I agree with the heavy weapons, most of the monk's are light anyway. On the other hand, weapons can have properties and every monk is going to have at least one or two backups for when he or she is facing DR/slashing or DR/piercing. That's when they start needing the weapon training feature.
Why is it wrong if in these cases the monk has to use a suboptimal choice? DR would be useless and flavorless if it had no effect and just having to switch to another weapon without losing anything would mean just that.
Even the fighter will have to switch to another weapon for which he will probably not have weapon specialization.Weapon training also allows us to get rid of the full-BAB-but-not-full-BAB confusion. The monk is now 3/4 BAB, no debate required. Weapon training jacks it up to being able to hit almost as accurately as full BAB, which is where we want the monk to be to actually do something to their foes.
Just make the monk full BAB. No debate required either. And much cleaner. No weapon training needed.
Which is all fine and dandy. I am looking at increasing the versatility of the core monk, not at archetypes. The core is where the problem lies, after all.
Yes, but the core monk does not need to be as good with weapons as unarmed. Not being top notch with weapons is not one the problems of the core monk. Let's fix the real problems.
If you want a weapon monk flavor, use the archetype.On the flip side, why should we add another half-one-thing-half-another fix to the system? If we can get the same result by sticking with the rules everyone understands, why introduce new ones?
A bonus to hit without adding to the damage is darkly a new rule. Masterwork weapons immediately come to mind as well as many spells like bless and others.
Currently you need a degree in system mastery to make the monk effective, and I want to change that.
Sorry, I don't agree with that.
Well I think the monk isn't going to buy a Belt of Giant strength, he needs all three physical stats far more than the fighter. It's a belt of power or a belt of physical perfection for him. You could assume that comes from the rest of his cash, and the +6 item is a Headband of Inspired Wisdom which the monk needs and the fighter doesn't. With the monk's robe that's +4 to AC, but then the monk is not permitted armour and plate armour is +9 to AC.
While I agree that the monk might probably choose another belt I don't agree with the reason you gave: "needs all three physical stats far more than the fighter". He might need Con +2 to make up for the smaller HD. But then he might not because he just goes for better AC and combined with evasion and AC+4 ki won't loose as many hp as the fighter.
Regarding the AC: the monk will probably (due to MAD working in his favor) have a Wis +3
already without the Headband. Together with his monk AC bonus (counting the robe but not the headband because that was not in my list and we had to allow the fighter to spend the rest of his cash for a valid comparison) we get +8 to AC. That is almost as good as the fighter's plate armor without having the disadvantages of plate armor (can't swim, can't sneak, takes 4 minutes to don, etc.). And it works for touch AC as well. Seems like a good deal to me which I would take any day.
The Amulet of mighty fists +3 is a wasted item as such - the enhancement bonus to hit and damage will not stack with the monk's natural enhancement bonus. Using it to get weapon properties makes much more sense, and that's perfectly acceptable. This gives the monk a +7 equivelant weapon, which is strong but not out of the ball park at this level.
You are right. I realized that soon after posting and edited that (you probably were already busy answering in the meantime :-)
We can't really compare the two without knowing what else they spent their cash on. The best way to compare is to stat out a complete monk and a complete fighter [...].
Correct, that's why I started that other thread a while ago :-)
They could take any or all parts of my Blademaster archtype, and I would be happy.
I agree with the heavy weapons, most of the monk's are light anyway. On the other hand, weapons can have properties and every monk is going to have at least one or two backups for when he or she is facing DR/slashing or DR/piercing. That's when they start needing the weapon training feature.Why is it wrong if in these cases the monk has to use a suboptimal choice? DR would be useless and flavorless if it had no effect and just having to switch to another weapon without losing anything would mean just that.
Even the fighter will have to switch to another weapon for which he will probably not have weapon specialization.
It's a question not of suboptimal but of how suboptimal.
You are talking about the monk being an unarmed master, which is cool. But what if you want your monk to do a Bruce Lee impression with a set of nunchucks?
