held even by the LGBT community.
Funny story: I was at a gay bar recently as part of a (gay) friend's bachelor party. It was pretty packed, and the swirling crowd made it so I ended up talking to a bunch of folks I didn't know (many of whom were DEEP into their cups). They immediately signaled me out as "the straight friend" in the bachelor party, and wanted to make sure I felt welcome. When I informed them that, actually, I'm *not* straight, they were all, "Oh, it's okay, no need to be embarrassed--we have plenty of straight friends!" When I insisted that, no, really, I'm bi, they all scoffed and insisted that such things didn't actually exist. We got to talking, and as I explained, they all got these amazed looks and said "Holy s~$+! There really ARE bi guys!" They then proceeded to parade me drunkenly around the bar like some sort of magical animal, introducing me to other astonished gay guys as "proof."
Just goes to prove what they say about assumptions--they make an ass out of you and mptions.
Yes it is hilariously terrible when you encounter people that should really, REALLY know better than to hold certain prejudices, given what they themselves face, but in the end we are all like that to some degree. You are right you can't just assume you know what is happening with someone and expect to achieve any level of deeper understanding about them, no matter how clear what is going on with them seems to be to you. The only way to truly understand a person is to listen to what they have to say and let them tell you their personal truth.
I’m glad Paizo is a safe, friendly place for people of all orientations to work, that makes me happy.
On another note I read Death’s Heretic recently and really liked it. You’re characterization was excellent and the story was far more philosophically deep than your average fantasy tale. I also liked the villain and his plot, I may use it as the basis for an adventure once I get used to DMing and my PCs are high enough level.
There is nothing about this thread that is meant to be exclusionary, anyone can post what they like, as I said before, just be kind.
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Question for bisexual Paizonians...
I have heard it said among gay men and lesbians that one should not get "too attached" to a bisexual boyfriend/girlfriend, because when it comes time to "settle down", the bisexual person will do so with someone of the opposite sex to have children, blend into society, etc.
Is this something you have run into? I'll admit that all of the bisexual people I know have indeed married someone of the opposite sex, but my sample size is too small to make any generalities. Is there societal pressure in this regard? Does it make it difficult to have relationships with people of the same sex?
Just curious about other people's experiences.
Hey, I'm straight and I feel quite welcome here.
You are.
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pft
To be honest that sounds like a huge stereotype only because it assumes that every bisexual cares about fitting in with society. You might as well not trust anyone ever because it's possible for them to turn around and betray you. I think it's important to figure out if your loved one cares more about how society sees them or if they care about you.
I don't really identify as bi, but if I were in a relationship with a man, I would have to be really jaded to not care that anyone knows that I'm with a man now, and then years down the line suddenly want to 'integrate' into society.
EDIT: I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, because some people do feel societal pressure like that, but it's exactly the same as if a gay man were to marry a woman for the same exact reason. Or if a guy who likes interracial relationships marries someone of the same ethnicity to please the parents, etc.
Hey, I'm straight and I feel quite welcome here.You are.
grudgingly. ;-) /kidding
pft
To be honest that sounds like a huge stereotype only because it assumes that every bisexual cares about fitting in with society. You might as well not trust anyone ever because it's possible for them to turn around and betray you. I think it's important to figure out if your loved one cares more about how society sees them or if they care about you.
I don't really identify as bi, but if I were in a relationship with a man, I would have to be really jaded to not care that anyone knows that I'm with a man now, and then years down the line suddenly want to 'integrate' into society.
Statistically bisexuals will leave a hetero relationship in favor of a gay one far more often than the reverse. The reverse is typically a case of religious pressures that inevitably backfire.
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Question for bisexual Paizonians...
I have heard it said among gay men and lesbians that one should not get "too attached" to a bisexual boyfriend/girlfriend, because when it comes time to "settle down", the bisexual person will do so with someone of the opposite sex to have children, blend into society, etc.
Is this something you have run into? I'll admit that all of the bisexual people I know have indeed married someone of the opposite sex, but my sample size is too small to make any generalities. Is there societal pressure in this regard? Does it make it difficult to have relationships with people of the same sex?
Just curious about other people's experiences.
