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Short Story:
All of my players came to the consensus that they didn’t want to play kingmaker anymore.
Long Story:
I’ve been playing since 2nd edition. I’ve almost always been the GM. Usually campaigns that I start tend to end quickly(one to three sessions.)
I decided that I wanted to run a Campaign for real. If I was going to get serious about this I would have to not fall into any of the pitfalls that hurt other sessions.
Problems:
Not knowing the Adventure well enough.
Not knowing the rules well enough.
Slowness in drawing out maps.
Backstabbing Players.
Must learn to say no to players.
Once I GMed players through 30 sessions. I made up the campaign world. I stayed closer to the rules. I used Transparency and permanent marker to draw my maps. I gave the players an in campaign world reason to cooperate. And I didn’t let players play fairy princesses or samurais that don’t know common. The only reason why this campaign ended was because I graduated and had to move.
I was very proud of that campaign but I still wasn’t happy because the only reason why I was sticking to the adventure was because I had become really good at coming up with stuff over the years(Also I’m an actor.)
So I purchased and read each of the Kingmaker APs. This was a challenge for me because amongs other learning disabilities I am also dyslexic. I really liked them. This AP fixed one of the biggest problems I’ve had with adventures, which was that they tended to lead the players along a fairly linear path.
One of the other aspects that I noticed slowed down or stopped game play was that players didn’t seem to keep track of who had which item or whether or not their character was encumbered or not.
I made a google doc containing each and every item in the first Kingmaker AP so that I could easily cut and past items into another Google Doc so players could keep track of items.
Transparencys and Perminate marker was a pain in the but so I instead inported all of the maps into a program called Maptools.
I found some players and we started playing. I had played with these players before. They had really liked how I use to play where I was pulling my hair out coming up with stuff.
One of them complained after the second session. I was running them through a number of random encounters and they didn’t roll anything what was much of a threat, but mostly he was complaining because I had asked them to pick traits that actually fit with the characters they were playing.
There was a little weaseling and whining the type of thing I experienced in the past when players were trying to stop playing.
One player suggested that he run a session on alternate weeks and I this sounded great to me because I do like to play aswell and It would give me more time to prepare for my sessions.
So we starting playing his Campaign and we finaly get to the end of the first Kingmaker AP and I get this email.
“A lot of us in your game have been thinking, and we've come to a consensus. We just don't like Kingmaker and we're not sure how much longer we can play it. But we do appreciate you wanting to run a game and we have come up with an alternative. We would like to invite you to run us in Second Darkness. I can give you all six books, plus the players guide. Would you be willing to take a look at these books? ***** and I are the last hold-outs in Kingmaker, but even the two of us are tiring of the modules. Let us know what you think.”
Honestly the thought of starting over (reading six more APs) and abandoning all of the work I have put into Kingmaker sickens me.
Agreed. Some further chat is needed as to why they don't like KM (one of the more popular Adventure Paths). Also note that Second Darkness can be very rail-roady sometimes and it's written for 3.5, increasing the amount of prep time for you.
I initially thought it was a little cowardly to tell you via e-mail about jacking in the campaign but this saved you from going 'og..all right then!' without thinking about it.
Gut feeling? They want to play drow. Sick, nasty, overpowered drow. One player already knows the campaign (he owns the books...don't tell me he hasn't read them).
It's dissappointing they want to abandon the campaign but what can you do. I'd just play for a while, recharge the batteries until you're ready to DM again. And if they want you to do SD then insist on the same standards of player creation. (And do not let them play drow, or evil elves...they'll try and 'transform' to drow).
Alternatively, find another group if possible, who'll want to play KM.
Cheers
Mark
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I agree with what has been said so far, especially the point that Mark has made about the one who owns the modules. First thing as stated is finding out what they players want out of the game. What key moments of the past they enjoyed, and of course why they don't like Kingmaker.
Second is creating a rule set that everyone knows beforehand. An example is what you have mentioned about the players not keeping track of encumbrance or who has what item. It is for you to determine how you want to handle it. The rule I have is if the item isn't on your sheet, then you don't have it, period. If nobody in the group has the item, then the group left it wherever it was found. The responsibility at that point lies with the players as a GM you can never make assumptions. For encumbrance you can either get rid of it, or devise a program to assist you in keeping track of it. I recommend one of the third party software packages that are out there, like The One Sheet or Hero Lab. Takes a lot of the guess work out of character sheets.
One of them complained after the second session. I was running them through a number of random encounters and they didn’t roll anything what was much of a threat, but mostly he was complaining because I had asked them to pick traits that actually fit with the characters they were playing.
