Whips/Whip Daggers are a lot of fun to use with Duskblades and Maguses(Magi?). Here's a Shocking Grasp from 10'-15' away :)
That's true, Josh M., but losing out on the ability to make AoO's (or spending more feats to retain that ability) is kinda' costly.
That's true, Josh M., but losing out on the ability to make AoO's (or spending more feats to retain that ability) is kinda' costly.
How would you lose AoO's? If I recall most whip weapons allowed you to attack adjacent squares. Even if they didn't, then spiked gauntlets ftw?
That's true, Josh M., but losing out on the ability to make AoO's (or spending more feats to retain that ability) is kinda' costly.How would you lose AoO's? If I recall most whip weapons allowed you to attack adjacent squares. Even if they didn't, then spiked gauntlets ftw?
Yep, spiked gauntlets and similar backup weapons ought to do the trick. At that point you're only losing out on attack/damage potential and/or gold (since keeping two weapons up to par is more costly than maintaining one).
Isn't that too many feats for a 6th-level fighter? Even if you're human, you're not going to be able to also pick up iron will or lightning reflexes.
I was commenting for possible feats to grow into.
In any case, I think part of our disagreement stems from differing assumptions. You are operating under a lesser point buy, whereas I typically play under 25-point buy, where spreading abilities out (and still starting with a base 18) isn't considered all that costly.
The fact remains the same. 25 point buy just means I get to also have a better Con, Wis, Int, etc. I do base my examples on 15 PB because that is standard for the game, so unless anyone requests or specifies otherwise (and they didn't) I assume the standard as is expected in such discussions.
What's more, I typically build for the long-term, sometimes only getting the really awesome benefits at higher level. Delayed gratification and all that. You obviously build towards more immediate benefits.
What may surprise you is my suggestions are all built with long term in mind. Notice I included final ability scores as well, as well as how to build for them? Celestial Plate Mail + Armor Training IV + Armored Kilt means having +15 Armor with +10 Max Dex and basically no check penalty (Fighter love, finally). I'll have plenty for my +8 Dex modifier. The only difference between our builds is 2 points of Dex. You're looking at 10% more avoidance. But doing so, you're wasting at least 2 feats - potentially 3 - and then claiming greater versatility and so forth; but you haven't shown how you are doing that, and making up for the drawbacks.
I don't believe either of us are wrong, or that either of our builds are superior to the other. It's simply different play/build styles.
I won't say either of us are wrong. I would say I'd like to see you show me. As I've asked you to do last time. Please show me.
*bump* Err, I'm still kind of hoping to see the mechanics behind your Fighter, Ravingdork; since I'd like to see something that makes grand use of the spiked chain and makes it work as awesome as you describe. Won't you show me?
A dockside brawler, rough and ready (prof: sailor or craft:rope), chain fighter half orc fighter could have +1 to hit and to damage with him bludgeoning spike chain (a rope, with a knot) if he takes equipment trick: rope... but i'm not sure you could get a magic rope.
I wonder if i can flurry it as a empty hand monk, but if it counts, heck you could flurry it as whip and spiked chain.
Busy with real life right now. Also, never said it was awesome. Only versatile and viable.
Busy with real life right now. Also, never said it was awesome. Only versatile and viable.Actually you said
Other guys might be able to do these things too, but they can't do ALL OF THEM as well as I can. I'm versatile. They are not.
I'd still like to see your build, however. I'm happy to check in from time to time, for when you get a moment you're not too busy.
Doing up the prep for a new game, and the ol' 3.5 whip dagger has gone into the typical weapons list.
Now I've got to work out which faction commonly uses them? Horsemen? :D
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There should be a whip-halberd so I can get more reach on my reach.
If only there was someone who could put a whip on your whip, so you have reach while you reach...
|
There should be a whip-halberd so I can get more reach on my reach.If only there was someone who could put a whip on your whip, so you have reach while you reach...
Perhaps tying an improved familiar to the end of your first whip, and then giving *it* a whip-dagger could work here. That's like 20 feet of reach.
You could also try arguing that the unfurling of your whip familiar is really a move action, since he's doing the actual attack, and get another attack out of it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I believe that the standard Whip Familiar choice is the yo-yo dog.
Great, now whip-doggers are nerfed too.
They where erratta'd into whippets.
There should be a whip-halberd so I can get more reach on my reach.
Awlpike man. 15 reach. Some pikes even were 20 foot long.
Currently working on revising the weapon list for my game. All weapons come with special abilities and the whip dagger is pretty tricky, but low on damage. Axes are different to maces, which are different to swords, spears, flails, etc.
I much prefer this method of handling weapons.
Agreed. Kirthfinder's method is great. Has Kirth decided what elements of his work will be OGL? Asking 'cause I'd like to gank his weapon system. I know you two are usually all about Kirthfinder, so I figured you might know and be able to save me the trouble of fiddling with PMs? :P
Otherwise, I could always PM him (lazy though I be).
|
If it's not called out as coming from a published book, it's free to use. He made a pretty thorough effort to annotate content from published books.
The weapon system, as far as I know, is completely open.
Warning: I'm talking completely from my own view, and may be horribly wrong. PMing Kirth directly may result in conflicting reports. Use as directed.
If it's not called out as coming from a published book, it's free to use. He made a pretty thorough effort to annotate content from published books.
The weapon system, as far as I know, is completely open.
