How do Armored Defense, adamantine armor and the Stalwart feat interact?

[kagenotora]

Hi i'm currently stuck trying to create a character under the theme of the ultimate bodyguard, able protect allies while still be there to talk about it in the end. it was going nicely untill i got stuck with the interaction of those three things:

• Armored Defense (Ex): At 5th level, an armor master gains DR 1/— when wearing light armor, DR 2/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 3/— when wearing heavy armor. At 19th level, this damage reduction increases to DR 4/— when wearing light armor, DR 8/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 12/— when wearing heavy armor. This damage reduction stacks with that provided by adamantine armor, but not with other forms of damage reduction. This damage reduction does not apply if the armor master is stunned, unconscious, or helpless. This ability replaces weapon training 1 and 3, and armor mastery.

• a good'ol adamantine fullplate

• Stalwart
  You adopt a defensive stance that allows you to absorb and redirect hits.
  Prerequisites: Diehard, Endurance, base attack bonus +4.
  Benefit: While using the total defense action, fighting defensively action, or Combat Expertise, you can forgo the dodge bonus to AC you would normally gain to instead gain an equivalent amount of DR, to a maximum of DR 5/—, until the start of your next turn. This damage reduction stacks with DR you gain from class features, such as the barbarian's, but not with DR from any other source. If you are denied your Dexterity bonus to AC, you are also denied this DR.

does stalwart stack with armored defense who stack with an ada armor
or stalwart stack with armored defense but exclude the ada armor ?
or does armored defense exclude the possibility of stacking stalwart with it?
an other possibility i didn't thought of ?

thanks for your help and have a nice ... whatever part of the day it is when you took time to read this :)

PS: sorry for my crappy English it's not my native language so i'm not that good at anything else than reading it :/

[Tarantula]

Armored defense and adamantine full plate stack, because armored defense says they do. Armored defense says that is the only thing it stacks with.

Stalwart says it stacks with DR from class features, which normally would mean it would stack with armored defense. Again, armored defense then says it does not stack with anything except for adamantine armor, so they don't stack.

[kagenotora]

unfortunately that's one way to read it which is why i have an headache (and my whole group along with it) since one could also read

Quote:

This damage reduction stacks with that provided by adamantine armor, but not with other forms of damage reduction.

as "this ability is an exception to the general rule of DR not stacking when in presence of an adamantine armor" since without this exception the whole sentence might not have been there. :/

PS:
to be honest neither of those two (Tarantula's and the one i stated above) where my initial thought, which was that stalwart and the adamantine armor were mutually exclusive (both stack with armored defense individually but not both at the same time).

[Glutton]

I'd say stalwart (and improved stalwart) stack with Armored Defense, however you would then not get the DR from the adamantine armor if the stalwart DR was higher (ei: you get dr 8/- from improved stalwart, 3/- from armor 12/- from armored defense, your DR would be 20/-)

Armored defense is a class ability, stalwart stacks with it.
Adamantine armor triggers Armored defense, but stalwart does not stack with it.
Stalwart is a higher DR than adamantine fullplate, therefor by damage reduction rules you use the higher value.

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

This is a bit of a dilemma. Armored Defense says it only stacks with adamantine armor DR but not other forms of DR. Stalwart does say it stacks with other class abilities, which Armored Defense is one of, but not adamantine armor DR.

Armored Defense and Adamantine armor is obviously good to go. Based on the principle that specific overrides general, Stalwart would be interpreted as: "This damage reduction stacks with DR you gain from class features, [unless there is a specific rule against stacking in the class feature]" which would prevent stacking. However, it's a bit of a candidate for a FAQ.

In the absence of an errata that says that Stalwart and Armored Defense stack, your best bet for maximum DR under RAW is probably Armored defense and Adamantine armor, which with heavy armor would give you a DR of 6/-.

You could also use the Stalwart Defender prestige class, which would stack with either Adamantine armor or the Stalwart feat, but not both. Taking the defense power of increased damage reduction twice, wearing adamantine heavy armor, would give DR 10/- at Stalwart Defender level 10. Since you'd need 7 levels of a full BAB class before taking the prestige class, This would give you it at character level 17, as opposed to DR 15/- at level 19 for armored fighter, but it would also increase steadily from character level 12 onward. It should also be noted that the stalwart defender takes no penalty to attack from being in a defensive stance, but instead gets a +2 from increased strength. If you also take the Stalwart feat, this can combine with the DR from this class feature, and use combat expertise to take a -5 penalty to attack (which in defensive stance would be only a net of -3) in order to get a DR of 15/-.

[Glutton]

srd wrote:

If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.

Armored Defense = A

Adamantine Armor = B
Stalwart = C

A stacks with B
A stacks with C
B does not stack with C

So your DR is A + (B or C) depending on which is greater.

[HaraldKlak]

Glutton wrote:

srd wrote:

If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.

Armored Defense = A

Adamantine Armor = B
Stalwart = C

A stacks with B
A stacks with C
B does not stack with C

So your DR is A + (B or C) depending on which is greater.

But your premise that A stacks with C is not necessarily true.

The stacking of DR:
- Generel rule: DR does not stack.
- Stalwart: This DR stacks with class abilities.
- Armored Defense: This DR stacks with Adamantine, but nothing else.