For the individual who didn't want to pick a trait from the area the options you have are simply to say fine no trait then, or offer alternative traits, but it will require them to create a back story as to why they have those traits. Not all characters need to be from the region.
Overall to me it sounds like you have power gamers on your hand and want the continual encounters with a standard dungeon crawl. Nothing wrong with that. However as you are aware Kingmaker is not designed to be as such. If you decide to continue with the second module (Rivers Run Red), I make this recommendation...
If they still refuse to play Kingmaker then it is time then for you to make the choice. You can either still GM for them with a new adventure, or not. It is that simple. Remember that you are there to have fun as well, and if it feels like a job then you should take a break.
I think you need a very mature, very dedicated group of gamers to make Kingmaker thrive. It's not a standard AP, and it expects the PCs to get invested in things that they normally wouldn't give a hoot about (exploration for its own sake, politics, a feudal economy). Plus (as you have discovered) it's a LOT of work for a GM, so doubly frustrating if the PCs don't buy in.
It sounds like you've been burned a few times before when running Adventure Paths. Why not adopt a more episodic approach to gaming for awhile, at least until (a) your players prove their commitment, and (b) you get a better sense of what sort of gaming they enjoy. Run some stand-alone modules or Pathfinder scenarios.
If it works out and you feel compatible, then you can start fresh at level 1, or else steer the existing campaign into a more epic narrative.
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Karlgamer:
I am one of your players in this game. In fact, I am the one who sent you the email that you quoted.
First thing first. You are our friend, Karlgamer. We've known each other for years and played with each other for years. Our friendship is what's most important and I hate to see you angry or hurt. So, no matter what, let's make sure our friendship endures.
Secondly, I hope I can clear things up for you about your game and why we decided we didn't want to play in it anymore. I hope this isn't too rambling of an email.
After the three or four sessions we played, the game was becoming the same old thing over and over. "You go to the next hex. You encounter these creatures. They attack you." Because of the non-linear layout of the game, it was hard to feel that we were inside a story or a narrative. The game seemed like it was just a glorified board game to us.
We were hoping that another adventure path, one that followed a more linear storyline, would help you create the feeling that we were the heroes of an exciting fantasy tale, rather than just moving pieces around on a board.
Here's another bit of advice meant as constructive criticism and not as an attack. It was obvious you had done a ton of prep for this game. But you spent more time trying to get your laptop to work, trying to get the map up on the screen, and trying to get your spreadsheets to work, than paying attention to the actual game.
I know from experience that GMing is a learning experience. Different players like different things. I've run more than one game that my players didn't like and they quit. It never feels good.
But in our case, we all still want to play with you. And we all still would like you to run us in a game. We just feel that the Kingmaker adventure path does not play to your strengths as a GM just yet.
I suggested you run us in Second Darkness because I already own it and I didn't want you to have to spend money on a whole new adventure path. As a downside, I have read the first two books and know the general overall story of the rest, but I don't remember enough to know every detail. So, although, I would have to "play dumb" when we got to a part I remembered, I thought it would be helpful for you not to buy a whole new set of books. But if you'd like to buy a whole new set of books, then by all means go ahead.
Here is the bottomline. The reason that we quit. We tried to tell you what was bothering us about the game, but we feel you didn't listen. For example, when we went to go see John Carter together, I told you that everyone was not enjoying the game. You basically said that you didn't care and that you had put in a lot of work into the game and you wanted it to succeed. We got nowhere.
When I initially sent you the email quoted above, you said that if we didn't play in your Kingmaker game, you would find new players. You were basically telling us, "it's my way or the highway." We took the highway. But, we share some of the blame too. We should have tried harder to tell you what we wanted as well.
Why don't we do this? Why don't we get together in person. You can tell us what you would like to see from us players. We can tell you the things we enjoy when we play. We can work together to create enjoyable games in the future. All of us in this group love roleplaying games. All of us in the group enjoy each other's company. Let's put aside bad feelings, celebrate friendship and try to make this all better! And even if we can't save your game, let's make sure that we all still remain friends!
Your friend,
Pharmakon, aka Charles
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1) Railroaded into making and player character that fit into what you think they should be.
2) No free will for characters, if a character did something the dm didn't like replacement characters showed up and the character was forced to join the bandits.
3) When the players grumbled and dropped hints that this was not fun it was totally ignored. When all hints were ignored everyone quit.
4) We spent more time trying to the the electronics to work than was reasonable
5) Was not DM and players making a story, it was dm has a story and players just kinda went along with it.
