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I know there is a world of difference in PFS between mini-maxed characters and more "regular" characters. However, I find that my regular characters are often overshadowed in many combats by animal companions!
Given point build limitations, and the low NPC quality of many PFS encounters, the animal companions are nearly as effective as a PC.
I'm wondering what possible solutions people have considered other than outright banning animal companions from PFS. I mean, they banned one of my favorite mechanisms: item creation. That's fine, but druids and cavaliers still get their super pets? Any ideas?
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Well Cavaliers typically can't use their mounts in most scenarios do to size. And the animal companions only seem to be better up to about 4th or 5th level when the PC's start getting better. That's largely due to the animal companions starting with 2 hit dice typically.
You could always create a high dex guy with a high initiative modifier and high perception so that you always go in the surprise round and always go first. That way you get to go before the animal companions do.
But banning them is not the answer.
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My thought: no, they shouldn't be banned, but players with strong combat options should be aware of how these fit into the dynamics of the table, the fun and goals of other players, and the degree to which they may overshadowing others if employing their most effective options.
PFS removes item creation because it creates problems in an organized play environment due to the nature of item creation and the need for long term GM adjudication. Animal companions do not provide such problems; they reflect the game as a whole. If anything, animal companions are more restricted by choice, elements of control, and equipage than in home games.
If the animal companions really are as powerful, or more powerful, than the PCs, then the GM should have the NPCs targetting them first. Maybe a few near-death experiences for the critters will cause the players of those PCS to think twice before just blindly throwing their animals into battle. Plus, it would make it easier to see who the jerk players are who treat ACs and pets as nothing more than cannon fodder.
Then something is up.
With my ranger, (before my wolf died), my ranger still did more damage with Two-weapon fighting than my wolf, and had a higher to hit as well. Plus he has four attacks of 1d10+3, 1d10+3, 1d4+1d6+1, and 1d4+1d6+1. The wolf only has +6 and 1d6+3. (note: don't have boon companion.)
With other characters, most PCs still did more than their animal companions, except for falcon rangers, whom did about as much as their animal companions.
I find the summoner's eidolon much more powerful than animal companions, but that's another topic entirely.
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The animal companion just seems to be awful strong for a "class feature" of a full-powered caster. The eidolon I expect to be strong, because the summoner is built around the thing.
Admittedly, my PFS character is only level 4. But in the 10 adventures I have played in, the various GMs eventually resort to trying to target the druid's cat, but the NPCs just miss most of the time. I know the cat is getting extra armor from somewhere that is not available to the PCs. I guess its a feat. It's just very frustrating.
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Most choices for animal companions get some Natural Armor, so that may be what is making you miss.
As far as being as being a full caster, yes, a Druid is one, but they dont get as many spells per day as a Cleric or Wizard, and their selection of spells seems to have a more narrow focus.
As others have said, the animal companion becomes less of a big deal the higher of level you become, unless the owner is dumping everything they can into it, but that hampers the owner itself.
Make sure to make the Druid roll their Handle Animal check. Sooner or later, theyll miss the roll and wont be able to tell it what to do.
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No one ever bothers with that in the PFS society games I play. The animal just runs around like an extra PC. I'm not the GM usually, so I can't control this. I just sit and watch the druid wipe everything up with her cat buddy. The druid in question has some kind of totem trick, so between the druid and the cat, they are getting six swings a turn, usually with flanking. There is no point for me to even bother rolling at that point with my singular attack.
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A lot of GMs ignore Handle Animal checks because they don't understand them. But, in their defense, with a Cha 10 and 2 ranks, they have +9 and it's a non-issue, if the animal is not wounded, to hit the DC 10 needed to command trained tricks. (+2 ranks, +3 class skill, +4 class ability).
