| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Their beards won't have grown out just yet, I think.
Mary Sue also had an article about the players guide.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not bearded female dwarves again...That never ends well.
If I were a woman, I'd still want a beard. Beards are cool.
So nobody is going to play female dwarves (who are already played rarely) except for a few guys who do it for chuckles.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I had a friend whose wife played a female dwarf called Usda Beef.
I had a friend whose wife played a female dwarf called Usda Beef.
ROTFL!!!!
Will there be a summary for those of us who could not attend? That was the panel I was most interested in.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks to everyone who came out to the Diversity in Gaming panel! It was a great discussion, as always, and I really appreciate folks bringing their insights. Without your feedback, it would be way harder for us to know how to improve. :)
So nobody is going to play female dwarves (who are already played rarely) except for a few guys who do it for chuckles.I play female dwarves. O_o I have at least one and I know Crystal has at least 1.
And would you be playing them if you had to be bearded female dwarves? I didn't say nobody was currently playing them (which your character would counter), but that they are currently played rarely (which your character is not exactly evidence against). Still I think they are played rarely and adding beards on them is just going to reduce them more (I was being hyperbolic when I said nobody but guys playing for chuckles, but I think it is going to be insanely small).
From my experience, people that want to play a female fall into three charcter camps: beautiful and graceful (play elf, half-elf, or human), petite and cute (gnome or halfling), or tough (half-orc or human). Playing a short, stocky, woman about as wide as she is tall just doesn't seem to appeal to many women, in my experience of course. Like I said, I could be wrong, but without some kind of evidence (say a % breakdown from the latest Con) I don't really think I am.
From my experience, people that want to play a female fall into three charcter camps: beautiful and graceful (play elf, half-elf, or human), petite and cute (gnome or halfling), or tough (half-orc or human). Playing a short, stocky, woman about as wide as she is tall just doesn't seem to appeal to many women, in my experience of course. Like I said, I could be wrong, but without some kind of evidence (say a % breakdown from the latest Con) I don't really think I am.
First, a bunch of anecdotes is not data. Second, you are really speaking in gross generalities. Third, there's a troubling level of disrespect in that statement (whether or not it was intentional).
I'm pretty sure that James Jacobs has said that female dwarves in Golarion don't have beards. And they don't in any artwork for PF that I've seen.
That said, I've seen female dwarves played at my table over the years, by both male and female players. It's not a common choice, but neither are gnomes or half-orcs (of either sex).
But I'm not sure what this has to do with the LGBT community. If we want to talk about the appropriateness of bearded dwarven women in game worlds, let's move it to a new thread.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What not to ask people.
Wow, that is pretty rude. I remember a time when if you wanted to become acquainted with someones genitals you would take them on a few dates first...
When I was married I got irritated when my wife would talk about my genitals to her friends. I was told I should be proud but I didn't want to share that with everyone. I can only imagine what trans people go through when they are reduced to their genitals by some dick.
What not to ask people.Wow, that is pretty rude. I remember a time when if you wanted to become acquainted with someones genitals you would take them on a few dates first...
Meh. Some people got laid on first dates since the dawn of time.
Christian Bookstore Battleground
By the looks of things, it will soon be only a minority fringe of society who oppose gay marriage.
ACLU opposed LGBT anti-discrimination law
Thing is, I can see their point. With the Hobby Lobby ruling and the way that law is worded, it could easily end up unenforceable just because of one judge's ruling.
Actually, the more I think about people's common attitude of forwardness in asking transgender folks about their genitals the more messed up I'm realizing that is.
I think the next time I see someone doing that to a transgender person I'm going to interrupt and start asking them about their genitals.
"So, Frank, how you doing? How's your penis? Describe it's shape and size? Does it work or do you have ED? You are getting older after all...Wait, Why are you calling me a freak? I thought this was the kinda thing you like talking about?!"
Here's an interesting spoken word performance.
I don't normally like spoken word performances but I think this one is relevant.
Actually, the more I think about people's common attitude of forwardness in asking transgender folks about their genitals the more messed up I'm realizing that is.
I think the next time I see someone doing that to a transgender person I'm going to interrupt and start asking them about their genitals.