I have heard this, but what I've noticed is that my bisexual friends that are with people of the same sex tend to get lumped into the gay portion of the community. I've even heard the "well, they weren't *really* bi, just figuring themselves out." or "It's just easier to say I'm gay".
To me, saying that a bisexual boyfriend/girlfriend will only "settle down" with someone of the opposite sex is kind of like saying because someone dates blondes as well as brunettes, blondes should never take her seriously because she'll leave you for a brunette in the end. That is a slight simplification because there is still a cultural push (in some places, a WHOLE lot more than others) for "hetero-normal". but it can kind of become a self fulfilling prophecy because if your partner doesn't trust you, it won't last.
I have heard it said among gay men and lesbians that one should not get "too attached" to a bisexual boyfriend/girlfriend, because when it comes time to "settle down", the bisexual person will do so with someone of the opposite sex to have children, blend into society, etc.
Is this something you have run into? I'll admit that all of the bisexual people I know have indeed married someone of the opposite sex, but my sample size is too small to make any generalities. Is there societal pressure in this regard? Does it make it difficult to have relationships with people of the same sex?
Just curious about other people's experiences.
I heard that too: a friend once noted that her bisexual female friends often point that they gladly have sex with other women but for extended relationships they prefer males.
The only player of mine who openly claims to be bisexual is in long term relationship with male (another player of mine and our 3.5 GM). From her few comments about women I can guess that she is attracted to petite very feminine women but in males she is attracted to tougher, masculine man.
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In the interests of the inclusive nature of this thread ...
The vast majority of the people that I have shared a game table with over the years have been straight (as far as I am aware), but the guy who introduced me to Dungeons and Dragons back when I was about 11 or 12 is gay.
I didn’t know at the time, we met on the first day of high school and hit it off, we were both in fantasy and he played D&D, within a couple of weeks I had made a character, found another player and we were off gaming.
About two - three years down the track he came out to me. At the time I believe his family knew he was gay, but no one at school knew, and I think he had had bad experiences trying to come out to other friends before. I will never forget, when he told me he was gay he added, “I understand if you don’t want to be my friend anymore.” I was really amazed that he would think that at the time – he was still the same guy I had known for years, I now just knew something else about him. But since then I learnt more about how cruel and bigoted people could be and belatedly understood what he meant.
Being about 14 or 15 at the time, I think maybe a couple of the other guys in our regular group might have been a bit off put by it, but no one voiced any issues and the relationships did not really change. My friend moved away for a while at one point (family issues) and then back towards the end of high school (and has moved away again now). After school there were periods where he invited boyfriends or other gay friends to the game, I don’t believe there was ever any issues or uncomfortableness (as far as I could tell) from the rest of the (straight) group (which by that point had changed line-up to some degree from the original high school group)
I’ve never felt any sexual or romantic attraction to men, but I can appreciate a good looking or well dressed or groomed man and have been known to compliment my friends (male and female) on their looks if I think something is extra special or different. I don’t know if that is part of the reason, or if it is simply that I am polite, well- and softly spoken and have very little interest in sports, cars etc, or that I have some gay friends (mostly with zero interest in pnp gaming); but at various points in my life people have assumed that I am gay. Fortunately I have never been at the receiving end of any unkindness or violence based on this assumption, but it has created some awkwardness when it is the girl that I’ve been (politely) chatting up at a party for half the night who says ‘Oh, I thought you were gay’. As I’ve aged, probably become less polite, certainly become less fashionable in appearance and (probably particularly) settled down and had kids, that assumption hasn’t reared its head very often – and I usually take it as something of a compliment when it does.
Statistically bisexuals will leave a hetero relationship in favor of a gay one far more often than the reverse. The reverse is typically a case of religious pressures that inevitably backfire.
Indeed, this is what I have noticed over the years.
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I have found it somewhat offensive/disappointing when some girl I've been speaking to assumes I'm gay. The level of offense/disappointment has decreased significantly over the years. It many ways, it's hard to be non-stereotypical, but I've found that it says more about the person you are being judged by than oneself.
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Question for bisexual Paizonians...