Cats get a lot of attacks, and even at 5th level, generally have AC21 or higher (10 base, +3 dex, +3 nat, +5 armor with +1 mithral chain shirt) with no penalty to attack. This jumps to AC 23 at 6th, More armor than that usually requires the investment of money for armor or amulet of natural armor, buffs such as barkskin, or feats for medium or heavier armor proficiency else the beast gets penalties on attack.
David, you might be experiencing a bit of being the little guy at the table, if I'm reading between the lines. Tier 1-5 adventures are limited to a 5th level druid, but Tier 3-7 and 1-7 might have you at a table with a 7th level druid. If that isn't the case, it might be worth someone having a conversation with the player about sharing the combat spotlight and breaking out optimal play options only when needed.
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Actually, I'm playing a cleric. However, I'm also posting on behalf of some of the various players I have seen that were dismayed at being overshadowed by the druid. Playing a cleric, I kind of expect to be the little guy, but I saw a magus, fighter, and a ranger all humbled by the damage output of this druid. In fact, the only characters I have seen that can keep up with this character are mini-maxed characters sporting multiple "7's" that I prefer not to create.
I'm not trying to be a hater here. I really like the druid skill set as a whole. I just find an animal companion that scales fairly well just seems to be a bit over the top as "class feature".
Those AC values that Howie23 was so kind to provide are damn hard for the run-of-mill NPC in a PFS module to hit. This makes the animal companion a sort "fire-and-forget" or untouchable flanker in the case of the totem druid.
There are certainly builds that someone can use that essentially break PFS modules. It just seems that animal companions seem to be leaning that way without the need for the actual druid to do any mini-maxing at all. Ie, almost two characters in one.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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I know I tend to not focus on my wife's animal companion when I GM (she's the only member of our group with an AC) mainly because I know what tricks it can do since I helped her create and level it.
Now, if someone else brings an AC to the table, I'd make sure to look over the char and note what tricks it knows. The all important one is that second attack trick. Lots of players don't realize that AC's won't attack everything without spending a second trick to train them to do so.
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I tend to play my baddies smart. If there's an AC and some wolves show up, if it's close by they get on it. If there's some humanoids (or intelligent whatevers), they'll realize that the pet is moving in sequence with whoever and assume its an AC of some sort (or eidolon). And practically everyone knows to "not focus the pet" of any "hunter" type class.
As for if they're more powerful than a "non min-maxed PC," its tough. You can build some really cool pets if you have an AC or equivalent class feature -- but that's more or less what your class is about. Without your AC (or a replacement feature), you're weaker than X (fighters for rangers, clerics for druids, wizards for eid. summoners).
I think any power difference is pretty negligible, and that if we wanted to talk power differences in Pathfinder, the existence of ACs would be waaaay low on my list. IMHO.
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Another idea would be to actually just stand aside. Maybe have your character buy some nice cigars to smoke while the druid does his thing. Just stand in the back, lean against the wall, and enjoy the fact that you're not expending any resources. Heck, you don't even need to heal him, as he can use a wand of CLW all on his own.
Just let him hand you free gold and XP for a while and see what happens (especially if the whole table does the same thing).
Playing a cleric, I kind of expect to be the little guy, but I saw a magus, fighter, and a ranger all humbled by the damage output of this druid. In fact, the only characters I have seen that can keep up with this character are mini-maxed characters sporting multiple "7's" that I prefer not to create.
Again, as mentioned earlier, they are doing something wrong.
My ranger isn't even min maxed, and he still does a lot with Two weapon fighting. He's only got a +2 to strength, and does not have weapon focus nor weapon finesse.
Fighters could be a similar case. And as someone that plays a magus, they SHOULD be doing a load of damage with Shocking Grasp at later levels (my magus does 5d6+6 damage at level 4 with 18-20 crit range. At later levels, she'll have intensified shocking grasp, doing about 11d6+12 at level 10, critting on a 15-20.)
With further thoughts, ACs are strong initially, but the power curve drops as you get into further levels, when PCs have the chance to do 4 attacks.