"So, Frank, how you doing? How's your penis? Describe it's shape and size? Does it work or do you have ED? You are getting older after all...Wait, Why are you calling me a freak? I thought this was the kinda thing you like talking about?!"
OTOH, not that it's excusable or acceptable, but it's understandable I think.
People are curious about sex. And this is something new and strange to most people. It's not surprising that's where many people's minds go first. And they may think that because the trans* person has disclosed that part, they must be open to questions on the rest.
I suspect as trans people become more commonly visible, the social awareness will grow along with that and such invasive questions will grow rarer. And education that it actually is rude and invasive will definitely help.
I understand the curiosity but I'm confused as to why someone acknowledging they are a gender other than what their body may appear to be would instantly open a flood gate for the most intimate questions?
Why is education about whether such questions might be considered rude or invasive even required when if you asked the same people;"Would you ask a person you just met about their genitals and sex life or do you think they might think that rude and invasive?" They would (most likely) know the answer to that?
Actually, the more I think about people's common attitude of forwardness in asking transgender folks about their genitals the more messed up I'm realizing that is.
I think the next time I see someone doing that to a transgender person I'm going to interrupt and start asking them about their genitals.
"So, Frank, how you doing? How's your penis? Describe it's shape and size? Does it work or do you have ED? You are getting older after all...Wait, Why are you calling me a freak? I thought this was the kinda thing you like talking about?!"
OTOH, not that it's excusable or acceptable, but it's understandable I think.
People are curious about sex. And this is something new and strange to most people. It's not surprising that's where many people's minds go first. And they may think that because the trans* person has disclosed that part, they must be open to questions on the rest.
I suspect as trans people become more commonly visible, the social awareness will grow along with that and such invasive questions will grow rarer. And education that it actually is rude and invasive will definitely help.
I understand the curiosity but I'm confused as to why someone acknowledging they are a gender other than what their body may appear to be would instantly open a flood gate for the most intimate questions?
Why is education about whether such questions might be considered rude or invasive even required when if you asked the same people;"Would you ask a person you just met about their genitals and sex life or do you think they might think that rude and invasive?" They would (most likely) know the answer to that?
For the same reason that asking people how they came to understand that they are LGBT is typically not considered rude and invasive. It pretty much comes down to a lack of understanding perspective and people asking questions while trying to figure out that perspective. You would be surprised how often people have no clue about transgender life experiences; many times, people ask not because they are trying to be rude, but because they are trying to understand.
Unfortunately, that is not something that can be easily fixed through education; the problem is that the necessary life experience is missing and education cannot easily grant that. Well, that's technically wrong, but the easy ways of granting it tend to cause psychological damage, so it's pretty much correct.
However, educating people on better ways of seeking knowledge and that it's rude to ask would go a long way.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
ACLU opposed LGBT anti-discrimination law
Thing is, I can see their point. With the Hobby Lobby ruling and the way that law is worded, it could easily end up unenforceable just because of one judge's ruling.
The article headline is a little misleading, from what I know of what's going on. The opposition is not to the eventual law but the current form of the bill.
By the way, hey everyone. Have not been around much of late. Hope everyone's having a good summer (or other winter if you're in the southern hemisphere).
For the same reason that asking people how they came to understand that they are LGBT is typically not considered rude and invasive. It pretty much comes down to a lack of understanding perspective and people asking questions while trying to figure out that perspective. You would be surprised how often...
I dig it. Something for me to think about.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And Howdy KSF!
|
I dig it. Something for me to think about.For the same reason that asking people how they came to understand that they are LGBT is typically not considered rude and invasive. It pretty much comes down to a lack of understanding perspective and people asking questions while trying to figure out that perspective. You would be surprised how often...
To add to that, I think a lot of people look to LGBT people like we have transcended some fundamental awkwardness about sex because our openness on the subject of identity implies an openness on the subject of physicality and biology. A lot of straight people don't get that coming out doesn't make you less apprehensive about sex, just more honest about the partners we want. They think we suddenly have the zen of a sex positive mega-guru, when most of us still have all the hangups that everyone else does.
Hi btw, posted years ago, been lurking ever since.
So my appendix tried to murder me on Sunday, but I'm alive!