I have heard it said among gay men and lesbians that one should not get "too attached" to a bisexual boyfriend/girlfriend, because when it comes time to "settle down", the bisexual person will do so with someone of the opposite sex to have children, blend into society, etc.
Is this something you have run into? I'll admit that all of the bisexual people I know have indeed married someone of the opposite sex, but my sample size is too small to make any generalities. Is there societal pressure in this regard? Does it make it difficult to have relationships with people of the same sex?
Just curious about other people's experiences.
I think it depends on the person. I mean a bisexual person may not be equally bi. By that I mean they may prefer one gender over the other for varies reason. Like me, I am physically more attracted to other women. Emotionally I am more attracted to men. So I tend to have a lot more flings with other women while most of my long term relationships have been with men. So I think it really comes down to what they are most comfortable with in which direction they will lean.
But as far as seeing relationships end, I have seen about a equal mix of bisexuals leaving one gender for the other, regardless of the gender of their partner.
Question for bisexual Paizonians...
I have heard it said among gay men and lesbians that one should not get "too attached" to a bisexual boyfriend/girlfriend, because when it comes time to "settle down", the bisexual person will do so with someone of the opposite sex to have children, blend into society, etc.
Is this something you have run into? I'll admit that all of the bisexual people I know have indeed married someone of the opposite sex, but my sample size is too small to make any generalities. Is there societal pressure in this regard? Does it make it difficult to have relationships with people of the same sex?
Just curious about other people's experiences.
Weirdly enough this is the first time I have ever even heard that. I can't speak for Bi-Sexuals in general but in my case gender has never played a role in who I am willing to have a long term relationship with and as far as marriage goes I would marry a man if I believed we were a forever item(and if it were legal where I am.) As far as societal pressures here in the United States at least having an openly homosexual relationship is just hard in general so I wouldn't be surprised if it were a factor.
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A note to straight guys who have experienced people thinking they are gay; In all likelihood it prolly just means you are clean, polite and soft spoken, all positive qualities. What you might want to try is that the next time you are flirting with a girl at a party and she makes a comment about you being gay instead of being offended say: "Yes, I am gay. I have never been with a woman, though I'm curious about what it would be like." and just see what happens.
Question for bisexual Paizonians...
I have heard it said among gay men and lesbians that one should not get "too attached" to a bisexual boyfriend/girlfriend, because when it comes time to "settle down", the bisexual person will do so with someone of the opposite sex to have children, blend into society, etc.
Is this something you have run into? I'll admit that all of the bisexual people I know have indeed married someone of the opposite sex, but my sample size is too small to make any generalities. Is there societal pressure in this regard? Does it make it difficult to have relationships with people of the same sex?
Just curious about other people's experiences.
I must say that I find this to just be untrue. It is a stereotype, and a particularly harmful one, from my perspective. I have not seen any studies on the gender that bisexual individuals end up with over the long term (to the best of my knowledge, there has been very little hard academic work done on the matter since Kinsey, with new work just now getting started - if anyone can give me studies, I would love to see them), but I would assume that the break is either equal or more or less along the Kinsey scale lines, with two addendums: 1) in my experience, bisexual people tend to be happiest and tend to gravitate to other bisexuals, and 2) this assumes a base monogamous model, which does not necessarily hold across the spectrum. It also assumes that a life-long bond to a particular individual is the desired goal of personal romantic relationships, which, again, does not necessarily hold across the spectrum, but is less objectionable an assumption.
Anecdotally: I have to say, both sides of the fence are quite good.
Well from the lips of my bisexual(?) friend, "Too much estrogen and then there's all this drama". The effect is the same, but the reasoning is much different than society. Apparently her last girlfriend would get b+@~@y and become a drama queen on her.
Although I'll admit that it's not that commonly acknowledged, but there are guys who get defensive and dependent and there are girls that are negligent and headstrong. These personalities are generally associated with one gender (girls as defensive/dependent and guys as negligent/headstrong).
With her (I think, it's not like I'm psyche major or anything) she enjoys the body of a woman but doesn't really care for the personality...