It's not just about making a monk that is effective at one thing, it's about making a monk that can be made effective at several different things. There's no 'one true way' to make a decent fighter, and there should be no 'one true way' to make a good monk. Just as you do not need to choose a different archetype to be good at a combat style with a fighter, you shouldn't need to choose a separate archetype to be a different kind of monk. Archetypes should be options, not essentials IMHO.
Also, if the fighter switches to another weapon he has a wide choice of very effective weapons to choose from that will probably fall into a category of one of his weapon training options. The monk has not this choice, so it's hardly broken to let them be good with what they can choose from.
Weapon training also allows us to get rid of the full-BAB-but-not-full-BAB confusion. The monk is now 3/4 BAB, no debate required. Weapon training jacks it up to being able to hit almost as accurately as full BAB, which is where we want the monk to be to actually do something to their foes.Just make the monk full BAB. No debate required either. And much cleaner. No weapon training needed.
Not a possibility I have discounted, but full BAB poses other issues with the monk. They are very good defensively, and I see the issue here as making them effective offensively without making too good at it. Monks get a hell of a lot of powers and class features, after all.
3/4 BAB limits the monks in some ways that reduce their effectiveness. This allows us to improve effectiveness in one area while knowing it will not go overboard elsewhere. The weapon training concept focuses the monk on monk weapons and unarmed strike with a carrot, not a stick.
On the flip side, full BAB does not address some other issues that afflict the monk, while weapon training does.
Which is all fine and dandy. I am looking at increasing the versatility of the core monk, not at archetypes. The core is where the problem lies, after all.Yes, but the core monk does not need to be as good with weapons as unarmed. Not being top notch with weapons is not one the problems of the core monk. Let's fix the real problems.
If you want a weapon monk flavor, use the archetype.
If we all want the monk you want, that's great.
But I want the monk that can be made to fit a wide number of concepts that people will have, not just what I personally would like to have. You should not have to choose an archetype to be effective at a concept, you should choose an archetype to excel at a concept. That's how it works for every other class, anyway, with the archetype as the gravy and the class the meal.
The monk has a multitude of problems. Among them is that it is hard to make the monk you want, you have to work within strict confines in order for a particular monk design to be effective. I really don't like that, your character's entire effectiveness at being what they are should hinge as much on the class as on the feats you choose.
Looking at the monks problems and how this build fixes them:
1) Lack of effective enhancement for unarmed strike. Check, built in enhancement solves that and as a bonus does not change the AoMF.
2) MADness inherent in the monk. Check, monk weapon training, maneuver training and wholeness of body reduce the necessity for high str and con.
3) Flurry of blows being incompatible with fast movement. Check, this version of FoB allows you to 'short flurry' and 'long flurry' as you need.
4) Lack of versatility. Check, you can find other ways to focus your monk than on just unarmed combat and maneuvers.
On the flip side, why should we add another half-one-thing-half-another fix to the system? If we can get the same result by sticking with the rules everyone understands, why introduce new ones?A bonus to hit without adding to the damage is darkly a new rule. Masterwork weapons immediately come to mind as well as many spells like bless and others.
No, and it is one I have already proposed as a class feature, feat option and item. In this redesign I wanted to get away from that, though, and look at ways the monk could be restructured in a way that is simpler and more in tune with Pathfinder in general. My objective was not just to fix the issues above but also get rid of the jury-rigged feel of the monk with 3/4 BAB for some attacks and full BAB-2 for others in the same combat round.
Well I think the monk isn't going to buy a Belt of Giant strength, he needs all three physical stats far more than the fighter. It's a belt of power or a belt of physical perfection for him. You could assume that comes from the rest of his cash, and the +6 item is a Headband of Inspired Wisdom which the monk needs and the fighter doesn't. With the monk's robe that's +4 to AC, but then the monk is not permitted armour and plate armour is +9 to AC.While I agree that the monk might probably choose another belt I don't agree with the reason you gave: "needs all three physical stats far more than the fighter". He might need Con +2 to make up for the smaller HD. But then he might not because he just goes for better AC and combined with evasion and AC+4 ki won't loose as many hp as the fighter.