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Fact is that you can always tell players that you refuse to play with them or just tell them to "chill" with all the damage output. Getting overshadowed just blows seriously..
Other then that, what Jiggy said. Heck I didn't waste almost single resource while our summoner did 85% of everything in combat. Just stand a side, smoke a cigar, if he asks why aren't you participating say you don't have to, maybe he realizies it.
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Maybe a few near-death experiences for the critters will cause the players of those PCS to think twice before just blindly throwing their animals into battle.
Really? It would probably make me glad that the critter gave up his life so that a PC could survive.
At a table when I was playing my summoner (under Kyle Baird, no less!), my eidolon fell prey to a trap and was slain. Folks at the table seemed ready to offer condolences, until I pointed out "glad it was only my class feature, instead of one of us!"
Sure, an animal companion can't just be called back the next day as though nothing had happened, so there is some loss there that could be greater or lesser based on your roleplaying style, but I don't think the lesson learned would be "don't put the animal companion into combat."
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Having a level 10 melee based druid, I can tell you for a fact that they scale down a bit later on. They are fairly balanced well, and it shows later on. Being on the front line means taking a lot of hits, and most companions that do a lot of damage don't have a huge constitution. My companion dies about have way through about a third of the scenarios. Those 63 hit points never go far enough.
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The circle-of-life aspect of druids means that animal companions are there to be used up as the weapons of nature against (whatever). Dead ACs are not bad roleplay and not something to inveigle against. That's why they have such a low cost of replacement per the CRB.
(Note that I hate the higher-cost-of-training vision of ACs and especially the int-3-doesn't-make-you-a-magical-beast rule change we're using in PFS...)
I totally disagree. Druids are not dispassionate animal handlers. They create a very real spiritual bond with their animal companion (which is why they call it companion, instead of slave, circus animal, or pet). To dispassionately throw their animals into danger, time after time, without thinking of the consequences because, "oh, I can just get another cheaply" is a very meta-gamey way to look at it.
Additionally, the int-3-doesn't-make-you-a-magical-beast rule was a rule clarification by Pathfinder in general. Not just for PFS.
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Animal companions are like everything else, sometimes you need to reign it in so that the other people at the table can play too.
If it's a full table consider leaving your animal companion at home or just not bring it up to the front line.
I agree with Feral 100%. The main thing is to remember rule zero:
Don't be a jerk.
The problem here isn't with the character, it's the player.
If you have a character that overshadows everyone else in the party, it's time to reign it in. It doesn't matter if that character is a druid with an animal companion, or a magus doing ridiculous damage with shocking grasp, or whatever. Let everyone else play too.
There's nothing wrong with having a powerful character, and many people get great enjoyment out of finding interesting rule combinations that can make some pretty surprising things. The trick is to "play down" to the level of your party (or even the level of the scenario in some cases), and then pull that awesome trick out of your hat when it's needed most. Think of Inigo Montoya from "The Princess Bride".
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Worst case scenario , mother nature wouldn't like how you treat your "friends". If you ask me atonement might be needed if you switch your dead pets to much.
Yeah, this has never been correct. The animal companion is there to fight with you. If it dies, you might mourn for it, but you're certainly not going to never get another animal companion.
Showing reverence for nature does not ever mean "must not put animal companion in danger".
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I disagree... you can still make an optimised character, just dont use it optimally if you are playing in an easy scenario where you are taking ALL the spotlight from the other players.
There is something to be said for letting others shine and giving them a moment in the sun. I've done that before.
However, I totally disagree that you should play your character sub-optimally. That is meta-gaming (although not as egregious as doing so to gain a benefit) and for me actually breaks verisimilitude should anyone do this.
However, having a trip monster and choosing instead to bash for 20 points of damage isn't really making a sub-optimal choice. You are still crushing the badguy.
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you can still make an optimised character, just dont use it optimally if you are playing in an easy scenario where you are taking ALL the spotlight from the other players.