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A note to straight guys who have experienced people thinking they are gay; In all likelihood it prolly just means you are clean, polite and soft spoken, all positive qualities. What you might want to try is that the next time you are flirting with a girl at a party and she makes a comment about you being gay instead of being offended say: "Yes, I am gay. I have never been with a woman, though I'm curious about what it would be like." and just see what happens.
Ha! That is great. Were my days of flirting at parties not long behind me I would be tempted to try that one.
Awesome thread. Looking forward to future readings. I love learning about people and the world (as it tends to influence my decision on weather or not the world need a rebooting, or simply a re-educating :P). Meh.
As is, not much to say about myself. I've decided that 'bisexual' was an easier description than having to get into the full details... I'm quite the odd man out in how my preferences are dictates. I happen to typically fall into whatever mood I happen to be at the time, indeed, myself and several of my friends (three of us have taken courses on psychology, one on his way to becoming a psychologist) tend to believe I have an odd offshoot of multiple personality disorder. Not quite dissociative as most shrinks define it, but my personality changes near completely on any given day with only a handful of interests the same. In all cases, memories remain the same (emotions and personal feelings on the matter can change drastically), some social interests remain the same (pnp and video gaming are constants), and a few more trivial matters tend to stay the same. I'll get into some of the problems this causes me in a bit.
In most cases, I happen to like both sexes and their parts equally in the sack. When it comes to appearance and builds, however, I most often tend to switch the masculine/effeminate requirements of females and males. Strong and muscled females who prefer the top position in the bedroom are almost always an instant 'win' in my book. For men I tend to enjoy the very effeminate bishounen-esque and femboy types, mostly prefer them to 'bottom' but occasionally like a vers one. I have yet to experience a Tg, but I'm a bit more attracted to ones that prefer to have a nice chest and the parts downstairs, effeminate face + well toned/muscled body = win for me. There are exceptions based on personality and mood, such as I will very rarely be attracted to a masculine male, but if he has soft enough features the muscles won't always be an instant turn off.
Of course, I'm also into "alternatives" beyond LGBT. Suffice to say to describe me as 'whipped' with my girlfriend is a very accurate description :p. I'll admit I'm rather open in the sexuality department, I'd even go so far to say as that I'm quite curious about various things that are taboo in most countries. I'm sure I don't have to say it but I've had too many misunderstandings about that statement not to; Necropehlia = *vomits at the thought and wonders why that is the first thing people jump to when hearing 'taboo'*...
Now, naturally this has caused me more than my fair share of relationship issues. Most of my early relationships (teen years) couldn't quite wrap their heads around the early eccentric insanity that is me. When I happened to come out to them about various things they tended to accept one, maybe two, but fled like I was infected with the bubonic plague when I got further into detail about the rest of it. Guess I happened to come across close minded people for personal relationships. On the other hand, vast majority of my gaming groups were A-Ok with what I did share (gender preferences, the rest has been left out due to the above, as a general rule). My last serious GF I had we were in a bit more open of a relationship, she got the vast majority of what I was about, but wound up running off with the 3rd part of our little triangle when he went into the military and she started blaming all of their problems on me (and has been phone and internet stalking me ever since I broke it off!). Luckily for me my current GF understands me and loves me for who I am, and puts up with all of my instability, despite being as straight as one can get lol. Unfortunately we still do not have a third, we're both still looking for that perfect third guy to add to our alternative lifestyle.
As for how this applies to gaming... It's given me some issues in gaming as well. Bear in mind I'm the kind of person, usually, who will state or explain something if asked, and/or if I feel it is necessary and not too much for people to handle. I hate secrets, but understand their usefulness given my life, lol. In most of my gaming groups, it never came up. In my most recent group, before my gf and I left because they blamed us for all of their problems (6 people living in a 2 bedroom apartment, many with extremely clashing personalities and egotism that rivals George Clooney and Mel Gibson combined, I'll say no more), they were all particularly dysfunctional enough, with a 'who gives a $#*%' way about such matters, that they really didn't give a damn. My CCGing group knew I was bi, and didn't have a problem. One of my most recent longest-running gaming groups, where I met probably my bestest of friends currently, the GM was entirely so homophobic that when he did remember I was bi (he was kinda clueless about almost everything), he took it out on my character more often than not.
