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A thought occurred to me with the Core Assumption and Additional Resources about the Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally line in that if you're required to own the book you draw from, does that mean a Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid or Cleric built entirely out of the Core Rule Book can't use either line if they don't own a Bestiary? Not to mention Wild Shape or any Polymorph related magic as well, that would be a real hit to any prospective Druids.
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Good question, Cieyrin.
Bestiary I is part of the core assumptions, which means that a player can reference that material without having to bring (a) a hardcopy of the book, or (b) a printed-out copy of a legitimately watermarked pdf page.
So, if you want to summon a dire rat, you can go to the prd, find the stats for the dire rat, write 'em down, and bring them to the session. Summon away. When the GM asks for the stats, there you go.
If you want to be versatile and summon whatever is handy at the time, prepare to bring several pages of stats.
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If you read the Guide to PFSOP closely, the Bestiary is not in the Core Assumption, nor it does say that you must own the book:
In order to utilize content from an Additional Resource, a player must have a physical copy of the Additional Resource in question, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of it, or a printout of the relevant pages from it (emphasis mine), as well as a copy of the current version of the Additional Resources list.
Note that the stats for most, if not all, of the creatures in question should be available in the various SRDs. As long as you have a printout of the SRD stats for the critter(s) you plan to use, I suspect that very few DMs would give you a hard time.
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Were someone with time on their hands to work up the statblocks for the standard creatures, with templates, and with augmented versions in the various permutations, I suspect many players and GMs would find this helpful. If doing this, getting someone or two to double check the stats before posting a link would probably ward off oopies.
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Mike's 3PP Monster Summoning Card products
Paizo carries 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming's Monster Summoning cards and Nature's Ally cards in their store. Both are currently on sale. The monster cards come in normal, augmented, fiendish and celestial versions. The SNA animals come in normal & augmented versions.
Back in LG I made my own on index cards with animal pictures from Google Images, then I laminated them. I have since thrown them out, but I still have the files.
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Sorry, LazarX, that won't suffice. It needs to be a PFS-legal copy.
And yes, I just contradicted Mike's post, too. Happens.
You didn't contradict me. I didn't say you didn't have to have copies of the printouts from a watermarked PDF. I was just offering another tool that would allow someone to have an easier reference to looking up stats so they didn't have to adjust for dire and celestial templates on the fly.
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Sorry, LazarX, that won't suffice. It needs to be a PFS-legal copy.
And yes, I just contradicted Mike's post, too. Happens.
Ok Chris, let’s assume someone is using these cards, and you deny them the right to use that creature as written up on the card, so they come back the next session with the Bestiary and prove to you that what’s on the cards is what would come out of the Bestiary, would you then deny them (or anyone) the right to use those cards in future sessions?
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By gum, Mike's right. The GM does not have to have a copy of the Bestiary I with her, so yeah, you need to bring a legal copy (hardcover Bestiary or watermarked pdf's) of the critters you want to summon.
And yes, the GM does have to have Bestiary I. Check the Additional Resources. Second paragraph:
Since the core assumption for Pathfinder Society Organized Play is the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide, and the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, we cannot assume that every Game Master will have the products listed below. As such, it's up to players to bring these items in order to familiarize their Game Masters with the rules.
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How are those things not legal? If I have a paper with the stats of summoned creatures written by hand it's legal, but if it comes from an App or 3rd party it's not? Sorry, that's wrong. Those items listed are citing legal sources and just doing the stat generations for you. Now if they have summons not on the summons list, then you're out of luck and not able to use those, but otherwise there is absolutely no problems with those outside sources.
/This assumes you have the Bestiary 1 on hand as well.
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Mike, it looks like the Guide and the Additional Resources list are inconsistent.
Andrew, smarter people than me can correct me, but I was under the impression that we required a hard-copy of the material, or a water-marked pdf, because we want to make sure that the text is correct and complete. The point is perhaps moot, if we use the Additional Resources list of core assumptions, because the GM has to have the Bestiary I at the table, so we can check if there's any questions. But if someone summons something that's not in Bestiary I, then the player needs to bring the legal source to the table. Saying "that other guy brought the legal source two weeks ago" isn't good enough.
Joseph, did you miss Mike M's post? When I explained that the cards weren't legal, I was using the list of core assumptions in the PFS Guide, instead of the list in the Additional Materials document.
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Since the core assumption for Pathfinder Society Organized Play is the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide, and the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, we cannot assume that every Game Master will have the products listed below. As such, it's up to players to bring these items in order to familiarize their Game Masters with the rules.
You didn't contradict me. I didn't say you didn't have to have copies of the printouts from a watermarked PDF. I was just offering another tool that would allow someone to have an easier reference to looking up stats so they didn't have to adjust for dire and celestial templates on the fly.
I am confused. So, does a player who wants to Summon a creature need to have their own copy of the book/ watermarked pages, or do they not, since it is part of the Core Assumption?
