Apparently I never dotted this? Fixed.
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All hail Mikaze! Disciple of Sutter! Oracle of the Dark Tapestry! Seer of that which lies beyond!
Seriously, it makes my heart glow to see stuff from different threads grow and feed off each other. Slowly morphing in a beautiful creation beyond anything our minds could have originally conceived. It calls to something within us...
Hmm ... Doting for continued interest and reading. :)
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I usually have an answer like, "Keep supporting the game and being awesome for playing Pathfinder," but now my answer has changed to, "Do not perpetuate the goofy typos!"(crosses fingers)
"Reigon"
XD
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Dradongs Demand has some cold hard facts.I like that typo in that context. :DHAHAHAHAAHH
Yeah. Typo.
"Cold" should have been "hot."
Well now I'm really unsettled! :O
This.
Is.
Man, I was trying to remember where I had heard that line before. :D
"This is necessary" feels like an appropriate mantra for one of these folks while doing horrible things to others.
"Reigon"
At least it wasn't on the cover, like the recent Resident Evil: Revelaitions for the Nintendo 3DS. :)
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See, I am loving the general discussion of the Dominion of the Black, but now I'm feeling myself drawn towards my favorite outsiders with the invocation of...
Man, I was trying to remember where I had heard that line before. :D
"This is necessary" feels like an appropriate mantra for one of these folks while doing horrible things to others.
...which now leads to the mental image of worship of Kyton Lords.
Though perhaps such might be a heresy within the Dominion, as they have a very real and unknowable (to non-Dominion beings?) power that guides their appendages and anatomy and aspirations of assimilation, whispered in every click of bone against metal, every muffled moan and scream cut short before the newly Converted tasted ultimate truth for the first time through lips no longer what they once were, through eyes rendered blind to the lies that once kept them from knowing their Masters' will, through sense they had never possessed before becoming part of the Dominion.
But for some, glimpses of a past stolen from the meat that once held their memories and their past and the minutiae that barely holds any meaning of a time that doesn't really matter any more...gives hints and flashes of inspiration, perhaps interpreted as what is, and what will shall be, and brings forth unbidden the visions of the fettered beings of splendor who seek perfection in the alteration, improvement, and transfiguration of the spirit through the flesh and the flesh of others. The new Convert might be especially zealous of such an interpretation as it both justifies and reinforces their new state of being in a way that, while no less horrifying, is in some way familiar, if not any particularly reassuring comfort.
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When I imagine the Dominion of Black, I think of combining Giger's artwork with the artwork from Tool's albums. They just seem to mesh so well...
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When I imagine the Dominion of Black, I think of combining Giger's artwork with the artwork from Tool's albums. They just seem to mesh so well...
*points back to response to Mikaze*
Great minds, et al.
Yes it was in response to that. I forgot to hit reply/quote. I also imagine Vudra's psychic mages meshing well with Tool's artwork.
Now I'm listening to the Tool secret track in 10,000 Days :)
As long as people aren't using Aroden as another messianic analog whistle-blower.
Besides, his name doesn't scan well with the song.
Plus, now I'm having the most awful mashup in my head of the Drowning Music from Sonic the Hedgehog crossed with That One Part of Ænema.
You know the one.
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...which now leads to the mental image of worship of Kyton Lords.
Though perhaps such might be a heresy within the Dominion, as they have a very real and unknowable (to non-Dominion beings?) power that guides their appendages and anatomy and aspirations of assimilation, whispered in every click of bone against metal, every muffled moan and scream cut short before the newly Converted tasted ultimate truth for the first time through lips no longer what they once were, through eyes rendered blind to the lies that once kept them from knowing their Masters' will, through sense they had never possessed before becoming part of the Dominion.
But for some, glimpses of a past stolen from the meat that once held their memories and their past and the minutiae that barely holds any meaning of a time that doesn't really matter any more...gives hints and flashes of inspiration, perhaps interpreted as what is, and what will shall be, and brings forth unbidden the visions of the fettered beings of splendor who seek perfection in the alteration, improvement, and transfiguration of the spirit through the flesh and the flesh of others. The new Convert might be especially zealous of such an interpretation as it both justifies and reinforces their new state of being in a way that, while no less horrifying, is in some way familiar, if not any particularly reassuring comfort.