So basically, I suppose my experience shows that however and whatever kinda person you are, you'll find folk of all kinds of acceptance. Just do whatever you feel happens to be right for you at the time....
Oh, and something I had nearly forgotten. When I was 14 I got chased by a bunch of neo-nazi skin heads for being "gay", and denied sanctuary by a local church. Just narrowly dodged getting beaten to within an inch of my life thanks to an old friend's brother driving up in his truck, but eh... Given that and all the horror stories I hear from LGBT folk about the religious turning the community away, I have a deep-seeded loathing of all organized religion...
In the interests of the inclusive nature of this thread ...
The vast majority of the people that I have shared a game table with over the years have been straight (as far as I am aware), but the guy who introduced me to Dungeons and Dragons back when I was about 11 or 12 is gay.
In a freak co-incidence, the kid that introduced me to RPG's was gay too!
He came out, we didn't care - we lived in Darlighurst which was the '80s hedonistic Gay Ground Zero', half the neighbourhood was gay.
My next group we'd go stay at our mates house(s), his parents were kinda cool but separated - his mum lived with her boyfriend, his dad lived with his boyfriend, and we got to stay and game at two awesome houses in a the exclusive neighourhood! happy days.
Next group also had a GM and player who were both gay, but closeted, which was kinda bemusing because as butch as they hammed up being we all totally knew they were gay. They felt deflated when they braved up and came out and we just sort of shrugged our shoulders and said we already knew. As a consolation prize we pointed out that we were happy they felt comfortable with us enough to be that open - I guess even though we wee all mates we all lived in a 'bad area' where anything anyone did taht was 'different' to the prevailing sub-cultures often meant violence.
And after leaving that group I ended up with another Gay GM, who was always trying to overcompensate and tell us about all the hot chicks he was totally pulling and how many women he had slept with and going on and on aond on and on... and... on....
That ended REALLY REALLY badly though - unlike the above examples...dark tale that one, dark tale.
Which led me to my last group with at least one gay guy in it (well Bi and confused), again in the closet, but thats because of a few unresolved issues.
TL:DR - There's quite a lot of gays playing RPG's, at least in Sydney Australia, and I have yet to meet a fellow gamer who really cares about it or sees it as noteworthy.
I am reading this thread and enjoying it but I feel slightly excluded because it is specifically for GLBT....
Anyway, sorry, I guess I just wish I was GLBorT......
^ ^
[edited for brevity]First, I am not laughing at you, I promise. But, bwahahaha! Wow. You made my day... I think that's the first 'I wish I were gay' I've ever heard.
Lord knows I wished I were straight quite a bit when I was coming to grips with my sexuality. So seeing the reverse is funny.
I probably shouldn't speak for everyone, but I'm gonna: welcome to the thread. I, personally, don't have any problems with straight people joining the discussion. (Especially not ones who wish they were glbt! Still grinning.)
EDIT: Ninja'd on the welcome, AND the amazement, dammit.
:)
I'm not a bisexual, though my best friend is. So for whatever it's worth: It seems like there's some kind of one drop rule to conceptions of sexuality. If you like the other sex, you must be straight. If you like the opposite, you must be gay. If you like both, you need to make up your mind. Even though the real world doesn't work like that.
I used to say that most people are probably to some degree bisexual, but it was pointed out to me that that's another way to trivialize and achieve invisibility: if everyone is bi, no one is bi as the distinction loses meaning.
I have been thinking about this since you posted it and some things others have said in the thread. Labels are useful as basic identifiers that paint broad strokes but in the end people seem to think them straight jackets that will define for you exactly what is happening in a person. My own thoughts on this are complicated and hard to express, but this is how I feel about it: My feelings surrounding labels as used to strictly define a person.
Edit: This particularly applies when you are applying labels to yourself.
A note to straight guys who have experienced people thinking they are gay; In all likelihood it prolly just means you are clean, polite and soft spoken, all positive qualities. What you might want to try is that the next time you are flirting with a girl at a party and she makes a comment about you being gay instead of being offended say: "Yes, I am gay. I have never been with a woman, though I'm curious about what it would be like." and just see what happens.
I've experienced girls saying it in a positive context and girls saying it in a negative context. It depends on the tone of voice and other things.