Anyway, the latest edition of the world's oldest table top RPG has some things to say on the topic of gender identity...is that something we're allowed to discuss on these boards, Crystal? Lissa? Because it struck me as interesting.
|
So my appendix tried to murder me on Sunday, but I'm alive!
Anyway, the latest edition of the world's oldest table top RPG has some things to say on the topic of gender identity...is that something we're allowed to discuss on these boards, Crystal? Lissa? Because it struck me as interesting.
Did you murder it back?
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Did you murder it back?So my appendix tried to murder me on Sunday, but I'm alive!
Anyway, the latest edition of the world's oldest table top RPG has some things to say on the topic of gender identity...is that something we're allowed to discuss on these boards, Crystal? Lissa? Because it struck me as interesting.
They pulled it out through my belly button and I surmise that they punched it!
Thankfully, they let me keep my table of contents.
To add to that, I think a lot of people look to LGBT people like we have transcended some fundamental awkwardness about sex because our openness on the subject of identity implies an openness on the subject of physicality and biology. A lot of straight people don't get that coming out doesn't make you less apprehensive about sex, just more honest about the partners we want. They think we suddenly have the zen of a sex positive mega-guru, when most of us still have all the hangups that everyone else does.
Hi btw, posted years ago, been lurking ever since.
Hey there! Yeah I had been thinking about that a bit. I also wonder if part of the willingness to talk sexually with a transgender person is that they are seen as 'exotic' and perhaps even more worldly and open simply by virtue of being an unknown factor to the person asking as opposed to just being joe regular from normal town who would like to keep their privates...well, private.
Actually, the more I think about people's common attitude of forwardness in asking transgender folks about their genitals the more messed up I'm realizing that is.
I think the next time I see someone doing that to a transgender person I'm going to interrupt and start asking them about their genitals.
"So, Frank, how you doing? How's your penis? Describe it's shape and size? Does it work or do you have ED? You are getting older after all...Wait, Why are you calling me a freak? I thought this was the kinda thing you like talking about?!"
OTOH, not that it's excusable or acceptable, but it's understandable I think.
People are curious about sex. And this is something new and strange to most people. It's not surprising that's where many people's minds go first. And they may think that because the trans* person has disclosed that part, they must be open to questions on the rest.
I suspect as trans people become more commonly visible, the social awareness will grow along with that and such invasive questions will grow rarer. And education that it actually is rude and invasive will definitely help.
It's entirely understandable once you comprehend that the person asking the question doesn't actually consider the trans* person they're asking to actually be, you know, a real person.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Did you murder it back?So my appendix tried to murder me on Sunday, but I'm alive!
Anyway, the latest edition of the world's oldest table top RPG has some things to say on the topic of gender identity...is that something we're allowed to discuss on these boards, Crystal? Lissa? Because it struck me as interesting.
They pulled it out through my belly button and I surmise that they punched it!
Thankfully, they let me keep my table of contents.
I'm glad they let you keep your table of contents. Otherwise, you'd never be able to find anything.
Seriously, I'm glad you're okay. And I'm sorry about the appendix.
Hey there! Yeah I had been thinking about that a bit. I also wonder if part of the willingness to talk sexually with a transgender person is that they are seen as 'exotic' and perhaps even more worldly and open simply by virtue of being an unknown factor to the person asking as opposed to just being joe regular from normal town who would like to keep their privates...well, private.
To add to that, I think a lot of people look to LGBT people like we have transcended some fundamental awkwardness about sex because our openness on the subject of identity implies an openness on the subject of physicality and biology. A lot of straight people don't get that coming out doesn't make you less apprehensive about sex, just more honest about the partners we want. They think we suddenly have the zen of a sex positive mega-guru, when most of us still have all the hangups that everyone else does.
Hi btw, posted years ago, been lurking ever since.
That's definitely a part of it, from what I've experienced. People are more likely to ask what they see as the outlying factor because, in their minds, the outlying factor is usually more likely to have an honest conversation about it.
Thing is, they're right. This thread aptly demonstrates that; where else would you have this honest of a discussion of gender issues, reproductive organs and how they do not have to match the mental set-up, how medicine interacts, and things like that? The problem is that those who do not know always take a bad approach when asking about it.
