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Okay, here's my question: Do rays and melee touch attacks count as weapons for the purposes of the Arcane Strike feat?
I could see both interpretations of this one, which is why I feel the need to ask.
On the one hand, Arcane Strike seems to imply (by virtue of making the weapon count as magic for bypassing DR) that it only applies to physical weapons. Further discounting this theory is that fact that Weapon Focus states that Rays and Melee Touch attacks may be selected, but only for the purposes of that specific feat, meaning they would otherwise not be treated as weapons.
On the other hand, the fact that they can even be selected as options for Weapon Focus/Specialization, in addition to the fact that you are considered to be armed when making melee touch attacks, seem to imply that they are treated like weapons, and would thus qualify for the bonus damage granted by Arcane Strike.
I'm personally leaning towards the first interpretation, but would absolutely love to be proved wrong. Thoughts?
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Huh. That's a stickier issue than I thought. As a DM, my instict is to rule that Arcane Strike is not intended to be used with melee touch attacks and rays because neither is a "weapon," but I think I'm going to have to eat my own words. Check out these FAQ's on the Pathfinder SRD; it looks like for rays especially, it works:
"'Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?'
Yes.
For example, a bard's inspire courage says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.
The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.
—Sean K Reynolds, 07/29/11"
"'Weapon Specialization (page 137): Can you take Weapon Specialization (ray) or Improved Critical (ray) as feats? How about Weapon Specialization (bomb) or Improved Critical (bomb)?'
All four of those are valid choices.
Note that Weapon Specialization (ray) only adds to hit point damage caused by a ray attack that would normally deal hit point damage; it doesn't increase ability score damage or drain (such as the Dexterity drain from polar ray), penalties to ability scores (such as from ray of enfeeblement) or drain, negative levels (such as from enervation), or other damage or penalties from rays.
—Sean K Reynolds, 10/22/10"
There was a thread on this last month. The general consensus was that weapon-like spells, such as melee touch attacks and flame blade can benefit from arcane strike. Rays, however, can not, because arcane strike requires you to make a swift action to activate, and the ray does not exist at any point when you could take that swift action. If you expend the swift action before casting the spell, the ray does not exist yet. If you use the swift action after casting the spell, you have already fired the ray, and done whatever damage you were going to do.
Weapon focus can be used for rays, or any other type of weapon-like spell you can think of.
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Rays, however, can not, because arcane strike requires you to make a swift action to activate, and the ray does not exist at any point when you could take that swift action. If you expend the swift action before casting the spell, the ray does not exist yet. If you use the swift action after casting the spell, you have already fired the ray, and done whatever damage you were going to do.
See, if Arcane Strike effects weapon-like spells, then I would have to disagree with that statement.
Arcane Strike (Combat)
You draw upon your arcane power to enhance your weapons with magical energy.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells.
Benefit: As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power. For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
Emphasis mine. I understand the part about "imbuing your weapons" being in there, but to me the important aspect of the feat rests in the bolded area above.
Maybe I'm just being cheesy, but it seems like a legitimate interpretation.
It doesn't mention that the weapon has to exist at the time the feat is activated, only that for 1 round, all of your weapons are enhanced according to the feat. Touch, ray, battleaxe, atl-atl, unarmed strike, tentacle, whatever should work.
Davor, this officially recieves the Lune seal of approval. ...and I already have a build in mind for it. I'm curious though, what did you have in mind for this?
I'll just interject that whatever you fire from a ray is magical anyway, so it doesn't benefit from that part of the feat. Most rays avoid the DR rules because they are energy damage. I cannot imagine the bonus damage to be that relevant for rays either.
I'll just interject that whatever you fire from a ray is magical anyway, so it doesn't benefit from that part of the feat. Most rays avoid the DR rules because they are energy damage. I cannot imagine the bonus damage to be that relevant for rays either.
Well, for scorching ray it would be +15 damage. Not too bad :-)
Also, your spiritual weapon or flame blade just got much better...
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It doesn't mention that the weapon has to exist at the time the feat is activated, only that for 1 round, all of your weapons are enhanced according to the feat. Touch, ray, battleaxe, atl-atl, unarmed strike, tentacle, whatever should work.
It does mention such
Arcane Strike (Combat)
You draw upon your arcane power to enhance your weapons with magical energy.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells.
Benefit: As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power. For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
You can't imbue something that doesn't exist yet.