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Wow, Dogblade. Thank you for starting this thread, and thank you everyone else for posting in it.
One of things I always find interesting is the public perception that while bi women are everywhere, bi guys are must actually be gay dudes who are only halfway out of the closet--a stereotype held even by the LGBT community.
While I think bisexual men DO get dismissed even more than bisexual women, as a bisexual woman, I have also gotten, "You're gay but don't want to admit it" --- OR, as a bisexual woman in particular, I have gotten the, "Oh, you're straight but you want to be 'popular' with lesbian chic." Which, given where I grew up, that kind of "popularity" could have gotten my ass kicked, is really insulting.
There is a lot of bigotry against bisexuals in general, and what makes me very sad is outside of the homophobic nonsense I saw in high school, most of the discrimination I've experienced personally has been from gay people who go out of their way to make me feel like "I don't count" or "I'm faking it" or just generally speaking I don't belong amongst them and am not welcome amongst them. I've never gone to Pride weekend, for example, not because I'm not proud, but because I feel like I will be dismissed and mistreated by the participants themselves. I expect some level of ignorance from some (but certainly not all) straight people, but it's hurtful when purportedly the same group of people you want to work with for civil rights tell you exactly the thing they are fighting--that I am not allowed, basically, to love whom I love, and be considered part of society--it's just infuriating.
And as a bisexual woman I have to say it is also frustrating to be told I get a "pass" because straight people accept bi women more easily. Maybe they do, but I still have had to work for acceptance much of my life, and there are bi women who get mistreated just as many others do. This is absolutely not to discount others' experiences -- and again, I know bisexual men have to deal with this kind of bullshit often -- but I am just asking others not to discount mine.
Question for bisexual Paizonians...
I have heard it said among gay men and lesbians that one should not get "too attached" to a bisexual boyfriend/girlfriend, because when it comes time to "settle down", the bisexual person will do so with someone of the opposite sex to have children, blend into society, etc.
Is this something you have run into? I'll admit that all of the bisexual people I know have indeed married someone of the opposite sex, but my sample size is too small to make any generalities. Is there societal pressure in this regard? Does it make it difficult to have relationships with people of the same sex?
Just curious about other people's experiences.
Yes, this is something I have run into. And I have bisexual friends who married opposite sex partners who have been told that this means they are really straight, which is ridiculous.
The thing about being bisexual, for me, is, I don't give a crap about what's between your legs. Sure, different kinds of genitals can be fun and I am very fond of boobies, but when it comes down to who I fall in love with, gender just isn't a factor. If I marry someone, it's because I love them more than anything in the world, not because of what shape their nether regions take. It will certainly NOT be to "fit in" -- hell, there's a social pressure to be married, full stop, by my age, and I've ignored that as I haven't found the right person, I am certainly going to ignore any other factors of "normalcy" if I ever decide to spend my life with a domestic partner.
But the thing is -- I think when a bisexual person leaves one person for someone of a different sex, the person who is left is inclined to blame the easiest and most superficial factor. It's easier to comfort yourself by saying, "Oh, she just really wanted a guy and was just experimenting with me" than saying, "Gee, maybe I was an abusive b##&@ and didn't deserve her," for example.
I have had a lesbian tell me point blank that she would never date a bisexual woman because she "always would know there was something I couldn't give her." Which is such utter nonsense (but she was not a good person anyway).
ETA: I feel I ought to note of course not all homosexuals have treated me badly, quite the contrary. Nor have all people who've been jerks because of my sexuality been gay. Just there are some individuals I've had bad experiences with.
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Combine James Sutter's and Deathquaker's experiences with prejudice together and add how mean and bullying a Bi-Sexual man like I can be and you make an interesting observation: That @$$holes come in all orientations.
We really do have more in common with each other then may be readily apparent. The world is less about good guys and bad guys then it is about each of us just trying to make our way along the path of life. I ask everyone reading this to do your best to treat your fellow travelers with compassion, mercy and understanding as much as you can, what binds us together can be stronger than what pulls us apart if we let it.
