Most of the time this question is easy.
But if players are negotiating and one party suddenly decides to attack when does combat start before that attack or after it?
If one party decided to attack initiative should be rolled before the attack is rolled.
There are no surprise attacks barring GM intervention or a hiding enemy. If the attacking party wants to roll a bluff check to pretend like they want to talk I might allow that, but I don't think that is an actual rule.
Are there any attacks out of combat?
Except for I suppose traps.
There are no out of combat attacks other than traps.
If one party decided to attack initiative should be rolled before the attack is rolled.
There are no surprise attacks barring GM intervention or a hiding enemy. If the attacking party wants to roll a bluff check to pretend like they want to talk I might allow that, but I don't think that is an actual rule.
That can lead to very strange results,
PC: "Ok, screw it, I'm quickdrawing my sword and stab him"
GM: "Ok, roll initiative. Oh... NPC wins initiatve. He reacts faster than you and casts a spell and fireballs you."
PC: "Guards! I'm getting attacked unprovoked here!"
It basicly just turned the original aggresor now into the perceived defender.
I think thats something that should allow a surprise round. Sure the enemies are aware of each other. But apperenlty not everyone is aware the other ones are enemies.
I would only let the characters that decide to initiate the attack have a surprise round. So if the rogue decides to stab in the middle of the negotiation with the bard, the bard might not get to act, while the rogue obviously does.
Guards on either side that watch out for stuff like that obviously should get to act as well.
No it didn't. If you start to reach for the sword, and you lose initiative then the person just "out quicked" you. You can might try to bluff later and say the other person over reacted, but the aggressor is still the aggressor
By the rules you can't just get a surprise round by deciding to go first.
From a verisimilitude point of view everyone is most likely a trained warrior. Barring strange circumstances I doubt they completely trust you anyway or they would not even be armed, and they would probably expect for the PC's to be unarmed also.
I think if you got quickdraw or make a slight of hand to draw the dagger without anyone seeing it, then you should.
Well ok, I don't really want to make it a rule. As I said, guards on either side look out for just that and might be able to react too.
Or just make it a surprise round with everyone acting, so quick-draw characters get to attack, while slower ones are still fumbling with their swords.
Having quickdraw just means you can draw your weapon faster that most people. It does not make you quicker in other areas. A spell caster should still be able to throw a spell at you since the attack from the weapon, and the spell are both standard actions.
its the same problem I always have with flat footed rule.
two guys standing 50 feet away from each other, weapons drawn, clearly hostile and calling each other names.
one guy gets up set at that last mama joke can charge 50 feet and hit the other guy flat footed because the other one lost the initiative roll and did not act IN COMBAT yet.
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I'd say the character who takes the first action gets a surprise round, then everybody rolls initiative and the actual combat begins.
On the other hand, you could also say that any guards worth their money will always ready an attack (or a "move to shield boss") for someone taking an offensive action (they can even take a 5ft step when needed).
So maybe it's actually better if you have everybody roll initiative, count guards and the offender(s) as aware, and have any guards with a higher initiative take the ready action.
That way, you have a surprise round in which the offender goes first, triggering the actions of some guards, then anyone else who "saw it coming" gets to act. It's regular initiative round after that, with all the guards acting right after whomever had triggered them.
You could also roll initiative at the start of the conversation, have guards ready all the time while everyone else takes "turns" discussing stuff until someone decides to attack.
I would allow for the defending person a sense motive roll to avoid surprise ... that being said, if I recall correctly, a surprise round only allows for one standard action.
If the sense motive roll succeeds, roll init as usual. If the roll fails, the aggressor its a surprise round action with the victem being flat footed. After that, initial is rolled and no one is flat footed.
I'm going to accept for now that this is true "There are no out of combat attacks other than traps."
Then after all combatants roll initiative. we must determine which characters are aware of their opponents and this also means to be aware that your opponents are now your opponents.
Usually I would have done this with Perception checks. I can understand using Sense Motive as gourry187 suggested but what would you make the DC?
Sense Motive: Hunch ... this use of the skill involves making a gut assassment of the social situation ... DC 20
That's why Han shot first
If one party decided to attack initiative should be rolled before the attack is rolled.
There are no surprise attacks barring GM intervention or a hiding enemy. If the attacking party wants to roll a bluff check to pretend like they want to talk I might allow that, but I don't think that is an actual rule.
I agree; unless the defending party really had no reason to expect a potential attack, no surprise for you. ("Say, those ARE nice dates. How much for SWORD TO THE FACE!") And some parties pretty much always have reason to expect a potential attack, such as a (remotely competent) guard on duty, so no automatic quick-draw on the guard. If your character is the kind that should get away with sneak-attacking the guard in mid-conversation, then he ought to win initiative and catch him flat-footed anyway. Alternately, someone hiding in the bushes could initiate the attack; they would get to act in a surprise round, and if the guards had good reason to believe that you weren't affiliated with that party, you might also get to act during the surprise round.
In short, it's a situational thing. Can't count on mechanics to settle everything.
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If the sense motive roll succeeds, roll init as usual. If the roll fails, the aggressor its a surprise round action with the victem being flat footed. After that, initial is rolled and no one is flat footed.
That's not the way it works according to RAW - everybody is flat footed until they get to take their first action in combat. So if you didn't get to act in the surprise round you're still going to be flat footed until your initiative comes up.
When one party decides to attack another while in a social setting (non-ambush) I start it by rolling initiative before the attack and go with the initiative order.
Reasoning: Everyone is aware of everyone else. There is no surprise. The initiative order decides who is the fastest at the draw. So one side may decide to attack but their opponent had a better initiative (read:saw that sneaky fool trying to back stab him) and gets the jump. The only way I would rule a surprise round in this situation is to houserule a bluff check to hide their motives vs the opponents sense motive.