cranewings |
So, I've only read the Gunslinger rules once, never play myself, always GM and I run rules light. That means I don't know crap about the finicky inner workings of the system and only really look into them when something new starts to become a problem.
The gunslinger is starting to get there. For the most part, I just trust my players to play by the rules and I don't really look into it unless I have to.
The gunslinger was kind of a piece of crap character for quite a while. He was a musketeer rocking 1d12 + 4 once a round for quite a while and he ran out of grit unfortunately quickly. He hit 6th level a few games ago, and around 5th he picked up rapid shot and the party pulled their wealth and got him enough coin to build a pepperbox rifle. Sense that point, he has been owning.
He had a rough go of it the first 4 levels so I've been turning a bit of a blind eye to his exploits the last few games to make up for it, but there comes a time in every rules-lite GM's life when he has to buckle down and read a book, so I'm about to write up a Gunslinger.
Are there any obvious oversights I should be looking for that make the gunslinger better than he should be?
cranewings |
It could also just seem bad because the party is so effective at keeping him up, especially in a dungeon where they can control the avenue of attack a bit better (by clearing out what's behind them).
The Paladin fights with a glaive and uses Combat Reflexes and Standstill to great effect. Near him is the monk maneuver master / grappler who is often enlarged and sometimes invisible, who dashes to the enemy rear to grab up any squishies. Just in front of the Paladin is the halfling cleric with the healing domain and an obscene AC who provides cover and helps get him up, a utility wizard, and the gunslinger in the rear. The cleric is a master of memorizing "no" spells like Invisibility Purge and Dispel magic - and they really do work well as a group to cover every base. Between the Reach Paladin and the Healing Cleric, it is about impossible to get to the Gunslinger or keep him down.
Deadmanwalking |
Are there any obvious oversights I should be looking for that make the gunslinger better than he should be?
Not really. I mean, they do pretty good damage against touch AC...but reloading basically requires both Alchemical Cartridges and a Feat, and still takes a Move Action for a musket user. And Misfires are a definite problem as well. Plus their attacks are 6 GP a shot.
They're good, but barring various abusive and questionable uses of two-weapon fighting or double-barreled pistols, they aren't really any more awesome than, say, a focused archer build.
spalding |
cranewings wrote:Are there any obvious oversights I should be looking for that make the gunslinger better than he should be?Not really. I mean, they do pretty good damage against touch AC...but reloading basically requires both Alchemical Cartridges and a Feat, and still takes a Move Action for a musket user. And Misfires are a definite problem as well. Plus their attacks are 6 GP a shot.
They're good, but barring various abusive and questionable uses of two-weapon fighting or double-barreled pistols, they aren't really any more awesome than, say, a focused archer build.
Even with that abuse they still are just breaking even generally due to the penalties associated with the attack roll.
cranewings |
Cranewings, just a note...stand still is explicitly adjacent enemies only. It's not enemies you threaten, so it does not work with a glaive normally.
Unless you mean he uses it on adjacent enemies only, and tries to keep them away with the glaive.
Eh, that's an actual house rule I've played with so long I think it is a normal rule. I always let Stand Still work with reach.
spalding |
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They aren't 6 gp a shot. An alchemical cartridge (bullet) will be 1.2 gp.
Meh not so much:
Crafting Ammunition: You can craft bullets, pellets, and black powder for a cost in raw materials equal to 10% of the price. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you can craft alchemical cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the cartridge. At your GM’s discretion, you can craft metal cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the cost of the cartridge. Crafting bullets, black powder, or cartridges takes 1 day of work for every 1,000 gp of ammunition (minimum 1 day).
cranewings |
Although oddly I'm not seeing it in my beta document, hmm.
I've had that come up one of the only times I got to play. I was playing a switch hitting Ranger with Combat Reflexes and Standstill, and was often enlarged.
The GM had the same house rule as me, being one of my usual players, though he did find the character fairly annoying. I don't know if the rules work this way or not, but we just started letting advancing enemies hold their actions to Disarm or Sunder the spear when they advanced. It solved the problem pretty well - or at least made it seem fair.
Deadmanwalking |
Well, I didn't know that. What are they shooting, Moon Rocks?
Homemade gunpowder isn't cheap, nor are homemade alchemical supplies (to make the cartridges). The bullet itself is cheap as hell.
They aren't 6 gp a shot. An alchemical cartridge (bullet) will be 1.2 gp.
Nope! As Abraham Spaulding mentions, normal bullets are 1/10 cost to make with gunsmithing (so 1.1 GP), but Alchemical Cartridges are half price (so 6 GP).
It's a bit of a nasty cost at lower levels.
CommandoDude |
Sense that point, he has been owning.
How? His gun only does the same damage as a bow and he has a range increment of 20ft, beyond that range he's at -2 and no touch attack. Plus, after every barrel has been fired, he must reload each barrel individually, even with the rapid reload feat and alchemical cartridges he only has 1 swift action per round to reload.
Archers and Mages should have no trouble against the Gunslinger.
If you want to get at him with melee, use a large or bigger sized creature and overrun anyone blocking him.
Jezai |
Jezai wrote:Are you following all the general ranged rules? Such as +4ac for soft cover when a party member or an enemy is in the way?Yup.
I think the problem is the pulling of wealth together, since he got an item earlier (because his party helped him.) he is probably ahead of the curve. See how well he fairs against later monsters? Monsters now and in a few levels should be getting things like flight which makes the gunslingers job a lot more difficult.