I agree with this. All I was saying was that it's unrelated to the notion of "Roleplay versus Rollplay".
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I can live with that.
I guess I'm just using observations from my own lodge, where the players who have a habit of 'not playing well with others' (very small minority) usually are the power gamers and optimisers. This may have exaggerated my correlation of optimisers with Role vs Roll ... please forgive me.
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Worst case scenario , mother nature wouldn't like how you treat your "friends". If you ask me atonement might be needed if you switch your dead pets to much.
This is not correct. The animal companion is there to fight with you. If it dies, you might mourn for it, but you're certainly not going to never get another animal companion.
Showing reverence for nature does not ever mean "must not put animal companion in danger", and forcing an atonement on a player for using his class features is not appropriate.
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Worst case scenario , mother nature wouldn't like how you treat your "friends". If you ask me atonement might be needed if you switch your dead pets to much.This is not correct. The animal companion is there to fight with you. If it dies, you might mourn for it, but you're certainly not going to never get another animal companion.
Showing reverence for nature does not ever mean "must not put animal companion in danger", and forcing an atonement on a player for using his class features is not appropriate.
To be fair, another thing that's inappropriate is equating "switch your dead pets too much" with "must not put animal companion in danger".
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If your pet is getting one-shotted, why shouldn't you change it for one that isn't dead?
Is switching dead pets too much even a thing? I would think it would be on a 1:1 ratio of your pet being killed.
I think he was referring to haphazardly tossing your pet into lethal situations with no thought to whether it lives or dies as long as it's convenient for you.
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While the alignment isn't allowed in PFS, that sounds appropriate to a NE druid who reveres nature for the power that it gives him. No atonement required.
A N druid could certainly justify doing so if it allowed him and his allies to escape or avoid danger. No atonement required.
A NG druid could justify it if it served some greater good. No atonement required.
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From what I've seen, the animals of low level druids tend to be on par with a pretty good fighter/barbarian build, many of which can dominate front line combat at low tiers, but the druid himself tends to suck in a fight. As they level, the animal doesn't keep up in damage output, but the druid gets better spells, making the druid more worthwhile.
All in all, it seems pretty balanced to me. Maybe not perfect, but I don't believe in perfection.
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A few of us here in Friendly Manitoba have discussed coming down to the Twin Cities for some gaming. Is there a Con or something happening this summer sometime that we should plan for?Nice im from Manitba; short trip. To be fair we have lots of great players (& GMs)!
You may see me this summer!
Typically the 1st & 3rd Sunday every month at one location. Every Saturday at another Location. Every 2nd Saturday I run a double header at a 3rd location. And every Sunday at a 4th location. V-C Ryan Bolduan organizes this one, and I assist when and as necessary.
1st & 3rd Sundays are at Fantasy Flight Games Event Center in Roseville MN. Usually get 3-4 tables, but just sat 5 – 6-player tables last game day.
June 3, 17; July 1, 15; August 5, 19 (Gen Con, so both V-C Ryan Bolduan and myself & possibly many of our GMs will be at Gen Con); Sept 2, 16.
Every Sunday is at The Source Comics & Games in Roseville, MN. Usually sits 1-2 tables, but plenty of room if we wanted to seat a few more. This is being coordinated by Jon Lamkin, but Ryan Bolduan, myself or both of us would be more than willing to help Jon coordinate an influx from Manitoba for the day.
June 3, 10, 17, 24; July 1, 8 (Paizo Con, I will be at Paizo Con), 15, 22, 29; August 5, 12, 19 (Gen Con, both V-C Ryan Bolduan and myself and possibly many of our GMs will be at Gen Con), 26; Sept 2, 9, 16, 23, 30.
Every Saturday is at Tower Games in South Minneapolis, MN. Just started 2 months ago and we just sat 4 tables last game day. This is being coordinated by Sven, but Ryan Bolduan, myself or both of us would be more than willing to help Sven coordinate an influx from Manitoba for the day.