No question, the monk can get ahead of the fighter in AC. Problem is that at high level that does not mean he will not get hit, just that he will get hit a bit less often - sometimes, if the enemy uses iterative attacks. He still needs hit points, and the way the items are structured, you can't get a belt of Dex +6, Str +4 and and Con +2, it's all or nothing.
Hence the monk will need more strength (for damage), more dexterity (for AC) and more con (for hit points). So it's belt of physical perfection or bust. Plus, he needs something for his wis. The fighter really only needs strength and con, and if he wants wis he'll just a get a +2 item for it separately.
Regarding the AC: the monk will probably (due to MAD working in his favor) have a Wis +3 already without the Headband. Together with his monk AC bonus (counting the robe but not the headband because that was not in my list and we had to allow the fighter to spend the rest of his cash for a valid comparison) we get +8 to AC. That is almost as good as the fighter's plate armor without having the disadvantages of plate armor (can't swim, can't sneak, takes 4 minutes to don, etc.).
Clearly you have forgotten the fighter's other main feature, armour training. You are also forgetting that in spite of the enhancement bonus, the monk is no better off resource-wise than they were before, because there was nothing else to spend their resources on in terms of enhancing their unarmed strike. All that's happened is they are now offensively a little closer to the fighter...and that's what we were trying to fix.
And it works for touch AC as well. Seems like a good deal to me which I would take any day.
It's good, but it's not outstanding, especially at the level where ghost touch armour becomes affordable.
The Amulet of mighty fists +3 is a wasted item as such - the enhancement bonus to hit and damage will not stack with the monk's natural enhancement bonus. Using it to get weapon properties makes much more sense, and that's perfectly acceptable. This gives the monk a +7 equivelant weapon, which is strong but not out of the ball park at this level.You are right. I realized that soon after posting and edited that (you probably were already busy answering in the meantime :-)
Yes I was - we all make mistakes! :-)
We can't really compare the two without knowing what else they spent their cash on. The best way to compare is[...]Correct, that's why I started that other thread a while ago :-)
You did indeed. Thing is, with the enhancement thing I a have a little advantage: I was involved in the work Dreamscarred Press did with the soulknife for Psionics Unleashed, which posed all the same problems of giving one class a free item while the comparable classes had to pay for theirs. I already know that the amount the monk 'saves' will get spent on the other items he needs to compensate him in other areas.
I do appreciate your input, though - it's really testing this design and making me think carefully about it!
Also, if the fighter switches to another weapon he has a wide choice of very effective weapons to choose from that will probably fall into a category of one of his weapon training options. The monk has not this choice, so it's hardly broken to let them be good with what they can choose from.
Even the fighter will have to switch to another weapon for which he will probably not have weapon specialization.
Like I wrote: the fighter probably won't have all four weapon focus/spec feats for his secondary weapons, so he's at -2/-4. Probably more like -3/-5 because he will most certainly have less weapon training for his secondary weapons.
My objective was not just to fix the issues above but also get rid of the jury-rigged feel of the monk with 3/4 BAB for some attacks and full BAB-2 for others in the same combat round.
Full BAB does the same.
While I agree that the monk might probably choose another belt I don't agree with the reason you gave: "needs all three physical stats far more than the fighter". He might need Con +2 to make up for the smaller HD. But then he might not because he just goes for better AC and combined with evasion and AC+4 ki won't loose as many hp as the fighter.No question, the monk can get ahead of the fighter in AC. Problem is that at high level that does not mean he will not get hit, just that he will get hit a bit less often - sometimes, if the enemy uses iterative attacks. He still needs hit points, and the way the items are structured, you can't get a belt of Dex +6, Str +4 and and Con +2, it's all or nothing.
Getting hit less often, especially with the high damage dealt at high levels means that the monk does NOT need more Con than the fighter. Quite the contrary: one single missed hit which would have dealt 30 hp (which is probably low!) means that the 15th level monk just got 4 points of Con to spare (or 2 points compared to the fighter who has a higher HD).
[...]disadvantages of plate armor (can't swim, can't sneak, takes 4 minutes to don, etc.).Clearly you have forgotten the fighter's other main feature, armour training.