6) Go to hex, fight random beast (like rabid deer, rabbits or wolves) go to next hex.
7) NPCs were all the same guy... bandits just stood there and got slaughtered, BOSS Bandit lord ran and didn't use his uber magic items.
8) Not prepared for players doing something off script.
9) Starting off the game, expecting respect, but not earning it. Then being mad that the players don't want to play means that you need to grow up a little.
10) Starting off a campaign of veterans players and dm''s with an attitude of "my way or no way" is dumb. You betting bring your "A" game because basically you laid down the gauntlet and you were severely lacking. The fact that you got 3 or 4 sessions in was everyone being nice and hoping you would come around.
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Pharmakon:
After the three or four sessions we played, the game was becoming the same old thing over and over. "You go to the next hex. You encounter these creatures. They attack you." Because of the non-linear layout of the game, it was hard to feel that we were inside a story or a narrative. The game seemed like it was just a glorified board game to us.
I pretty much remember each and every session(spoilers)
First session was very linear. The only Problems we had during this session were because of Nate. There were a bunch of player interactions and storyline. I believe you went straight to the thorn river camp.
Nate decided to rolled up a new character.
The second session was crazy because we had like six players. Kingmaker is designed for four but I didn't fret because I knew that some players would be absent on occasion. Kingmaker is actually great for sessions where players have to be absent(You can pretend there off doing there royal tasks). I believe that you guys Killed the mites and befriended the kobolds In this session. You also met Davik Nettles. Crazy Player interactions(including a old fashion Shakespearean letter swap ) and plenty of storyline.
Nate decided to rolled up his next character.
Third session introduce another player. This session was pretty much just about completing Wanted Posters. I think you got the radishes and Tuskgutter and ran into the bear traps. You also found the The Elk Temple(I had Nates first character kill Jhod Kavken as he probably would have if they happened to meet on the road. I had you find Jhod Kavken's journal mentioning the temple)(I had plan for nates character in a later AP :D)
After this session I asked players to look at there traits and make sure they match there characters. I'm find with players liberally interpreting most flavor text. After all flavor text arn't rules but it states:
Yet a character trait isn't just another kind of power you can add on to your character—it's a way to quantify (and encourage) building a character background that fits into your campaign world.
In response I got back a message form Joey. In the message was similar to what you have quoted:
"You go to the next hex. You encounter these creatures. They attack you."
It also had a link to a forum post. I read that forum(I wish I had a link to it.) I read the forum and to my surprise the OP wasn't complaining about the same things Joey was complaining about. In fact I believe he said the first to AP were great. He seemed to mostly be complaining about the Cavalier.
I decided that I would do much less random encounters(which I had already informed the players was just to get them some more exp) but in the end I was pretty sure that this was Joey complaining because he wasn't getting his way. After all he had the Pioneer Trait from the Kingmaker Players guide and he was playing his character as a mysterious Genghis Khan type character from the far east?!? I'm not even sure this world has a far east?
Nate(who we all know didn't want to play from the very beginning) suggest to me that I spice things up a bit with an Ambush. So the forth session was mostly that ambush(featuring Nates second abandoned character) and fighting the staglord. Sadly Scotts character died from one well place staglord arrow. The fight was long and tough but you finished the first Kingmaker AP!!! Woot.
It took only four sessions.
Then we played in your campaign(I'm perfectly willing to play the way you and the guys are use to... I did.).
Your first sessions mostly consisted of a bunch of interactive cut scenes and two combats. Tons of storytelling, tons of roleplaying and tons of players finding way to insult/annoy others characters. To be honest this isn't my style of play(as I know mine might not be yours) it is clear that you have very little respect for the rules(that's dangerous for players who are depending on them.) Still I played. You're my friends and although this it wasn't my style of play I knew you guys like it and I went along.
We did the kingdom building stuff on an off session. Several of the player expressed uninterested and I didn't want to force it upon them so you me and Trina got together. I think you guys had a lot of fun because what was suppose to be only one year of kingdom building became two years and one month.
During my next session two players were missing(three technically.) You guys mostly went back and did some missions from the first AP. I was really hoping you would stumble upon the unicorn(It has ties to the overall story line.) You rescued some gnomes. You befriended a Boggard(It was a little difficult.) You got attack by random trolls. You ran away from them(thank goodness). You explored a lonely barrow and were driven away by bats. That session. The last lesson I suppose ended short. I think Trina had something to do or.