I have to admit, before it maybe kinda got proven wrong, I really couldn't help but think of the Dominion of the Black, Zon-Kuthon, and Kytons all pulling from the same well. Like maybe whatever ZK encountered also had its way with these alien mortals as well, resulting in a Dominion that acted like Prime Material alien kytons.
It got to the point that I still don't know if certain songs from Celldweller's Wish Upon A Blackstar album are going to be my soundtrack for the Dominion or ZK/kytons if/when I get to run the campaigns that involve them heavily.
they move without a sound
and their eyes will paralyze who gazes into
they'll leave you gagged and bound
to the wreck of the wish they've granted you
there's no way to persuade
to give up their crusade
they've come to grant the wish
you should have never made
sing Hallelujah 'cause you can't change anything
they'll let you try
to reverse everything
don't waste your time
sing Hallelujah 'cause you can't change anything
The idea of ZK Dominion heretics is...man. That's a lot ot chew on. So many angles...
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and all of them sharp
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(this is all just fan stuff mind, especially with canon Dominion stuff on its way!)
Kinda. The parallels involving assimilation are the big thing, but with more focus on subsuming and absorbing the identities of others.
The Dominion feels like it would be cold iand clinical, but its pursuits would be based entirely around capturing the desires and passions of other species into itself. Like...the Dominion has a cold alien lust for our lusts, speaking in-setting. It's like they feel the need to experience certain things vicariously, so they turn us into living prosthetics or interface systems to do just that.
They probably wouldn't be as absolute on uniformity like the Borg, though a level of it happens with those they bring into their whole. Their works wind up looking like an insane mishmash of different species cultures and anatomy as they take all the parts they want and cut away the rest, and they build what they will from it. Where the Borg might have an absolute goal of complete assimilation, maybe the Dominion prefers to the stock replenish. We are their crops. We are the materiel that that they use to better themselves. Sometimes they "improve" upon us so that we better serve their purposes, generations down the line.
Little wonder that some of us wind up compromised even before infection, believing that to join the Dominion, even as a mere component in their ships or their bodies, is a form of divine ascension.
Maybe.
I'm really not sure, and I'm not sure whether or not a solid answer one way or another wouldn't diminish what makes them terrifying. I have to admit, I kind of hope we never learn the entire truth. I mean, when looking at some of H.R. Giger's work, some of the worst bits come from the mind racing to fill in the blanks to explain just what you're looking at. That's the big reason style-over-substance felt safer to me. :)
I guess if I had to sum up what a Giger-esque Dominion seems to be in my head, well....
These were people. Some were seduced into this fate. Some were forced. None of them had any idea what their ultimate fate would be. And they were turned into something terrible. It's uncertain just how much remains of their old nature or if they're completely monstrous, but they've obviously been warped into something still very much alive. And so many of them seem to have had their humanity stripped away. They've been made into machines, or simply just parts of machines. Sometimes they've been reduced to being simply parts of the decor. They're not mindless automatons. They are all, even the inanimate ones, fully aware. Fully conscious.
And they almost always seem content with their fate.
That's the part that really terrifies me. Not just the idea that these poor people are eternally suffering in some alien hell, but that they've been conditioned to accept it. Or even revel in it. Something did this to them, made them into that, and you can't tell if they could ever be restored to what they were before. What would do this? And why?
I think that's where some of the kyton parallels kick in as well.
Of course that's just one possible interpretation of a lot of Giger's work. That uncertainty and the blanks waiting to be filled by your own fears is one of his artwork's greatest strengths. Heck, the Darkseed series actually had some of the particularly famous figures from his works(like the "Lady's head wired to the machine thing") being benign.
I think it leads to the Dominion's creations winding up being both terrifying and tragic. And given what they've done to their victims, we're left uncertain on whether or not this was also done to them. And just how far back that cycle of suffering and madness goes.
It's like a terrible machine fueled by its own momentum. Something terrible started it and now it's operating under its own power. For who knows how long....