A note to straight guys who have experienced people thinking they are gay; In all likelihood it prolly just means you are clean, polite and soft spoken, all positive qualities. What you might want to try is that the next time you are flirting with a girl at a party and she makes a comment about you being gay instead of being offended say: "Yes, I am gay. I have never been with a woman, though I'm curious about what it would be like." and just see what happens.I've experienced girls saying it in a positive context and girls saying it in a negative context. It depends on the tone of voice and other things.
If you are trying to start a meaningful relationship it is a bad idea to promote misunderstandings but if you are just trying to hook up(the usual default assumption for people at parties it seems) there are all sorts of silly (and some pretty douchey) ways of vastly increasing your chances of getting lucky. In this case I think most people would be honestly shocked how tempting a "gay virgin" is to a lot of party girls (assuming their initial response to thinking you are gay is curious as opposed to disgusted.) I’ve seen really effeminate guys do it again and again.
The most ridiculously over the top player I have ever met taught me a couple more general ways of approaching women that work really really well and one way of approaching gay men that is almost foolproof but I've learned from experience that it is knowledge that if brought into the light of day just leads to nothing good.
So long ago when I was a young buck interested mostly in drinking heavily and getting laid(two years ago?) An incredibly attractive blond girl with one of the most amazing bodies I’ve ever seen started hanging out with our extended group of friends and partying with us. Everyone wanted her, including me, and tried their best to seduce her but her anti-bullsh!t armor was the strongest I’ve ever encountered. She was truly a marvel, the most charming, attractive guys with the most clever approaches crashed and burned left and right, it was awesome and a common subject of conversation when us guys were hanging out alone.
One day a group of us were talking about her and this cousin of one of our friends was there and started asking questions about her. After a bit he made the claim: “Oh that’s an easy situation, I could seduce her in our first meeting, no problem.”
This kid was ridiculously short, overweight and had a strangely asymmetrical face. He was really, really, unattractive.
“You think you can succeed where I failed?” I inquired, gesturing to myself and then to him to illustrate the obvious difference in physical desirability.
“Absolutely.” He said simply.
I raised a mocking eyebrow. “Alright I tell you what; come party with us tonight and you can approach her. Prove that you’re not full of sh!t . The guys and I won’t get in your way, I promise.”
“I will.” He replied.
Fast forward to the evening. She’s sitting on a love seat with a Bud Light in her hand and this kid approaches her and strikes up a conversation. He proceeds to be charming and dynamic while acting like the most flamboyantly flaming gay man I’ve ever seen, a complete change from the reserved, thoughtful persona he had been presenting earlier. I know he is up to something, but I’m not sure what. I thought he might try the common and useful “gay virgin” tactic I’ve mentioned above(that had been tried and didn’t work on her) but I wasn’t sure so I watched closely.
I noticed that while he showed great interest in everything about her he was making it clear it wasn’t sexual. He told her that he liked her and that they should be “best friends” and she laughingly agreed As the night wore on I noticed he kept coming back to this point and referring to her as his best friend. My eyes narrowed in suspicion but I still couldn’t figure out what he was up to.
Then it happened.
He mentioned being best friends again and she replied that she had always wanted a gay best friend.
He froze, his eyes wide in hurt shock. “You…you think I’m gay?” He asked in a broken voice then burst into tears.
Startled she tried to walk back her statement but he gnashed his teeth and wailed about “Why would my best friend question my manhood like this, the pain, the pain!”
It sounds ridiculous but he was very convincing, I almost believed it myself even though I knew he was up to no good.
She tried many times to comfort him but he was inconsolable. Finally she stood and declared she would prove she knew he was not gay. She took him by the hand and led him into one of the bedrooms.
Two hours later they both emerged flushed, disheveled, and looking extremely satisfied.
After she left I approached him.
“You manipulative little troll, you tricked that poor girl!” I accused angrily.
“Yes.” He acknowledged, once more reserved and thoughtful.
“I should tear your heart out right here for the sake of women everywhere, so that you can never con an innocent girl like that again.” I threatened.