Also, how does this work for Animal Companions/Improved Familiars/ Mounts?
I had assumed that a player would always need their own copy of the book for the appropriate creature, but now Im confused. :(
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Mike, it looks like the Guide and the Additional Resources list are inconsistent.
Andrew, smarter people than me can correct me, but I was under the impression that we required a hard-copy of the material, or a water-marked pdf, because we want to make sure that the text is correct and complete. The point is perhaps moot, if we use the Additional Resources list of core assumptions, because the GM has to have the Bestiary I at the table, so we can check if there's any questions. But if someone summons something that's not in Bestiary I, then the player needs to bring the legal source to the table. Saying "that other guy brought the legal source two weeks ago" isn't good enough.
Joseph, did you miss Mike M's post? When I explained that the cards weren't legal, I was using the list of core assumptions in the PFS Guide, instead of the list in the Additional Materials document.
Is there legal material that expands the summoning lists to include creatures and/or templates from Bestiary 2 and 3?
If so, then I agree, if they want to use a card, they would have to show that they own the book (and perhaps even produce it should you not own it yourself and you want to double check that the cards stats are correct).
But if you, as a GM, have determined that the cards are largely correct, and the player can prove they own Additional Resource books (by having a watermarked printout of the copyright page or cover of said book), then don’t you think it is being a bit officious to disallow the use of the cards?
I mean, if YOU know that the cards are all up to par, then why would you deny their use if the player can prove they own the book in question?
I am confused. So, does a player who wants to Summon a creature need to have their own copy of the book/ watermarked pages, or do they not, since it is part of the Core Assumption?
Also, how does this work for Animal Companions/Improved Familiars/ Mounts?
Not to mention Wild Shape and Animate Dead, among other things.
I think the intention is that the Bestiary is supposed to be in the core assumption, it's just missing in one place.
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I think the intention is that the Bestiary is supposed to be in the core assumption, it's just missing in one place.
Could be, at least for DMs.
For players, frankly, it's probably only truly needed for one class (druid), as well as a few classes which need it if they make certain build or spell choices (e.g., paladin, wizard).
For most classes, unless you decide to use a mount or animal buddy in combat, there's really no need at all for the Bestiary.
Is there legal material that expands the summoning lists to include creatures and/or templates from Bestiary 2 and 3?
There, in fact, is.
2nd Level
...
Elemental (Small)
along with all the other elemental entries pretty clearly allow for the summoning of other elementals, such as the lightning and ice varieties.
I guess looking at the spell it could even stand to be clearer about the fact that it doesn't allow the summoning of ANY sort of small creature with the elemental type, but rather just the fire, mud, etc varieties.
The Guide ver. 3.03:
Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every player has a copy of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and a copy of Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets, A Guide to the Pathfinder Society, and that every Game Master (GM) has the above plus a copy of the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary.
The Guide ver. 4.0:
Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every player has the following.
• Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook
• Pathfinder Society Field Guide
• Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play (this document)Unless noted otherwise in this guide, everything contained in the Core Rulebook and Pathfinder Society Field Guide is legal for Pathfinder Society play. Game Masters and players whose characters utilize creatures from the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary are required to have that reference at the table.
The Guide ver. 4.1:
Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every player has the following resources.
• Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook
• Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide
• Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play (this document)Unless noted otherwise in this guide, everything contained in the Core Rulebook and Pathfinder Society Field Guide is legal for Pathfinder Society play. Game Masters and players whose characters utilize creatures from an approved Additional Resource (see page 4) as companions or familiars are required to have that reference at the table.
A listing of the first Bestiary disappeared completely in just two updates. I know little things can get lost in rewrites, but this is not so little.
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Also, how does this work for Animal Companions/Improved Familiars/ Mounts?
Most of the stats for Animal Companions, Mounts and Eidolons are contained within their respective books, so that shouldn't be a real problem there. Familiars, especially Improved Familiars, are for the most part in the Bestiary, which rather hampers Witches and some Wizards, Sorcerers and Magi.
Could be, at least for DMs.
For players, frankly, it's probably only truly needed for one class (druid), as well as a few classes which need it if they make certain build or spell choices (e.g., paladin, wizard).
For most classes, unless you decide to use a mount or animal buddy in combat, there's really no need at all for the Bestiary.
Summoners lose out a major feature as well, which is the boat I'm riding in at the moment, though my Druid in the wings isn't looking particularly good, either, at the moment.
A listing of the first Bestiary disappeared completely in just two updates. I know little things can get lost in rewrites, but this is not so little.
Indeed, which is why I'm asking about it. Also, given DMs are expected to have a Bestiary at the table, if I'm understanding correctly from the discussion so far, is that sufficient or does the player who wants to use a Summon spell need to have his or her own Bestiary as well? I guess I'm just a bit confused on how the Core Assumption is meant to work, since the Bestiary seems to be part of it but I'm not at all sure now. :/
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Cieyrin, I'm sure most GMs that had a Bestiary on hand would let it slide if you didn't have a copy -- following the ever prevalent rule of "don't be a d**k," in that it would be pretty lame if you had a copy of the book the player needed at the table but refused to let them use it.