Maybe there's an overpowering loneliness driving it all. And the only cure is to gather a multitude unto itself. To become an amalgamation of many. But it's never enough. The many become one, or the many remain out on rocks in the cold void waiting for millenia, possibly eons, for their masters to finally arrive and take them into the whole. And all the while they watch and wait, inert and helpless, desperately hopeful and fearful of their ascension.
I guess the "I have no mouth and I must scream" factor plays into that as well. Actually, probably a lot. It's the same reason I'm both a fan and terrified of Wayne Barlowe's "immortal souls as bricks, mortar, and other building materials for the architecture of demons" vision of Hell.
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Maybe there's an overpowering loneliness driving it all. And the only cure is to gather a multitude unto itself. To become an amalgamation of many. But it's never enough.
Like a frustrated artist, in the attempt to capture beauty, they always end up creating nothing more than a sad parody of it, revealing more of their inner emptiness than the feeling they were trying to capture.
That's kind of neat.
Attempting to elevate themselves, they instead drag everyone down with them, like crabs in a bucket, or something out of Harrison Bergeron.
What are some monsters that are currently linked to the DoB? And in addition, what are some good ones to add into that list?
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Like a frustrated artist, in the attempt to capture beauty, they always end up creating nothing more than a sad parody of it, revealing more of their inner emptiness than the feeling they were trying to capture.
That's kind of neat.
Attempting to elevate themselves, they instead drag everyone down with them, like crabs in a bucket, or something out of Harrison Bergeron.
That put it a lot more concisely and effectively. :)
This could explain and/or lead to some severe Uncanny Valley stuff going on with anything they craft or convert to interact with others too.
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What are some monsters that are currently linked to the DoB? And in addition, what are some good ones to add into that list?
There's the Vespergaunts in Inner Sea Bestiary. I think they were said to have connections to the DoB, possibly being put to use by them, but IIRC they weren't actually part of the Dominion itself. (anyone have their ISB nearby?) They disintegrate the bodies of their victimes save for their central nervous system and eyes, which they absorb into themselves to add to their own.
I don't think anything has been printed on this yet, but James Jacobs said he liked the idea of the neh-thalggu having Dominion coonnections. If it happens, I'm really curious about whether it would be "standard" neh-thalggu or a variant. Given what they do and looking back at the Vespergaunts, there seems to be a theme forming.
(hmm...expanding the neh-thalggu lifecycle and adding more variants to the larger neh-thalggu "family" of creatures could be neat)
We've seen an image of one of their ships in Distant Worlds, but we still don't know exactly what those are...
And they almost always seem content with their fate.
That's the part that really terrifies me. Not just the idea that these poor people are eternally suffering in some alien hell, but that they've been conditioned to accept it. Or even revel in it. Something did this to them, made them into that, and you can't tell if they could ever be restored to what they were before. What would do this? And why?
Reminded me of Event Horizon...
<shiver>
And they almost always seem content with their fate.
That's the part that really terrifies me. Not just the idea that these poor people are eternally suffering in some alien hell, but that they've been conditioned to accept it. Or even revel in it. Something did this to them, made them into that, and you can't tell if they could ever be restored to what they were before. What would do this? And why?
Reminded me of Event Horizon...
<shiver>
Ugh, one of the most uncomfortable movies I've ever watched.
That's why I loved it.
Immediately after the movie, I had to walk around the parking lot talking it over with my friends, it freaked me out so much. But it was a good freaked out :)
It was the trying to undertand what wasso bad that it would warp those people so, that they would revel in the horrible things they were doing to themselves. Which is why that part from Mikaze reminded me of the movie.
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In Stargate: Atlantis, the Wraith have a whole bunch of types of technology which are essentially organically-based, can heal themselves, have limited energy production/efficiency, and based on digital data, processed almost like thought patterns. A ship can be grown from a seed, which infects a humanoid victim, using their own nervous system to grow, expand towards electro-magnetic fields (energy conduits), and protect itself from harm - this infection is an organic-metallic compound which begins soft and pliable, becomes tough like leather, and finally solidifies into a substance which is almost completely immune to high temperatures (often from entry into an atmosphere), solar radiation, and other harmful effects of the void of space. It also assimilates both organic and other materials as it grows, eventually becoming a "hive ship" with its own personality and 'designation.'