RAW it works. When it is refering to "weapons", it means all of your weapons. Whether they are in hand, on person, or not yet in existance... although only until the end of your turn.
RAI - who knows.
Balance - outside of Scorching Ray (which has some weird wording all the way around) I don't see a balance issue at all. And even considering Scorching Ray it isn't very unbalanced. +15 damage is only with max caster level effects and by the time you get to that level 15 damage isn't going to seem like much.
RAW it works. When it is refering to "weapons", it means all of your weapons. Whether they are in hand, on person, or not yet in existance... although only until the end of your turn.
RAI - who knows.
Balance - outside of Scorching Ray (which has some weird wording all the way around) I don't see a balance issue at all. And even considering Scorching Ray it isn't very unbalanced. +15 damage is only with max caster level effects and by the time you get to that level 15 damage isn't going to seem like much.
Yeah, it is not that strong.
If weird words worked with it, that would be a different matter ;-)
I had a thread about this a short time ago:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5gah?Arcane-Strike-to-Rays#1
I wouldn't say there was any consensus though.
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Davor, this officially recieves the Lune seal of approval. ...and I already have a build in mind for it. I'm curious though, what did you have in mind for this?
Sound Striker Bard. +2 to 6 rays at level 6, increasing as you level every level, and every 5 levels, up to an extra 100 damage at level 20 (1/2 on a save per ray).
The sounds I don't think are listed as being rays. Probably wont work unless you can get a dm to say either that they are or that the sounds qualify as weapons.
Davor, this officially recieves the Lune seal of approval. ...and I already have a build in mind for it. I'm curious though, what did you have in mind for this?Sound Striker Bard. +2 to 6 rays at level 6, increasing as you level every level, and every 5 levels, up to an extra 100 damage at level 20 (1/2 on a save per ray).
Doesn't work:
1. It's not a spell, but a supernatural ability. The quotes above reference only spells.2. They are no rays, another reason arcane strike does not apply. Just because they use ranged touch attacks does not make them rays.
So everything is still fine :-)
As I mentioned above: if it did work it would be really overpowered to allow it :-P
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Davor, this officially recieves the Lune seal of approval. ...and I already have a build in mind for it. I'm curious though, what did you have in mind for this?Sound Striker Bard. +2 to 6 rays at level 6, increasing as you level every level, and every 5 levels, up to an extra 100 damage at level 20 (1/2 on a save per ray).Doesn't work:
1. It's not a spell, but a supernatural ability. The quotes above reference only spells.
2. They are no rays, another reason arcane strike does not apply. Just because they use ranged touch attacks does not make them rays.So everything is still fine :-)
As I mentioned above: if it did work it would be really overpowered to allow it :-P
Interesting. I don't know why I had it in my head that you could take weapon focus with touch attacks. Regardless:
1) Arcane Strike doesn't require a ray, nor does it require that it be used with an attack for which you can take Weapon Focus.
2) Whether or not Weird Words is a spell is irrelevant.
IF Arcane Strike can be applied to Rays and Melee Touch spells, it would make sense that it would also apply to ranged touch attacks not specifically labeled "rays".
Interesting. I don't know why I had it in my head that you could take weapon focus with touch attacks. Regardless:
1) Arcane Strike doesn't require a ray, nor does it require that it be used with an attack for which you can take Weapon Focus.
2) Whether or not Weird Words is a spell is irrelevant.
IF Arcane Strike can be applied to Rays and Melee Touch spells, it would make sense that it would also apply to ranged touch attacks not specifically labeled "rays".
1)"Benefit: As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power. For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level."
Arcane strike doesn't require a ray, it requires weapon(s).2)"Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don't have to see the creature you're trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature at which you're aiming."
Rays are treated as ranged weapons. Therefore, arcane strike can apply to them.
Conclusion: To use arcane strike on a spell that deals damage, it must be a ray, as only rays are treated as weapons.
While it isn't important that weird words be a spell, it is important that it is not a weapon, and therefore not eligible to benefit from arcane strike.
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Interesting. I just noticed that Weird Words requires a target, which means it does not, in fact, qualify it as a ray. I also forgot about the 10 word max on it, which also makes me sad. Well, shoot.
Still, I could see an Arcane Trickster getting decent benefit from it, or basically any spellcaster looking to get a little extra oomph! on their rays.