However, as the rules stand, because you are using resources out of said book, you need to either have a photocopy of the necessary pages or a physical (not digital) copy of the book itself. You might want to find a friend that has the book and just photocopy the necessary pages -- I have done that for several of my characters and have a sheet or two with their class / awkward feats so when questions come up I don't have to pull out a 450 page tome ;)
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Sarta, I've run into that several times as well. For most characters, that's not a problem, because the spell takes a full round, so we have an entire combat cycle for the player to decide. The trick is the Summoner, for whom summon monster spell-like ability is a standard action.
If the player can't decide in a couple of seconds, I figure the character is equally unsure, and I put that PC in delay, until the player's made a decision and has the stats at hand.
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As a class that has the ability to summon in creatures to be run, it is your duty to your tablemates to have the information at hand.
I have a Master Summoner, which means that I can essentially insta-cast summon monster and bring in my own little ball of fury (or herd animal). I have all the stats for the creatures I can summon (fiendish, celestial, and skeletal [it's a feat]) and I make sure that I know ahead of my turn in combat what I want to summon. Sure there are times that I need to change my tactics and what I'm going to summon in, however, that is where being prepared ahead of time comes into play.
Say I'm planning to bring in 4 fire beetles; the three players ahead of me all step in to melee leaving one open spot; quick change of plan to bring in 1 dire bat and take up that last spot; giving my bat and another player flank and helping. Is it what I wanted to do, no, but it's what makes sense and being prepared allowed me to make that quick switch. I don't have to re-write my stats down or hold the table up while I make the switch.
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Just because a book is listed as core assumption does not alleviate the responsibility of ownership if you are going to use material from it. If you intend to summon monsters you should own a copy (hard or digital) of the Bestiary. Whether or not you use it during the session is up to you. Cheat-sheets, summoning cards, etc are no different than character sheets. As long as you can demonstrate that the information is correct and where it came from, you will be fine, IMO.
Bestiary I being part of the GM core assumption. This is largely due to the fact that monster listings in the scenarios are not complete. Therefore, the GM must have a copy to reference so HE/SHE can run the encounters. This DOES NOT mean that the GM is required to share their Bestiary with the players at the table. Of course, using the GM's copy to verify the accuracy of your cheat sheets should be allowed, but don't expect the GM to give you their book for the entire session so you can freely summon monsters. If you are not prepared to summon monsters using your own materials, you shouldn't be doing it.
There are lots of material that players can get their hands on that will require they own a copy of the originating book. Earn a racial boon, you need to own the book. Want to polymorph/wildshape into a Bestiary II creature, you need to own the book.
The PRD is not listed as a legal resource for PFS. Can you use it for reference? Sure. Does it remove the requirement to own the book? Nope.
I don't understand why things like this need to be such flammable topics. Most of these issues can be resolved with some common sense and consideration to IT'S A GAME. Go play and have fun already.
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As a frequent summoner, my approach is to announce I summon, grab my iPad and pull up a stat block of my desired creature.
There is a third party iPad app for the PRD that has hyperlinks keyed off the SNA description, for those lesser unnatural summoners, there's a listing for the arcane version as well. (insert disclaimer here)
I never have an issue using the PRD. I credit that to Paizo being so awesome! My iPad books weigh less than the hardcover ones. I have been asked to produce a book, and I simply open the pdf and I am done.
I also own the summoning cards, and they are a great option if you don't have a pad of some sort. A pad is a great option for gaming though. (Thats despite failing to convince my wife to wear a Yeoman Rand costume and hand me my iPad.)
When you come down to it, I have land, sea and air frequently called beasts for each level of SNA, the exceptions are easy to add, like the occasional elemental. You should need to summon every type of creature every game.
I miss bison bombing, it was up there with the "wall of iron crushing your head" in the fromage department.
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My real pet peeve with summoning is the number of players who will announce they are going to cast the spell and then simply stare blankly at the list of possible creatures, uncertain what to pick.
If you intend to use the spell, be familiar with how it works, what you can summon, and how to lay your hands on the stats of the summoned creature.
Your goal should be to slow things down as little as possible.
I whole-heartedly agree, I do my homework before a game so if I summon something, I have the stats already to go. I can just flip to the appropriate page in my character binder and they're ready to go. I require that of any players in games I run that dabble in summoning or shapeshifting have the statblocks or changes ready so we don't have slow down while someone looks stats up.
In any case, it sounds like the answer to my question is that any character that wants to summon or polymorph needs to have the appropriate Bestiary, regardless of Core Assumptions, so I'll be rectifying that situation for myself shortly. Thanks. :)