It's entirely understandable once you comprehend that the person asking the question doesn't actually consider the trans* person they're asking to actually be, you know, a real person.Actually, the more I think about people's common attitude of forwardness in asking transgender folks about their genitals the more messed up I'm realizing that is.
I think the next time I see someone doing that to a transgender person I'm going to interrupt and start asking them about their genitals.
"So, Frank, how you doing? How's your penis? Describe it's shape and size? Does it work or do you have ED? You are getting older after all...Wait, Why are you calling me a freak? I thought this was the kinda thing you like talking about?!"
OTOH, not that it's excusable or acceptable, but it's understandable I think.
People are curious about sex. And this is something new and strange to most people. It's not surprising that's where many people's minds go first. And they may think that because the trans* person has disclosed that part, they must be open to questions on the rest.
I suspect as trans people become more commonly visible, the social awareness will grow along with that and such invasive questions will grow rarer. And education that it actually is rude and invasive will definitely help.
I have to agree with thejeff's reply; typically, nine times out of ten, it's someone asking to understand. I've even had ministers ask awkward, invasive questions about my gender identity. Usually, it comes off rather creepy and uncomfortable at first, up until I realize that part of it is that they don't actually know the correct question to ask and so they're uncomfortable as well. A bit of advice on how to ask properly and a bit of frank discussion usually clears it up.
Can I also add that this attitude is unhelpful? It creates an "us vs. them" scenario that pretty much guarantees any acceptance they had for you has gone away.
I understand the curiosity but I'm confused as to why someone acknowledging they are a gender other than what their body may appear to be would instantly open a flood gate for the most intimate questions?
Why is education about whether such questions might be considered rude or invasive even required when if you asked the same people;"Would you ask a person you just met about their genitals and sex life or do you think they might think that rude and invasive?" They would (most likely) know the answer to that?
For the same reason that asking people how they came to understand that they are LGBT is typically not considered rude and invasive. It pretty much comes down to a lack of understanding perspective and people asking questions while trying to figure out that perspective. You would be surprised how often people have no clue about transgender life experiences; many times, people ask not because they are trying to be rude, but because they are trying to understand.
Unfortunately, that is not something that can be easily fixed through education; the problem is that the necessary life experience is missing and education cannot easily grant that. Well, that's technically wrong, but the easy ways of granting it tend to cause psychological damage, so it's pretty much correct.
However, educating people on better ways of seeking knowledge and that it's rude to ask would go a long way.
I think education, or more specifically just more cultural awareness of trans issues will help. It won't give people a deep understanding, but at least as much as they could get by asking the obvious invasive questions.
I've learned a lot by reading the discussion here and other similar places. Certainly nowhere near the same life experience as actually being trans, but hopefully enough to keep from being offensive.
I think the best we'll achieve is teaching people the correct questions to ask and what is not okay to ask. However, trying to teach people to understand is probably the most inherently unhelpful thing we can do. Let me explain:
In my time, I've talked to a number of men who've taken courses on women's studies, and a number of women who've tried to understand men through education about them. End of the day? Neither group walked away with any greater understanding of the other gender, but more than a few walked away more closed-minded as a result; they thought they understood the other gender and its issues, and therefor tended to be less likely to listen. This tendency is part of why there's not one, but three gender equality movements devoted to just the cisgenders at the moment; the one shouting loudest about gender equality at the moment is also the one that's the least educated about gender issues.
So, considering that cisgender issues and education about them only resulted in a massive, unhealing schism in the lobbying for gender equality... I don't really see that educating on equality for transgenders will actually do any good.
Basically, when people think they understand something, they tend to be less forgiving they tend to be of outlying factors and they are usually far less willing to consider outlying factors. You see that both on this thread and in the LGBT community (in particular, there's a lot of fighting between bisexuals and homosexuals).
Indeed.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So my appendix tried to murder me on Sunday, but I'm alive!
Gah! Been there, sounds like it was done and over with quickly for you (the best way to deal with wayward appendices).
Anyway, the latest edition of the world's oldest table top RPG has some things to say on the topic of gender identity...is that something we're allowed to discuss on these boards, Crystal? Lissa? Because it struck me as interesting.