While Stalwart is written as to stack with Armored Defense (since it is a class ability), that specific class ability have written specifically that stacking is not allowed (when it does not come from adamantine). As such it falls to the rule of generel vs specific.

Mind you, it is a corner case where the intent of the rules isn't clear. So a developer comment would be useful (however it might be unlikely, since GMs can rule either way around without breaking the game).

[kagenotora]

well at least i know that i'm not the only one getting an headache with this :/

[Lathiira]

I agree with tarantula. Specific rules trump general rules. Stalwart may stack with class abilities; this is a general rule. Armored Defense says adamantine armor is the only DR it stacks with; this is a specific rule. So the two can't play nice together, sorry.

[DJEternalDarkness]

I agre with tarantula and Glutton.

[kagenotora]

Lathiira wrote:

I agree with tarantula. Specific rules trump general rules. Stalwart may stack with class abilities; this is a general rule. Armored Defense says adamantine armor is the only DR it stacks with; this is a specific rule. So the two can't play nice together, sorry.

I will no say that Tarantula's post necessarily wrong but yours on the other hand seems quite wrong since you call a specific rule general ,no two DR stack that's the general rule the problem here comes from two specific rule that contradict each other.

[Lathiira]

kagenotora wrote:

Lathiira wrote:

I agree with tarantula. Specific rules trump general rules. Stalwart may stack with class abilities; this is a general rule. Armored Defense says adamantine armor is the only DR it stacks with; this is a specific rule. So the two can't play nice together, sorry.

I will no say that Tarantula's post necessarily wrong but yours on the other hand seems quite wrong since you call a specific rule general ,no two DR stack that's the general rule the problem here comes from two specific rule that contradict each other.

If you want to look at it that way, then it's a hierarchy of rules. The most general is that DR doesn't stack; then we have specific rules for different types of DR. Stalwart is specific, it stack with class abilities. Armored Defense is more specific, stacking only with adamantine armor. Therefore, I would amend my statement to say that the most specific rule wins.

[kagenotora]

Lathiira wrote:

kagenotora wrote:

Lathiira wrote:

I agree with tarantula. Specific rules trump general rules. Stalwart may stack with class abilities; this is a general rule. Armored Defense says adamantine armor is the only DR it stacks with; this is a specific rule. So the two can't play nice together, sorry.

I will no say that Tarantula's post necessarily wrong but yours on the other hand seems quite wrong since you call a specific rule general ,no two DR stack that's the general rule the problem here comes from two specific rule that contradict each other.

If you want to look at it that way, then it's a hierarchy of rules. The most general is that DR doesn't stack; then we have specific rules for different types of DR. Stalwart is specific, it stack with class abilities. Armored Defense is more specific, stacking only with adamantine armor. Therefore, I would amend my statement to say that the most specific rule wins.

if things were this clear cut it wouldn't be a pain in the ass like that, the problem is that while you read "Armored Defense stacks only with adamantine armor."

one can also read "Armored Defense stacks with adamantine armor but act like a normal DR with the rest."
one could also ask him self if a "from armor" wasn't forgotten at the end of the sentence " This damage reduction stacks with that provided by adamantine armor, but not with other forms of damage reduction." if this sentence was written with this magical Armor Special Abilitie in mind :
Invulnerability: This suit of armor grants the wearer damage reduction 5/magic.

hell now that i speak about it " This damage reduction stacks with that provided by adamantine armor" doesn't directly refers to the damage reduction from the adamantine part of the armor just any damage reduction provided by an armor made of adamantine. okay that's a stretch but one reading it like that wouldn't be in the wrong i think...

[Maxximilius]

Honestly, I'd just allow it because it is flavorful, and go back to hitting the real, squishy dangerous targets or using touch attack spells instead...

[kagenotora]

Maxximilius wrote:

Honestly, I'd just allow it because it is flavorful, and go back to hitting the real, squishy dangerous targets or using touch attack spells instead...

that is in the case where i let you do so :p not exactly something i plan doing with this PC ^^

but i'm getting side tracked here sorry.

as for the question at hand i guess it's wait for an FAQ or some official input while house ruling it in the mean time seeing as the opinions are as divided here as at my table :/

[godsDMit]

Glutton wrote:

srd wrote:

If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.

Armored Defense = A

Adamantine Armor = B
Stalwart = C

A stacks with B
A stacks with C
B does not stack with C

So your DR is A + (B or C) depending on which is greater.

This.

[Jason Nelson]

Glutton wrote:

srd wrote:

If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.

Armored Defense = A

Adamantine Armor = B
Stalwart = C

A stacks with B
A stacks with C
B does not stack with C

So your DR is A + (B or C) depending on which is greater.

I didn't write Stalwart but did write Armored Defense. While my opinion is in no way an official ruling, it is my opinion that the Glutton here has the correct description of how it works.

AD stacks with the armor.
AD also stacks with Stalwart.
Stalwart does not stack with the armor.

That means you can choose to use AD + armor *OR* AD + stalwart, but the armor and stalwart are both additions to AD, and since they are additions of the same type they overlap and do not stack.

[Morbid Eels]

Sorry for the 5+ years necro here - the FAQ button at the top says this question was "Answered in the errata", but I'm having trouble finding where/what that answer is. Can anyone help?

(Or failing that, would you say Jason Nelson's opinion is the best ruling for this?)