I don't see where armor training helps with swimming in plate armor or donning plate armor (a whopping 4 minutes, i.e. 40 rounds).
You are also forgetting that in spite of the enhancement bonus, the monk is no better off resource-wise than they were before, because there was nothing else to spend their resources on in terms of enhancing their unarmed strike.
So what? He can spend his resources on many interesting items like a hat of disguise, boots of speed etc. I always liked the Wondrous items more than magic weapons... Much more interesting and diverse.
And it works for touch AC as well. Seems like a good deal to me which I would take any day.It's good, but it's not outstanding, especially at the level where ghost touch armour becomes affordable.
Ghost touch costs +3 enchantment. That's 15.000...39.000 or even more that the monk will spend otherwise. Don't forget that for each enhancement that the fighter can buy for his weapon or armor the monk will buy something else.
I do appreciate your input, though - it's really testing this design and making me think carefully about it!
Glad to hear that :-)
Like I wrote: the fighter probably won't have all four weapon focus/spec feats for his secondary weapons, so he's at -2/-4. Probably more like -3/-5 because he will most certainly have less weapon training for his secondary weapons.
That does not change the fact that the fighter - and the other full BAB classes - have access to better weapons. A fighter will generally slect an item from his secondary weapon group, although I agree he will probably not have weapon focus with it. My point, though, is that the weapon is better - usually either bigger dice or greater threat ranges or crit multipliers. These make a big difference at high level.
My objective was not just to fix the issues above but also get rid of the jury-rigged feel of the monk with 3/4 BAB for some attacks and full BAB-2 for others in the same combat round.Full BAB does the same.
It does indeed, but it brings some issues with it. One of my concerns is that the monk is very powerful defensively. I want them functional at dishing out hits and damage, but not necessarily too good at it. Right now, they are not good enough; too good is just as broken.
BAB applies some limitations on feats like Vital Strike, Power Attack and so on, which I think could be important, and that's why I stuck with 3/4 BAB. Doing that I could cut loose with weapon training in a full and unreserved form without worrying about breaking the monk.
No question, the monk can get ahead of the fighter in AC. Problem is that at high level that does not mean he will not get hit, just that he will get hit a bit less often - sometimes, if the enemy uses iterative attacks. He still needs hit points, and the way the items are structured, you can't get a belt of Dex +6, Str +4 and and Con +2, it's all or nothing.Getting hit less often, especially with the high damage dealt at high levels means that the monk does NOT need more Con than the fighter. Quite the contrary: one single missed hit which would have dealt 30 hp (which is probably low!) means that the 15th level monk just got 4 points of Con to spare (or 2 points compared to the fighter who has a higher HD).
I disagree. High AC at high level means getting hit less often sometimes if your target is using iterative attacks. If they are not, you have problems. One recent encounter my players had at 15th level was a dragon that hit them with an attack bonus of +40 on all it's attacks, with the highest AC in the party 37.
Problem with AC is that it steadily gets less effective at avoiding damage as you face greater threats.
I don't see where armor training helps with swimming in plate armor or donning plate armor (a whopping 4 minutes, i.e. 40 rounds).
I don't see either circumstances occurring often enough to be relevant.
So what? He can spend his resources on many interesting items like a hat of disguise, boots of speed etc. I always liked the Wondrous items more than magic weapons... Much more interesting and diverse.
True. But not always that helpful in the arena we are working in - we're talking combat effectiveness here, because ultimately the monk is a combat class.
Ghost touch costs +3 enchantment. That's 15.000...39.000 or even more that the monk will spend otherwise. Don't forget that for each enhancement that the fighter can buy for his weapon or armor the monk will buy something else.
At high level it's small change. There is only so much the monk can spend his cash on that can help his offensive ability, which is his bottleneck.
Glad to hear that :-)
You are welcome.
OK, here's what I came up with after taking on board some criticisms.
I've axed the BAB=Monk level for Maneuver training, as the Weapon Training effectively provided full BAB anyway. Fear not, if you wanted a maneuver monk, I've added in some extra features to the weapon training to more than compensate for the loss.