Then we had your next game. Since all of our character are famous or infamous of course every time we meet any group of people they have to get all star struck. I swear half of that session was "Ohh, you're that famous Harrower" "Oh, it's Golden throat the bard." "Arn't you Master urchin?"
And then there was the part where my father sent me a tweet(urgent come quick) and I was ambushed. I keep thinking: "Boy if I hadn't picked vanish as one of my spells I would be dead right now"
I think the rest of the missions was just players enchanting monsters.
What did we have like one encounter that whole session and we tried to retreat. Me and the bard got captured.
Once again I don't really like your style of play but hey: If people are willing to play it my way, why not play it there way. Right?
In the end I honestly don't think Kingmaker is what you disliked. I think it's my style of GMing and I don't believe that another AP will fix that.
If you think that another adventure will fix it well then you're in luck because you've just started the next Kingmaker AP! Rivers Run Red! Woot! I'm really excited to see how Duchess Eliyana deals with the loggers! Perhaps Daven will finally become a Swordlord? Will Zato Kill the Old Beldame? Will Duke Vesnic get it on with Lily Teskertin? Will Sneg eat Old Crackjaw?
I world may never know.
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Starting off a campaign of veterans players and dm''s with an attitude of "my way or no way" is dumb. You betting bring your "A" game because basically you laid down the gauntlet and you were severely lacking. The fact that you got 3 or 4 sessions in was everyone being nice and hoping you would come around.
Everyone? I'm not dumb enough to know that you were the one with the biggest problems. Let's be honest. You didn't get things your way and you don't like that. That was obvious for the first session with you.
I know you typically like to mame and slaughter everything you come across. I've played with you before.
I never stopped you from playing your character. Never.
I never made anyone give up there character. Never.
I never wanted a single character to change. Ever.
(Nate decided to roll up two new characters. I never made him or pressured him. Ask him. Someone else might have.)
(Jason decided to roll up a new character because you befriend the Kobolds)
Honestly, a lot of them problem seems to be with some of the characters befriending Kobolds and other monster races.
Zato "ah, we should kill them!" right? Is this not what you said.
Forgive me for paying more attention to the players that didn't want to rape and pillage.
But I never stopped you from doing anything. I did ask "are you really going to do that?"
Because to be honest it seems a little childish to just stab everything.
Hey, if that's the game you like to play that's cool. You all could have gotten together and decided to be evil. I'm sorry if you couldn't convince the other players to do that with you.
Anyway it doesn't matter because I won't be playing with you anymore hatch.
Problem solved. :)
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Starting off a campaign of veterans players and dm''s with an attitude of "my way or no way" is dumb. You betting bring your "A" game because basically you laid down the gauntlet and you were severely lacking. The fact that you got 3 or 4 sessions in was everyone being nice and hoping you would come around.Everyone? I'm not dumb enough to know that you were the one with the biggest problems. Let's be honest. You didn't get things your way and you don't like that. That was obvious for the first session with you.
I know you typically like to mame and slaughter everything you come across. I've played with you before.
I never stopped you from playing your character. Never.
I never made anyone give up there character. Never.
I never wanted a single character to change. Ever.
(Nate decided to roll up two new characters. I never made him or pressured him. Ask him. Someone else might have.)
(Jason decided to roll up a new character because you befriend the Kobolds)Honestly, a lot of them problem seems to be with some of the characters befriending Kobolds and other monster races.
Zato "ah, we should kill them!" right? Is this not what you said.Forgive me for paying more attention to the players that didn't want to rape and pillage.
But I never stopped you from doing anything. I did ask "are you really going to do that?"
Because to be honest it seems a little childish to just stab everything.
Hey, if that's the game you like to play that's cool. You all could have gotten together and decided to be evil. I'm sorry if you couldn't convince the other players to do that with you.
Anyway it doesn't matter because I won't be playing with you anymore hatch.
Problem solved. :)
Wow! It takes all kinds of players and gms to make this most awesome of a hobby fun. If it's not fun any more just go your separate ways. No need to get personal even though I understand why peoples feelings get hurt. Gming is very time consuming and sometimes 'work' -- just to make printed material 'fit' each group can be challenging. Remember that at heart this is a GAME that when everyone is having fun EVERYONE WINS! -- Just my two cents. Carry on!
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Wow! It takes all kinds of players and gms to make this most awesome of a hobby fun. If it's not fun any more just go your separate ways. No need to get personal even though I understand why peoples feelings get hurt. Gming is very time consuming and...
Agreed. I think Charles and I will continue to be friends. Perhaps not gaming friends. I don't know.