“I’m sure the way I treated her upsets you but in the end she left here satisfied, happy, and thinking she had performed a good deed, how would she have felt after you used her? But no, that’s not what is really bothering you. What’s torturing you now and what will keep you up through many sleepless nights to come is the following: I achieved in one night what you couldn’t in months of trying. I have, hands down and unequivocally, proved that I am your superior. With significantly less to work with I took the girl you desperately want and showed her the time of her life. I am better than you, we are not even in the same league.”
“I just…” I began than paused, choking on emotion. “…I just hate you so much!”
Reminds me of the line from Revenge of the nerds regarding sex with jocks vs sex with nerds...
Cunning. I worry about such situations, where low cunning succeeds so floridly over simple honesty. Not sure how I feel about the the situation.
On another note I read Death’s Heretic...
Hey, thank you! Glad you enjoyed it. :)
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A note to straight guys who have experienced people thinking they are gay; In all likelihood it prolly just means you are clean, polite and soft spoken, all positive qualities. What you might want to try is that the next time you are flirting with a girl at a party and she makes a comment about you being gay instead of being offended say: "Yes, I am gay. I have never been with a woman, though I'm curious about what it would be like." and just see what happens.
Actually, I'll admit to using a version of that tactic. In college, all the girls at the parties would cluster up for defense against the perceived predatory nature of the straight guys. But if you acted even slightly queer, that made you safe. Dance up on a few guys, and suddenly the girls are willing to talk to you, include you in the dance group, get to know you, etc. Of course, I was always honest about my orientation, but at the point at which they'd bothered talking to me, it was already clear that I wasn't a roofie-toting creepazoid, so they had nothing to be afraid of.
It wasn't until a few years later that I found myself engaging in some of the same behaviors *without* a female audience, and a little light bulb went off...
It wasn't until a few years later that I found myself engaging in some of the same behaviors *without* a female audience, and a little light bulb went off...
I had sexy fun time thoughts about guys exclusively for something like five or six years before my light bulb went off. "The fact that I can't get my mind off the swim team guys suggests that I'm gay! Why didn't I think of this earlier?!"
Cunning. I worry about such situations, where low cunning succeeds so floridly over simple honesty. Not sure how I feel about the the situation.
I feel I should inform you here that I only ever "promote lying" in the most joking fashion, though some of my humor may be lost in toneless text. Simple honesty is the way to go if you are trying to achieve a meaningful understanding and have a relationship with a person that lasts more than one night. It is weird though, when it comes to hook ups who ends up where often does seem to be a meritocracy of the tricksy.
Hey, thank you! Glad you enjoyed it. :)
On another note I read Death’s Heretic...
No problem, I look forward to seeing what you write in the future, you are an author whose works I will keep an eye out for.
A note to straight guys who have experienced people thinking they are gay; In all likelihood it prolly just means you are clean, polite and soft spoken, all positive qualities. What you might want to try is that the next time you are flirting with a girl at a party and she makes a comment about you being gay instead of being offended say: "Yes, I am gay. I have never been with a woman, though I'm curious about what it would be like." and just see what happens.Actually, I'll admit to using a version of that tactic. In college, all the girls at the parties would cluster up for defense against the perceived predatory nature of the straight guys. But if you acted even slightly queer, that made you safe. Dance up on a few guys, and suddenly the girls are willing to talk to you, include you in the dance group, get to know you, etc. Of course, I was always honest about my orientation, but at the point at which they'd bothered talking to me, it was already clear that I wasn't a roofie-toting creepazoid, so they had nothing to be afraid of.
This is actually a really good way of doing things, you're not actively lying while also managing to get your foot in the door(the hardest part about approaching women). You can take the newly formed relationships in any direction you want this way.
I had sexy fun time thoughts about guys exclusively for something like five or six years before my light bulb went off. "The fact that I can't get my mind off the swim team guys suggests that I'm gay! Why didn't I think of this earlier?!"
It wasn't until a few years later that I found myself engaging in some of the same behaviors *without* a female audience, and a little light bulb went off...
Hehe. One of my earliest experiences like this I can recall was on a hot summer day at the beach where I couldn't take my eyes off this really handsome, shirtless man sucking on one of these oversized Popsicles they used to sell there. He was sucking on it as hard as he could (presumably to eat it all before it melted) and I remember a powerful, tingly flush of heat fill my body as I watched him.