The main change is in weapon proficiency and weapon abilities. A monk gets basic weapon proficiencies and then adds one group proficiency onto that, anything from light swords to pole fighting to close quarters weapons. These include a lot of the exotic monk weapons as well as conventional weapons - they are not the same as the fighter's weapon groups.
Each time the ability increments, the monk gets to choose a weapon training ability - they could make a proficient weapon a monk weapon, improve the damage dice of their unarmed strike, improve maneuvers, or increase threat ranges.
My idea was to allow the monk more options in terms of combat styles. Let me know how I did!
Further upgrades and an alternative here.
A standard monk that keeps most abilities close to the original to make archetypes easier to adapt, and a Mystic Monk that replaces many abilities with options.
Enjoy!
I came up with a better formula for my flurry-of-blows, which I think is a vast improvement. I added in Catfall in a slightly altered form, added the Greater feats into bonus feats (so long as you have the Improved feats) and a new ability for the mystic monk. I have adjusted the fast movement of both types of monk so that it can stack with enhancement bonuses, but downgraded it in scope somewhat with a clear formula for it (twice monk level rounded down to the nearest 5').
Here is my standard monk, with new improved FoB goodness among other things.
Here is the mystic monk, with similar advantages.
Thanks Stragen, I have already given my feedback there!
Oh damn Dabbler you Monks are awesome, and I'd like to make some comments if you don't mind.
AC Bonus: Well, not actually a comment, but did you mean to put this before the table? Seems a little weird to me.
Flurry of Blows: Ah, yes. I really like this version of Flurry, though I that, while the wording is comprehensible, it could use some cleaning up. For example, instead of using the name Fast Flurry, couldn't you just say that the Monk is able to do a normal full attack as a standard action (while not being able to do it while cleaving, vital striking, etc)?
Monk Weapon Training: This is highly useful and I love it, but I think it could use another name, since "Monk Weapon Training" is not exactly indicative of the fact that it's a version of Weapon Finesse, and you also already have another Weapon Training there.
World Wise, Artisan: I belive you meant that Appraise becomes a class skill, and not a craft one?
Maneuver Training: Again, not really a comment, but you might want to add "At 3rd level," at the beginning of the description.
Weapon Training, Mighty Fists: Now this is the part that I have the most questions about. First off, here's the current Monk's damage progression:
Small: 1d4 -----> 1d6 --> 1d8 --> 1d10 -> 2d6 --> 2d8
Medium: 1d6 --> 1d8 --> 1d10 -> 2d6 --> 2d8 --> 2d10
Large: 1d8 ----> 2d6 --> 2d8 --> 3d6 --> 3d8 --> 4d8
And here's yours:
Small: 1d4 -----> 1d6 --> 1d8 --> 1d10 -> 2d6
Medium: 1d6 --> 1d8 --> 1d10 -> 2d6
Large: 1d8 ----> 1d10 -> 2d6
1. So, small Monks would need to select this training more times if they want to reach the 2d6, which makes sense since they start lower, but still seems a little weird to me (it probably wouldn't were 2d6 not the maximum for all three sizes), so I'd like to know if this is what you had in mind.
2. What happens if the Monk is subject to Enlarge Person? I'm assuming the damage would advance one step, but what if they're already at 2d6? (note that this is not a problem for the current Monk because, again, 2d6 is not the maximum for all three sizes)
3. I'm not entirely sure on what the "for large-sized monks the damage dice at each stage increase ppropriately" is supposed to mean, so some clarification would be nice. Does it mean that their damage progresses as it does for the current large Monk?
4. In addition, the Ninja's Unarmed Combat Mastery master trick would also have to be changed in order to work with this. Currently, it makes the Ninja's unarmed strikes deal damage as if he were a Monk of his level -4.
Wholeness of Body: I noticed that the standard Monk here can heal 1HP/level for 1 ki, 2HP/level for 2, or 3HP/level for 3, while the mystic can heal 3HP/level for 2 ki. Deliberate?
I'd say something about your mystic Monk too, but well there's not much to say that I haven't already, I think, besides that I love Undying and that you forgot to put a 'no' in "there is no oxygen" in Zen Body's description.