There is something VISCERAL, which is the key component of Giger's work, which makes it so personal and terrifying to empathize with. If DotB is anything like this, then Mikaze's ideas are definitely on the right track. It's funny how so much of the "critical analysis" of this subject seems to end up sounding more like dark poetry than anything else, as if the mortal mind is attempting to understand something so foreign and beyond measure that it can only define it in subtle, intuitive, adjectives and emotions.
Dotting.
Carry on!
-- C.
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It's funny how so much of the "critical analysis" of this subject seems to end up sounding more like dark poetry than anything else, as if the mortal mind is attempting to understand something so foreign and beyond measure that it can only define it in subtle, intuitive, adjectives and emotions.
Stare directly at the sun and you'll go blind. Handle radium with your bare hands and it will go badly for you.
Some things are safest studied through layers of obfuscation, for your own protection.
True names of demons, for instance. You don't just write them down in a bullet point list and leave them lying around for people to read and speak aloud. That way lies catastrophe. You weave them into codes and ciphers and layers of parable, so that they have to be teased out of the narrative and assembled meticulously by someone who really knows what they are doing, and will hopefully treat the final product with the respect it deserves...
Because demons and the Black have one thing in common. Stare too long at them, and they will notice and stare back.
And you don't want that.
On the notes about Kytons and the Zon-Kuthon/HPL/Dominion of the Black relation, one dungeon which has always really piqued my interest, and which I hope to use in my own campaign, is the Saffron House from Rule of Fear. The wording of the whole entry is VERY Lovecraftian: "Manor at the Edge of Madness" and so forth. Similarly, the choice of monsters seems to lean towards either the otherworldly (hounds of tindalos and shining children) or the exotic (juju zombies). On top of this all, the themes of the dungeon are pretty clearly drawn from Charlotte Perkins Gillman's The Yellow Wallpaper, a work which many of the early Cosmic Horror writers considered to be extremely influential on their work, most notably Robert W. Chambers' The King in Yellow.
With all of this Lovecraft abounding in the dungeon, then, it's very interesting that the Master of the Saffron House is a Kyton. I consider this to be an exemplary little morsel from the devs; a hint of associations that may or may not be there.
I'm loathe to completely excise Lovecraft from the Dominion of the Black, because contrary to the belief of many in this thread, I don't think that Lovecraft's works are necessarily played out; I just think that they have to be handled in a manner that is fundamentally very different from that which Pathfinder is constructed to present. I think that Lovecraft is at its best in Pathfinder when, rather than using just the surface elements of gugs or mi-go attacking the party (no offense to Greg A. Vaughan; I loved Wake of the Watcher), you can really dig in and find little blots and shadows of the Great Old Ones just beneath the surface, like a scab underneath a fingernail. I think that Pathfinder, in its nature as a very combat-happy gaming system, really devalues the truly lasting horror of creatures like the Star-spawn of Cthulhu or the Denizens of Leng by lumping them in with creatures like the Qlippoth. In my opinion, the best way to present Lovecraftian elements in the context of Pathfinder is to never allow the players to approach them head-on, but rather through endless layers of proxies which have their own interpretations, goals, and endgames, and of which the Dominion of the Black may very well be one.
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Reminded me of Event Horizon...
<shiver>
One of my favorite horror movies of all time. Absolutely gorgeous example of atmospheric horror and subtle lovecraftian influence.
It also helps that after leaving the theater I turned on the radio and the Prodigy song that was at the end of the movie... was on the radio at almost the exact point in the song that was playing when I left the movie theater. O.O
The Dominion feels like it would be cold iand clinical, but its pursuits would be based entirely around capturing the desires and passions of other species into itself. Like...the Dominion has a cold alien lust for our lusts, speaking in-setting. It's like they feel the need to experience certain things vicariously, so they turn us into living prosthetics or interface systems to do just that.