Jezai |
There are two problems I found: I didn't realize his extra 20' range required a move action for aiming. Not that big of a deal.
Bigger deal: can you stack the penalty for firing into melee with the cover penalty for shooting at someone directly across from the ally he is fighting?
Yes, they do stack. Thats why he needs to take those two feats which hurts his options.
cranewings |
cranewings wrote:Yes, they do stack. Thats why he needs to take those two feats which hurts his options.There are two problems I found: I didn't realize his extra 20' range required a move action for aiming. Not that big of a deal.
Bigger deal: can you stack the penalty for firing into melee with the cover penalty for shooting at someone directly across from the ally he is fighting?
Thanks. Which feats? Precise shot and?
Benchak the Nightstalker Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8 |
Luminiere Solas |
Jezai wrote:Thanks. Which feats? Precise shot and?cranewings wrote:Yes, they do stack. Thats why he needs to take those two feats which hurts his options.There are two problems I found: I didn't realize his extra 20' range required a move action for aiming. Not that big of a deal.
Bigger deal: can you stack the penalty for firing into melee with the cover penalty for shooting at someone directly across from the ally he is fighting?
Point Blank Shot.
cranewings |
So, dead eye shot at seventh level is another reason I'm much happier playing E6. It is so unnecessarily complicated. Can't it just be +1 damage per level or something?
It does look like I was doing it right besides the ammo pricing and stacking soft cover with firing into melee.
Thanks for the help.
Kydeem de'Morcaine |
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Things I have heard about with gunslingers causing problems.
Player not tracking ammo spent.
Player using an advanced firearm when the GM said only primitive (the GM didn't look to see which table it was on).
Player 'forgetting' to apply range, cover, or in melee penalties.
Player 'forgetting' it's not a touch attack after the first range incremint.
Player 'forgetting' to mention a possible misfire that needs to be rolled. (For some reason never forget to roll for criticals though.)
Most of the time any problems have been players or GM's not following all the rules.
However, some opponents are just particularly vulnerable. I read about someone who ended up against a bunch of the old slow zombies wearing dwarven stone plate. Touch attacks bypassed the high AC and the slow zombies couldn't effectively catch and attack him. The GM was very angry about how easy the combat was compared to his expectations. But really the problem was a mismatch of opponents. Slow heavily armored zombies were simply not dangerous to a gunslinger.
EvilMinion |
The Pepperbox Rifle is where most of his power is coming from.
- I'm assuming you told them what the firearms availability was before you started (Emerging vs Advanced) ... because the pepperbox rifle is an advanced firearm, and requires metal cartridges. (said metal cartridges, assuming if he makes them himself, cost 7.5 gp per shot)
- metal cartridges are still alchemical cartridges. So theoretically should still misfire more often then regular bullets (though seems like it should be less to be honest). So on a 1-3 (15% of the time!) for the pepperbox rifle, though this problem will go away completely at lv 13)
- a rifle is NOT a musket. So that Rapid Reload (musket) feet the musketeer got for free at level 1, does not apply to his pepperbox rifle. Unfortunately, because you let him get that advanced firearm, it is a move action to reload it to capacity regardless, and since metal cartridges are alchemical cartridges, that reduces it another step to a free action to reload all four barrels of the pepperbox rifle, with no feat investment at all (this really seems odd to me, so some interpretation might be in order).
- pay attention to range increments... but again, since you gave him the advanced pepperbox rifle, his range range increment is 80' ... so unlikely to ever be an issue.
- pay attention to grit point usage... he won't need to use them as much now that he has the advanced firearm, as he's reloading for free and has a huge first range increment without having to use grit points anymore, but still, he will only have a small number of them.
So in summary, three of the major balancing drawbacks of the gunslinger (only touch ac within the first range increment, fire rate, and reload speeds) you've completely negated by allowing the advanced pepperbox rifle. That leaves misfires, bullet cost, and grit pool as his only limiting factors now... and the first two can be made to go away too.
Now, whether this is a problem is a different discussion, as a many melee classes or archer types might still do better.
/shrug
Kaisoku |
If the wizard is helping the gunslinger, he'll be casting Abundant Ammunition at the onset of combat. Helps a lot in the cost of ammunition.
Other than that, sounds like the group is sort of relying on him to be a damage dealer. Defensive/healing cleric, battle control paladin, utility wizard, and maneuvering monk. The gunslinger will seem awesome as long as he focuses on damage, pretty much and class should in that position.
I'd read up on advanced firearms though, as they run quite differently.
Joyd |
The gunslinger class is designed to be balanced and in-band with the emerging firearms rules, and it is. It's actually a nicely middle-of-the-pack class - a bit above average in terms of brutal offensive output, somewhat below average in terms of utility, but just overall in a nice spot. In the words of the "Emerging Firearms" section of UC, "The baseline Gunslinger rules and the prices for ammunition given in this chapter are for this type of campaign."
The "Commonplace Guns" rules - the ones that make Pepperbox Rifles generally available - have potentially significant effects on the potency of gunslingers. I don't think that they skyrocket gunslingers out of band or anything (and the price adjustments help combat the "I can't afford my own combat style at level one" issue that gunslingers normally have to deal with), but if you're finding a gunslinger already a potent contributor in your campaign, then advanced firearms might push him to a place you don't want.