As for hatch and I: we really never need to be around each other again so that's simple.
Nate's my best friend. He didn't want to play from the get go and so I'm indefinitely not blaming him.
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Read some reviews of Second Darkness. ;)
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Or in person. But yes, there's pretty much no reason to continue airing dirty laundry in public.
Ya, you're right.
Me and Pharmakon were starting to talk this over facebook.
I posted here because I wanted to talk to people about this that weren't my players.
I posted it on the Paizo forums because my players never mentioned frequenting this site and I'm still pretty sure they don't(or didn't).
I also made it a point not to mention anyone's name in my first post.
I posted it on the Kingmaker forums so I could talk to other Kingmaker GMs about it. For the most part Kingmaker players shouldn't be here because of all of the spoilers that are thrown about.
I was really having a hard time getting to bed that night and I wanted to get some things off my chest to some fellow GM's(I knew I had a lot of Granite to cut in the morning.)
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I posted here because I wanted to talk to people about this that weren't my players.
I posted it on the Paizo forums because my players never mentioned frequenting this site and I'm still pretty sure they don't(or didn't).
I also made it a point not to mention anyone's name in my first post.
I posted it on the Kingmaker forums so I could talk to other Kingmaker GMs about it. For the most part Kingmaker players shouldn't be here because of all of the spoilers that are thrown about.
I was really having a hard time getting to bed that night and I wanted to get some things off my chest to some fellow GM's(I knew I had a lot of Granite to cut in the morning.)
We've all been there where we want to get stuff off our chest. And you did right, not mentioning names.
Once the players showed up and became involved, it just became a different thing entirely, and that's really the thing that needs to be else where.
I hope you're all able to work it out, I know how it is to watch a gaming group dissolve. I play pbp exclusively now days (to my disappointment). Best of luck to all involved.
I hope you all can work it out. My group(s)-- I'm running 2 through it--- Love it. I enjoy running it. It's too bad your group didn't enjoy it. It has a lot hours of enjoyment packed in this path.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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This is a classic reason why there needs to be caution when you post an issue you are having at the table. You never know when someone else at that table will show up and respond.
Public rants and venting can and will cause more harm then approaching people in private and addressing the issue civilly.
Why did you use my name in your post????
So if your game was so good why did everyone quit?
The only person who got angry and made it a personal vendetta is you. We just all quit and started playing a new game in which you were invited to play in. In which each session you have gotten mad at the other players for perceived personal slights and injustices. Now we are forced to play at someone else's house because of your attitude.
Your best bet would to apologize for being a selfish jerk. You really don't know any of us and are being presumptuous to assume you can treat people badly just because they are suppose to be nice to you.
I politely suggest you just move this to private messages.
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I'm not sure the DM related all the good things that are ins tore for those in Kingmaker. It does take a while to get to the more meaty bits, but one has to have the desire to master a kingdom, not merely dungeon crawl. Our group has one (who's the Baron) that really cares at all about improving th towns. The others like to kill things, and Kingmaker allows all. If the players above have no intrest in setting down roots and taming a wilderness, then they never will enjoy KM to its potential. A heavy handed DM might not be best for this...then again a power gamer player who likes to be evil despite his professed alignment won't do well here either...
Short Story:
All of my players came to the consensus that they didn’t want to play kingmaker anymore.Not knowing the Adventure well enough.
Not knowing the rules well enough.
Slowness in drawing out maps.
Backstabbing Players.
Must learn to say no to players.
Kingmaker is one of those campaigns people will either love or hate for the most part. It is repetitious, but it is unique. I don't know what the players did not did not like so I can't speak on that.
As for Second Darkness, that is up to you since you will have to do all the conversion. In any event I think running something that is not so much as a sandbox game as KM might work.
If you are considering running SD or any other AP then I would read the books of that AP, but only plan for the first 2 books. Once the player are committed then do the other books.
You need for them to tell you why they did not like KM so you don't hit the same hurdles again.
PS:I have not read past the first post.
Second Darkness does not have a good reputation around here. If you do run something I would suggest it not be SD. It is not terrible, but you can do better.
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I'm glad you don't MIND the players doing something that doesn't follow script. Your missing my whole point, the players didn’t want those traits, they wanted to make there own characters and play them how they felt they should and to have fun.
Actually to be fair that is the entire point of the campaign traits ie there supposed to be used to make your character fit in.
I've cleaned up this thread a little bit. Also, it is locked.
Seeking actual advice is good. Posting a rant is less good. Airing your laundry is public is not at all helpful.
Also, please flag it and move on.