Of course you can discuss it! Just don't drag in any edition war "my game is better than your game" stuff into it.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You can NEVER trust them. They are useless, dangerous and bring only problems. They demand that everyone should adapt to them, and ignore any sort of discourse and understanding. Only raw violence works. Complete excision. A final solution.
Appendixes. Simply can't trust them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Anyway, the latest edition of the world's oldest table top RPG has some things to say on the topic of gender identity...is that something we're allowed to discuss on these boards, Crystal? Lissa? Because it struck me as interesting.
Of course you can discuss it! Just don't drag in any edition war "my game is better than your game" stuff into it.
That's totally not my bag - different game systems for different folks, I say! ;)
Article here
I'm really happy that they're taking this step, and I love the call-out to bearded lady dwarves, but I'm less than pleased with the problematic wording of a "man trapped in a woman's body" (which I've come to understand is an offensive phrase, though I could be wrong).
Anyway, I'm not familiar with D&D (I only played 3.5 twice in college before discovering Pathfinder), is this new or have they handled gender like this in the past?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You can NEVER trust them. They are useless, dangerous and bring only problems. They demand that everyone should adapt to them, and ignore any sort of discourse and understanding. Only raw violence works. Complete excision. A final solution.
Appendixes. Simply can't trust them.
Uncomfortable and uncertain what questions to ask is different than assuming who you're talking to is required to divulge intimate details of their body and habits on demand. The latter assumes that your own curiosity is more important than their privacy or comfort, in a way that would not be assumed when talking to a percieved social equal.
Uncomfortable and uncertain what questions to ask is different than assuming who you're talking to is required to divulge intimate details of their body and habits on demand. The latter assumes that your own curiosity is more important than their privacy or comfort, in a way that would not be assumed when talking to a percieved social equal.
And how can you tell the difference from a single question? As thejeff says, if they keep asking, then it's obvious what their intent is and you are correct. But if they ask and you refuse to answer and they back off, then it is not a case of them thinking their curiosity is more important than your privacy; it is them simply seeking an answer and, in their discomfort with not knowing how to ask, simply asking a bad question.
People ask the dumbest of questions when they don't know the right question to ask. That is true of everything, from science to religion to transgender issues.
|
Assistant Software Developer
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm really happy that they're taking this step, and I love the call-out to bearded lady dwarves, but I'm less than pleased with the problematic wording of a "man trapped in a woman's body" (which I've come to understand is an offensive phrase, though I could be wrong).
Anyway, I'm not familiar with D&D (I only played 3.5 twice in college before discovering Pathfinder), is this new or have they handled gender like this in the past?
I'm pleased that they are making the effort and hope they keep it up. That wording is really problematic and honestly hearing it makes we want to scream a little. As far as I know, this is new, but I've not played a lot of 3.5 or 4th edition really. Most of my experience was in 2nd edition. We'll see if it stands the test of time. I really hope it does and I will make the assumption that they are open to constructive criticism on the subject as long is it's constructive. =)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Article here
I'm really happy that they're taking this step, and I love the call-out to bearded lady dwarves, but I'm less than pleased with the problematic wording of a "man trapped in a woman's body" (which I've come to understand is an offensive phrase, though I could be wrong).
Anyway, I'm not familiar with D&D (I only played 3.5 twice in college before discovering Pathfinder), is this new or have they handled gender like this in the past?
I'm the "KF" posting in the comments below the article, by the way.
As I say there, I did send Wizards a comment about the language via their customer service, saying the intent of the section is great, could they improve the language a bit. They responded right away and said they'd send it on to the devs. No idea if that'll have any impact (or if it's too late or too low a priority to do so).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmmm, even after thinking about it awhile I'm not to sure how I feel. On the one hand I don't want to tease someone for genuinely seeking to understand as seeking to understand your fellow humans is a trait I rank high on my 'awesome traits to have.' list but on the other hand asking those questions really do strike me as a implicit social denial of trans people being regular people instead of beings from another planet.
Bleh...I guess I should just choose the path of reasonable and kind speaking up when it happens, it's more constructive, and more fair as well seeing as I myself have a habit of often putting my foot in my mouth so hard it comes outta my butt and kicks the person behind me=)