I went with a similar style of body horror when I described the Withered Court in Abaddon - buildings constructed out of mortal souls used as living, screaming bricks in structures grown more so than built. Equal parts Giger, Alien, 2e's Tower of Incarnate Pain, and my own background as a biologist.
The daemons (of Famine at least) are coming from a different perspective though I think from something like the Dominion. The daemons -hate- those mortal souls, and in their instance the hatred becomes a twisted obsession with those souls, what makes them work, and on some level more powerful daemons might be terribly, intimately familiar with the mortal condition even as it disgusts them. Yet they must understand what they hate (and for some of them, what they once were).
I'm sure that we could find parallels between kytons, the Dominion, and some of the daemons for sure. This of course has me thinking about what a kyton and a daemon would take about if they met, and just how badly that might end up for one or the other.
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Stuff like this makes me want to retcon so that my Golarion wasn't wiped out by a Xill invasion and a subsequent Elan* planetary eradication. Eh, easy enough to say Arch Golarion 2.0 branches off from 1.0 at the point where my group finished Carrion Crown book 3, but before the Xill invaded.
It also makes me want to pick up Distant Worlds.
(* Elan, a Psionic creature, are created from a base creature and reborn as an elan and are essentially borg in my Golarion cosmology. Thanks to a player of mine with a very creative imagination, they fly around in death stars assimilating planets. Golarion is too deity involved, so they just use it as a trash dump until the Xill took the place over, causing them to nuke the planet)
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I know Zon-Kuthon has no affiliation with the Dominion as far as his origins are concerned but what about Zon-Kuthon and the Kyton (sorry to be tangential)?
There appears to be a clear connection between the two, though never stated.
In my campaign, theologians debate these topics. Did Zon-Kuthon create the Kyton in his imagine? Were the Kyton divine beings loyal to Dou-Bral prior to his transformation and were corrupted by his prescience? Or did Dou-Bral find them at the edge of existence and was corrupted by their dark workings?
Personally, I've always thought Zon-Kuthon was the Kyton's greatest convert. He is beholden to them, yet they are not his master. Rather they see themselves as equals, linked by their common philosophy of pain, sorrow, and bleak enlightenment.
As to Zon-Kuthon's connection to the Dominion, perhaps their is one through the Kyton?
Let us say the assume that the Dark Tapestry is just what it claims to be. The nothingness between stars. Let us also assume that the edge of the universe functions the same in both worlds, and the further to the edge you travel, the great the distance between stars. Eventually, there is just nothingness. A void of light, sound, sensation, and matter. The Dark Tapestry.
Now imagine the hopelessness one would feel staring into that endless all-consuming nothingness. The nothingness, you would eventually imagine, is so much greater than the substance of the universe. The universe is finite, surrounded by an infinite absence. Thus, the universe must be insignificant in comparison to the void. A figment or light in a reality or darkness. It would eventually break anyone's spirit.
From Serenity: "They got out to the edge of the galaxy, to that place of nothin', and that's what they became."
Now, how did nothing turn Dou-Bral into Zon-Kuthon? Each deity represents an ideal, which they hold higher than themselves. Asmodeus esteems tyranny, Dou-Bral esteems beauty, so on. Just as mortals search for proofs to justify their faith, so to did the gods search the cosmos for evidence of these ideals. Dou-Bral sent his divine servants out to the farthest reaches of the universe to find true beauty. Eons later, the Kyton returned. They claimed that true beauty was born in pain. That one would understand beauty only in the moment that they experience true pain. Beauty was a selfish expression of meaning to temporarily dull the pointlessness of existence. They claimed they had gleamed this knowledge from the gods in the blackness between stars. Uncaring gods. Massive eternal gods. All-powerful gods. Gods of nothing. Horrified, enraged, and curious, Dou-Bral traveled himself into the Dark Tapestry, looking for these uncaring gods who twisted his servants. Countless centuries passed as Dou-Bral trekked deeper into oblivion. Finally, he realized the Kyton had simply gone mad. There was nothing out there. No truths. No beauty. No gods. Just oblivion. A vacuum absorbing all sensation and crushing it into nothing. Dou-Bral turned back, only to realize he had lost