June 2, 9, 16, 23, 30; July 7 (Paizo Con), 14, 21, 28; August 4, 11, 18 (Gen Con), 25; Sept 1, 8, 15, 22, 29
Every 2nd Saturday is a double header (2 sessions—been running modules lately) at Village Games in Anoka, MN. Typically just 1 table, but we run 2 sessions that day and have the space from 11am to 12pm to run modules if we want to. I coordinate this one and would have to find another GM, but with enough advance warning, this should not be an issue.
June 9th, July 21st (yes, this is the 3rd Saturday, as I am out of town at Paizo Con on the 7th, and the 14th I have a wedding so moving it to the 3rd Saturday), August 11th, Sept 8th.
June 9th & 10th, July 21st & 22nd, August 11th & 12th, and Sept 8th & 9th would get you the most bang for your buck (3 sessions) at official game days, and I’m sure with enough advance warning, we could run a Triple Header at Village Games on that Saturday.
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I can live with that.
I guess I'm just using observations from my own lodge, where the players who have a habit of 'not playing well with others' (very small minority) usually are the power gamers and optimisers. This may have exaggerated my correlation of optimisers with Role vs Roll ... please forgive me.
The idea of "good min-maxing doesn't equal bad roleplaying" is called the Stormwind Fallacy. Lots of interesting stuff has been written on it.
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Worst case scenario , mother nature wouldn't like how you treat your "friends". If you ask me atonement might be needed if you switch your dead pets to much.This is not correct. The animal companion is there to fight with you. If it dies, you might mourn for it, but you're certainly not going to never get another animal companion.
Showing reverence for nature does not ever mean "must not put animal companion in danger", and forcing an atonement on a player for using his class features is not appropriate.
I said its worst case scenario really. This most likely wouldn't happen or need to happen, but if player keeps getting his animal companion killed every scenario either due to mistakes or being a jerk not really caring about it, a simple atonement might slap him in the face just to be careful a bit.
I am merely stating this as a possibility, not something to be done regularly.|
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Schedule stuffA few of us here in Friendly Manitoba have discussed coming down to the Twin Cities for some gaming. Is there a Con or something happening this summer sometime that we should plan for?Nice im from Manitba; short trip. To be fair we have lots of great players (& GMs)!
You may see me this summer!
Thanks for the info! I'll ask around and see if & when people are interested in making the trip.
There will also be a fairly large contingent from Manitoba at PaizoCon.
If any of you folks feel like making a road trip, we have regular game days Monday & Thursday evening, plus a couple of cons and some other events put on by some of the local stores.
I'll PM you with any further updates.
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Schedule stuffA few of us here in Friendly Manitoba have discussed coming down to the Twin Cities for some gaming. Is there a Con or something happening this summer sometime that we should plan for?Nice im from Manitba; short trip. To be fair we have lots of great players (& GMs)!
You may see me this summer!
Thanks for the info! I'll ask around and see if & when people are interested in making the trip.
There will also be a fairly large contingent from Manitoba at PaizoCon.
If any of you folks feel like making a road trip, we have regular game days Monday & Thursday evening, plus a couple of cons and some other events put on by some of the local stores.
I'll PM you with any further updates.
For me that's a possibility, but most likely not until after October as I am now engaged and the most likely date will be October. So with Paizo Con, Gen Con and then a wedding to plan, this summer is going to be crazy busy and cost a gem.
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I don't even think the druid in question is particularly optimized. The AC build is pretty good, and it just does what it does. It probably stands out because many PFS scenarios are about mobility, and the cat is very mobile.
Plus, most PFS scenarios just throw out crappy NPCs that optimized PCs and PCs with AC (kinda like 2 PCs for the price of one) just massacre wholesale. The rest of the party is not needed, and in some cases I've seen, just gets in the way. I'd rather go play Starcraft if that's going to be the case in PFS. :)