Oh damn Dabbler you Monks are awesome, and I'd like to make some comments if you don't mind.
** spoiler omitted **...
Thank you! I am glad you like it. I really want to focus on the 'standard' monk because of existing monk archetypes.
AC Bonus: Well, not actually a comment, but did you mean to put this before the table? Seems a little weird to me.
I had to adjust things to get the whole table onto one page is all.
Flurry of Blows: Ah, yes. I really like this version of Flurry, though I that, while the wording is comprehensible, it could use some cleaning up. For example, instead of using the name Fast Flurry, couldn't you just say that the Monk is able to do a normal full attack as a standard action (while not being able to do it while cleaving, vital striking, etc)?
Because it IS still a flurry, only applicable to perform with monk weapons or the unarmed strike. Calling it a flurry means there is no debate over how it can be used. If I called it a full attack it would have different implications and options available.
Monk Weapon Training: This is highly useful and I love it, but I think it could use another name, since "Monk Weapon Training" is not exactly indicative of the fact that it's a version of Weapon Finesse, and you also already have another Weapon Training there.
Good point, it could be called 'Monk Finesse' instead?
World Wise, Artisan: I belive you meant that Appraise becomes a class skill, and not a craft one?
Yes, as they already have Craft as a class skill it deemed redundant to add it twice. As they do not gain many skills, Master Craftsman seemed like a cool idea, using ki to make magic items instead of magic.
Maneuver Training: Again, not really a comment, but you might want to add "At 3rd level," at the beginning of the description.
Fixed!
Weapon Training, Mighty Fists: Now this is the part that I have the most questions about. First off, here's the current Monk's damage progression:
Small: 1d4 -----> 1d6 --> 1d8 --> 1d10 -> 2d6 --> 2d8
Medium: 1d6 --> 1d8 --> 1d10 -> 2d6 --> 2d8 --> 2d10
Large: 1d8 ----> 2d6 --> 2d8 --> 3d6 --> 3d8 --> 4d8And here's yours:
Small: 1d4 -----> 1d6 --> 1d8 --> 1d10 -> 2d6
Medium: 1d6 --> 1d8 --> 1d10 -> 2d6
Large: 1d8 ----> 1d10 -> 2d6
OK, I clearly wasn't very clear on this, and looking at it I can see that I wasn't consistent either. The base damage for a medium monk should be
Medium: 1d6 --> 1d8 --> 1d10 -> 2d6
It may not look as good, but bear in mind that there is up to +4 from weapon training on top of this, as well as full enhancement available. For small and large monks, the intention is that the progression should change according to size:
Small: 1d4 --> 1d6 --> 1d8 --> 1d10
Medium: 1d6 --> 1d8 --> 1d10 --> 2d6
Large: 1d8 --> 2d6 --> 2d8 --> 3d6
Hence if you are enlarged or reduced, the damage changes up or down, The 2d6v limit is for a medium sized monk - it's 3d6 for a large monk, 1d10 for a small monk.
Does that make more sense? I've updated the text to reflect my intentions better,
Wholeness of Body: I noticed that the standard Monk here can heal 1HP/level for 1 ki, 2HP/level for 2, or 3HP/level for 3, while the mystic can heal 3HP/level for 2 ki. Deliberate?
Pretty much. As I said, I'm stopping work on the mystic monk and sticking with the 'standard' because of the archetypes around.
Here is a corrected version of the standard.
Here's my flurry of blows suggestion. And here's the telekinetic monk archetype. :)
That's similar to Master Arminas' system of FoB, and your competance bonus is something I used in earlier designs and then scrapped for weapon training as simpler and with more available options.
One thing bandied about was replacing all the monks mystic powers with psychic warrior power progression - so you keep a few basics and then tack the powers on top.
Here's a word-count reduced version of the standard monk I've been working on. This is down to under 4,000 words including tables, but there's still room for improvement.
Possibilities are relegating the weapon proficiencies and world wise features to being monk feats instead. Mechanically this may not be necessary, but it will shave off 5-600 words while retaining the concepts.