himself in the nothingness. He was alone. Frustration turned to fear. The nothingness was so massive, how could he hope to find the universe within it? He was lost and made utterly insignificant by the massiveness of the void. Then, it clicked. He was no different than the universe itself. It, like him, was a mere droplet in the ocean of black. Yet, why? Here was the truth. And what a beautiful truth it was, though he was not yet ready to understand. There were no gods in the Dark Tapestry, the Dark Tapestry was the god the Kyton rambled on about. Not a god though, something greater. An ideal. No, more than that. It was the reality behind the ideals which he has searched for. Life was alien to the void, and the void foreign to life. The two were in conflict. Though existence could be made meaningless by the void, experience allowed life to defy annihilation. Only vivid sensation could alleviate the numb oblivion. "Existence is such only to challenge the nothingness." This was the first truth. Isolated from everything, Dou-Bral tried to generate experiences. His mind had long forgotten the colors, smells, tastes, or sounds of others. But even in the grips of nothingness, he had himself. He talked and sang to himself. He smelled his flesh. He stared into his hands. But eventually, those sensations dulled and lost meaning. He screams. Gnash his teeth. Bit at himself. Clawed his flesh. Drew patterns with his blood across his lips. Each time the void returned, Dou-Bral ravaged himself further, enjoying the brief respite from nothingness a little more than the time before. "We are alone in oblivion, and we endure only through selfish experience." This was the second truth. Tearing at himself, Dou-Bral turned forever inward to endured the bleakness. He focused on the anger, the sorrow, and the grief of his existence. His physical, emotional, and spiritual pain gave him strength. He would not succumb to the void. Pain overcame the void. The void had no feeling. It could never understand pain. It was powerless against his pain. This was the final truth. "Pain was the most powerful force of all. Pain is a blessing. Through pain, we endure."
It was by chance that Dou-Bral noticed the faith glimmer of a star and escaped the endless prison of the Dark Tapestry. Yet, to him, it was sign of his victory. The void could not consume him. He had won. He had been rewarded. He had come to understand truth and now he was ready to share it with the world. The void must be challenged. Nihilism must be crushed. Existence must endure. Life is pain. Thus, Dou-Bral was gone, and Zon-Kuthon was born.
The Kyton, without Dou-Bral guidance, abandoned their station and former master, choosing to migrate along the lower planes refining and teaching their twisted philosophy. Zon-Kuthon cares little about their independence, for what use are servants when we are all alone? He needs nor craves no servants, only fellow comrades in truth. In this way, Zon-Kuthon views the Kyton as allies, though loss allies at best. And those Kyton who encounter their former master simply smile, proud in the knowledge that their guidance has converted a god to the true path.
Then what is the Dominion of the Black and who are the gods the follow?
As foolish mortals seek the truth in the darkness between stars just as the Kyton and Dou-Bral had before, they too fall victim to its crushing madness. They give the void divine purpose and prophetic goals. They give it traits and characteristics befitting its assumed power. They call it Yog-Sothoth, Nyarlathotep, and Azathoth. They describe it in abstracts as colours out of space, swirling bubbling masses, writhing black tentacles, eldritch aeons, or cyclopean geometry. But it is merely their tiny mind's trying to grapple with infinite nothing. They are broken body, mind, and soul by it. They are one of the Dominion of the Black. And their psychotic devotion to these non-existent gods is so strong it can generate divine magic, tapping into and simultaneously feeding the same well of faith that the Kyton and Zon-Kuthon unwittingly share.
Friedrich Nietzsche "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
There is nothing out there at the edge of existence. No power. No truth. No gods. No meaning. Just nothingness between stars. But that nothingness is so vast, so all-consuming, that those who confront it must contend it to be the greatest force encountered. It is only what we give it. Some call it The Uncaring God. Some call it the Philosophy of Pain. Some call it The Truth of All Things. All know it as The Dark Tapestry.
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I like the idea that Zon-Kuthon, the Dominion of the Black, the Great Old Ones, and perhaps others are not really all part of one big system. Instead, they each offer slightly different competing visions of what the blackness beyond the world represents.