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Conclusion: To use arcane strike on a spell that deals damage, it must be a ray, as only rays are treated as weapons.
While it isn't important that weird words be a spell, it is important that it is not a weapon, and therefore not eligible to benefit from arcane strike.
Personally I feel the conclusion is crap. Is acid arrow affected by precise shot? Point blank shot? If yes then it would also be affected by Arcane Strike.
If you say it's not affected by precise shot, do you have it take penalties if the target is engaged in melee? The only way the ruling would be consistant is if you didn't.
If a level 11 caster uses Scorching ray, does he get to deal +3 damage or +9?
I read somewhere that even though you shoot 3 rays, the fact that it's off the cast of ONE spell means the bonus only gets applied once, similar to sneak attack rules
lol, I thought for a second that when you were talking about "weird words" you were talking about when I said, "Balance - outside of Scorching Ray (which has some weird wording all the way around)"
I was thinking... wtf?! Yeah, then I figured out you were refering to the class ability. It was all quiet amusing in my head, I assure you.
Personally I feel the conclusion is crap. Is acid arrow affected by precise shot? Point blank shot? If yes then it would also be affected by Arcane Strike.
If you say it's not affected by precise shot, do you have it take penalties if the target is engaged in melee? The only way the ruling would be consistant is if you didn't.
Acid arrow creates an arrow made of acid. "An arrow of acid springs from your hand and speeds to its target."
Arrows are weapons, so yes, it is effected by precise shot, point blank shot, and even arcane strike. This is because it is a creation effect, conjuring an arrow out of nothing.
Acid arrow: "School conjuration (creation) [acid]"
Magic section: "create objects or effects on the spot (creation)"
Weird words is supernatural, does not create a weapon, is not a weapon, and therefore, cannot be used with arcane strike.
Furthermore, yes, ray spells get the -4 ranged attack into melee penalty without point blank shot. The fact that they target touch AC usually negates this pretty well.
Hmm, that is a good question.
Since they each get an attack roll, each has the possibility of a critical hit. They're separate attacks, so each ray gets +3. Yet another reason for scorching ray to provoke for each ray fired.
Hmm, that is a good question.
Since they each get an attack roll, each has the possibility of a critical hit. They're separate attacks, so each ray gets +3. Yet another reason for scorching ray to provoke for each ray fired.
Arcane strike, if you let it count for rays, would probably give the bonus on all the rays since they are independent "weapons"
I agree with that. I also agree that it adds further credability to each ray from a Scorching Ray as provoking an AoO.
Did I mention that Scorching Ray has weird words?
I agree with that. I also agree that it adds further credability to each ray from a Scorching Ray as provoking an AoO.
Did I mention that Scorching Ray has weird words?
yes.
and yes.and you seem to like the weird words/wording joke ;-P
Well, I brought that up because I've played Arcane Trickster with Scorching Ray as the main spell
These are the concensus we came to on our game:
Scorching ray requires the cast of just ONE Spell, so as such, even though it gives you 3 attacks, it still counts as one for the purpose of abilities and such
This meant that
- Only one target may be affected by sneak attack per cast.
- Only one SR roll needs to be made if all the rays hit one target (Multiple targets require multiple rolls)
- Energy resistance is applied only once if the creature with ER is hit by all 3 rays. if 3 creatures are hit by rays, and each has ER, apply separately
- Arcane Strike affects only ONE ray (your choice)
- Inspire courage affects only ONE ray (your choice)
- Point blank shot and similar feats affect only ONE ray
The Energy Resistance thing was the most controversial: But ultimately the choices were either "each ray is separate and as such gets feat/bonuses to each ray" or "all rays are part of ONE spell, so ER applies once only". Given that everything is resistant (if not immune) to fire, i went with that
I'll just interject that whatever you fire from a ray is magical anyway, so it doesn't benefit from that part of the feat. Most rays avoid the DR rules because they are energy damage. I cannot imagine the bonus damage to be that relevant for rays either.Well, for scorching ray it would be +15 damage. Not too bad :-)
Also, your spiritual weapon or flame blade just got much better...
I'm not seeing how your getting +15 damage. As I figure it it would be +1 per weapon attack. So with a maximum of 3 rays it would be +3.
I can see this affecting a ray, since it says "your weapons for 1 round" and this would affect weapons you aren't wielding yet, like a two-weapon fighting, quick-drawing dagger thrower.