Spiffy. I knew anything that was sourced from non-OGL material was of course closed; but I didn't wanna gank any of his stuff rudely. I will formally ask permission for different bits out of respect as I add them. I'm (very slowly) reworking D&D 3.0/3.5/PF OGL material into a system for my own use (been a little less enamored with some official things lately). Since Kirth's weapon system reminds me of what I was attempting with the firearms rules in my gunslinger writeup, only even better, it would be nice to add into my core.
*is curious*
I much prefer this method of handling weapons.
Wow, that's seriously incredible. I'm awestruck.
Ahiel, the spiked chain is the only weapon in the game with the disarm and trip properties that can be finessed and STILL DEAL decent damage (every other finessible weapon out there with the disarm and trip properties does far less damage, generally due to being light).
This makes it an ideal weapon for a trick fighter with high Dexterity. With Weapon Finesse and the Agile weapon property he ends up just as good as a strength-based fighter in terms of ability to hit, deal damage, or make use of combat maneuvers, but due to his small investment (two feats and a weapon property) he also has higher AC, higher touch AC, and Reflex saves--and he is also less MAD to boot!
It still may not be better than your fighter, but I'm willing to bet he will easily be on par. That's one of the things I like about Pathfinder, there are so many ways to make a good character whether it's a strong man or fast as lightning duelist.
Not sure if its been mentioned yet but you add enhancement bonuses of weapons and any associated feats when using a weapon with a maneuver as its special. A +5 spiked chain with weapon focus will add an additional +6 to trip attempts. Add in the property (agile, I think?) that doubles a weapons enhancement bonus for maneuvers, and you quickly pull away in numbers from someone not using a special property weapon. A +5 longsword, for example, won't do this.
Likewise, with the addition of greater whip mastery allowing whips to grapple, with greater grapple making it a move action you could grapple two people at once, since a whip's grapple rules state you only need one free hand. You could also apply affects like chokehold or whatever, from reach.
Perhaps these specialized weapons need more "mastery" feats that allow additional tricks like this with proper investment.
So you are contending that one can not trip with any weapon but a trip weapon.Not sure if its been mentioned yet but you add enhancement bonuses of weapons and any associated feats when using a weapon with a maneuver as its special. A +5 spiked chain with weapon focus will add an additional +6 to trip attempts. Add in the property (agile, I think?) that doubles a weapons enhancement bonus for maneuvers, and you quickly pull away in numbers from someone not using a special property weapon. A +5 longsword, for example, won't do this.
Likewise, with the addition of greater whip mastery allowing whips to grapple, with greater grapple making it a move action you could grapple two people at once, since a whip's grapple rules state you only need one free hand. You could also apply affects like chokehold or whatever, from reach.
Perhaps these specialized weapons need more "mastery" feats that allow additional tricks like this with proper investment.
No... just without the trip properties you don't count the weapon related bonuses on your trip attempt.
Perhaps I have missed an errata or some such but without that I see no problem with applying all modifiers to the weapon even if not a trip weapon.
You did miss a FAQ/Errata... and then I missed the update to that FAQ/Errata finally d20pfsrd.com also failed to update their FAQ/Errata sidebar on the Trip weapon property... so all around it's a super multi-goblin cluster gnaw.
Here is a link to the confusing (and now incorrect) d20pfsrd.com page (see the sidebar) that says:
"For example, you'd add the enhancement bonus from a +5 whip to your trip combat maneuver roll because a whip is a trip weapon. You wouldn't add the enhancement bonus from a +5 longsword to your trip combat maneuver roll because a longsword is not a trip weapon. In effect, there's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a +5 longsword because the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt."
BUT that no longer applies as FAQ it was based on has been updated here based on this blog entry
So everyone who is arguing that only trip weapons can count their bonuses (like I was) are now wrong but understandably so as things have changed on us but popular resources haven't changed to update the shift.
TLDR Version: Yes, you now count your weapon bonuses on Trip/Disarm/Sunder checks. (But you only count them on dragging and repositioning if the weapon does have the Trip Feature...)
Well, that's interresting. So they just gave everyone trip/sunder/disarm but then one-upped them on allowing trip weapons with the newer added maneuvers.
Still makes whips the only ones that get to add bonuses to grapple.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ahiel, the spiked chain is the only weapon in the game with the disarm and trip properties that can be finessed and STILL DEAL decent damage (every other finessible weapon out there with the disarm and trip properties does far less damage, generally due to being light).
This makes it an ideal weapon for a trick fighter with high Dexterity. With Weapon Finesse and the Agile weapon property he ends up just as good as a strength-based fighter in terms of ability to hit, deal damage, or make use of combat maneuvers, but due to his small investment (two feats and a weapon property) he also has higher AC, higher touch AC, and Reflex saves--and he is also less MAD to boot!
It still may not be better than your fighter, but I'm willing to bet he will easily be on par. That's one of the things I like about Pathfinder, there are so many ways to make a good character whether it's a strong man or fast as lightning duelist.
But pirahna strike exists. Power Attack isn't just bad for finesse fighters but actively worse than an option presented for them.
When a single weapon in it's class becomes the defacto choice of just about every player out there who can qualify for it. That's a sign that there just may be something wrong with it balance wise. There wouldn't be so much griping about the spiked chain if what I said wasn't true.Spiked chain and whip dagger were nerfed because they were considered ridiculous by James Jacobs. He said it himself.
I stick by the 3.5 rules on them.
There is something wrong balance wise. All of the other exotic weapons were too weak.
Piranha Strike only works for light weapons, non finessible ones, and does strictly less damage than Power Attack does.