Those visions and philosophies very often compete and clash. Perhaps the Dominion understands the nature of the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones very well -- and they oppose them for their own reasons. Zon-Kuthon as well has his own agenda, and may often oppose the Dominion's projects when they interfere with his own plans.
It would be really interesting to me to play a mythic-level evil campaign in which the party plays these various competing concerns against each other.
Creative Director
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Yeah; the Dominion of the Black and the Great Old Ones are from the far edges of the Material Plane... but they're still material plane creatures. We know what's beyond the edge of the Material Plane too... it's either the energy planes (if you're being dimensional), the ethereal plane (if you're being spiritual), or the Plane of Air (if you're being purely physical).
Zon-kuthon is in fact associated with the Plane of Shadow, so that COULD well be where he went to be transformed in the stories.
It's more likely, though, that he went even further. Remember, he was a full-fledged god before, and going into the Material Plane isn't all that "uncharted" for a deity. But going outside the Outer Sphere? That's uncharted for everything. Except what might live out there, of course... if there's an out there at all!
In any event, it's unlikely we'll be revealing the exact details of what transformed him into Zon-Kuthon anytime soon. It's not a "we'll never say" mystery on the level of the death of Aroden, but it's certainly one that if and when we do decide to explore it, it'll likely require something on the magnitude of an Adventure Path.
Zon-Kuthon is in fact associated with the Plane of Shadow, so that COULD well be where he went to be transformed in the stories.
It's more likely, though, that he went even further. Remember, he was a full-fledged god before, and going into the Material Plane isn't all that "uncharted" for a deity. But going outside the Outer Sphere? That's uncharted for everything. Except what might live out there, of course... if there's an out there at all!
Ah HA!
That gets back to my original question, are the Kyton and Zon-Kuthon connected?
Both are connected to the Plane of Shadows, both promote a similar philosophy, and both seem based on the Cenobites of Hellraiser/ Hellbound Hearts. I can't imagine that these two, who are so similar in appearance, conduct, motive, habitat, and origin, are wholly independent from one another. Even if one did not influence the other, something unites them.
Is there a connection? If so, how? If not, why? (both in lore and logistically)
As for my purposed origin, perhaps it was the blackness at the edge of the Plane of Shadows that Dou-Bral and the Kyton foolishly explored? Perhaps it is the exploration of any dark boundaries, be it on the material, outer, transitive, or elemental planes that drives beings mad?
Yes, the kytons are absolutely connected in some way to Zon-Kuthon. Whether or not he actually created them, or whether or not the kytons even existed before Zon-Kuthon existed, I don't think we've revealed.
That's awesome. Their connection has never been bluntly stated before. Thank you. I use the Kyton and Zon-Kuthon heavily in my current campaign. Hopefully, we'll learn more about their relationship as time goes on.
Does this connection mean a cleric of Zon-Kuthon would be more likely to summon or seek aid from a Kyton than a Devil?
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Creative Director
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Those visions and philosophies very often compete and clash. Perhaps the Dominion understands the nature of the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones very well -- and they oppose them for their own reasons.Eh, it's pretty well established that the Dominion of the Black serve the Outer Gods/Great Old Ones as heralds and emissaries. This is specifically revealed in the...
Vespergaunt entry in Inner Sea Bestiary
Dark Tapestry chapter in Distant Worlds
Gods of the Dark Tapestry sidebar in The Final Wish*Edit
Though this may change, who knows.
Actually...
The Dominion and the Great Old Ones are not the same, and the Dominion itself doesn't serve the Great Old Ones.
Vespergaunt: Some vespergaunts serve the Great Old Ones, but others serve the Dominion of the Black. A few might serve both.
Distant Worlds: The Dominion isn't specifically described as serving the Great Old Ones in this book as far as I know; they simply both occupy the Dark Tapestry.
The Final Wish: Tychilarius is not one of the Great Old Ones (as those entities CAN grant spells)—it is a unique creature allied with the Dominion of the Black. That's why Tychilarius isn't mentioned as being one of the Great Old Ones active on Golarion in Pathfinder #46.
The relationship between the Great Old Ones and the Dominion of the Black has been pretty vague and hazy though—it's not something we have really said a LOT about yet and have been deliberately coy on several matters. Furthermore, the organic way in which the lore regarding the Dark Tapestry has grown (a side-effect of us being super-tentative about introducing Lovecraft stuff into Golarion over the course of the first few years we were doing Pathfinder stuff) does mean there's some outdated or contradictory information out there.
Which is kind of okay with me, since the Dark Tapestry isn't really meant for sane minds to know.
If the Dominion and the Great Old Ones are not the same, how do they feel about one another? Allies? Enemies? Inconsequential?
Last Kyton question. How do Devils feel about Kyton? Its been stated that Kyton see themselves above the hierarchy of Hell, but nothing has really been said about the converse. And how does the Devils view of Kyton effect Cheliax and Nidel? Again, we know Nidel thinks of themselves as a coy spider bidding its time with the fat flies of Cheliax, but surely the infernal powers that be have their own concerns.
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Which is kind of okay with me, since the Dark Tapestry isn't really meant for sane minds to know.
But... you know about it... O_o
(i'm scared now.)
:p
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Creative Director
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If the Dominion and the Great Old Ones are not the same, how do they feel about one another? Allies? Enemies? Inconsequential?
Last Kyton question. How do Devils feel about Kyton? Its been stated that Kyton see themselves above the hierarchy of Hell, but nothing has really been said about the converse. And how does the Devils view of Kyton effect Cheliax and Nidel? Again, we know Nidel thinks of themselves as a coy spider bidding its time with the fat flies of Cheliax, but surely the infernal powers that be have their own concerns.
The Dominion sees the Great Old Ones as competition at best, but more likely tries to avoid them.
The Great Old Ones think of the Dominion the same way they think of humanity—inconsequential with some slight use as minions in certain cases for certain Great Old Ones.
Devils are not threatened by kytons, just as Cheliax is not threatened by Nidal. Both are wrong to think this way.
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Creative Director
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The quote I was really going from was from The Final Wish, regarding occupants of the Dark Tapestry: "...beings with malignant, incomprehensible intelligences rule the aether, singing their songs of madness and commanding a mysterious consortium of emissaries known as the Dominion of the Black." Of course, it isn't stated what those "malignant intelligences" are - they are never outright stated as being Great Old Ones. I just assumed they were. Problem with assuming...
The relationship between the Great Old Ones and the Dominion of the Black has been pretty vague and hazy though—it's not something we have really said a LOT about yet and have been deliberately coy on several matters.
Correct. That phrase does not say "Great Old Ones."
The Dominion of the Black has their own super powerful overlords who are not Great Old Ones. They may end up having similar themes, but the big difference is that the Dominion of the Black's "malignant, incomprehensible intelligences" are much more organized than the Great Old Ones, who generally do not work together, and generally do not take much time "interfacing" with their cultists.
If the Dominion and the Great Old Ones are not the same, how do they feel about one another? Allies? Enemies? Inconsequential?
Last Kyton question. How do Devils feel about Kyton? Its been stated that Kyton see themselves above the hierarchy of Hell, but nothing has really been said about the converse. And how does the Devils view of Kyton effect Cheliax and Nidel? Again, we know Nidel thinks of themselves as a coy spider bidding its time with the fat flies of Cheliax, but surely the infernal powers that be have their own concerns.
The Dominion sees the Great Old Ones as competition at best, but more likely tries to avoid them.
The Great Old Ones think of the Dominion the same way they think of humanity—inconsequential with some slight use as minions in certain cases for certain Great Old Ones.
Devils are not threatened by kytons, just as Cheliax is not threatened by Nidal. Both are wrong to think this way.
Great stuff. Thanks.
The Dominion of the Black has their own super powerful overlords who are not Great Old Ones. They may end up having similar themes, but the big difference is that the Dominion of the Black's "malignant, incomprehensible intelligences" are much more organized than the Great Old Ones, who generally do not work together, and generally do not take much time "interfacing" with their cultists.
I know that they're the protected IP of another company, but it would be really tempting in a homebrew to include mindflayers/illithids in the Dominion of the Black. Malignant, organised, and committed to expansion - that sounds about right.