CEO, Goblinworks
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These are variants on the "wouldn't it be cool if "X" means nobody does "X"" problem.Ooh, so you're going for a design without any random reward systems out in the open?
There will be randomness but it varies frequency rather than result.
P.S. shouldn't that be "wouldn't it be cool if "X" means nobody does "Y""?
No.
"Wouldn't it be cool if you could steal purses?" means "nobody will wear purses, so nobody can steal them".
It's the condition in an MMO where the potential to do a thing means that everyone will cease enabling that thing to be doable. If a negative outcome can be avoided it will be avoided.
It's one of the places where human emotion overrides logic in game design, to the detriment of the game design. Observed behavior of large numbers of players reveals that they will illogically avoid pain disproportionate to the loss in a gaming system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Try to keep in mind that idea was presented almost two years ago...@ Nihimon
One thing that I dislike about your idea...
Fair enough. I guess that I don't know if the promised role or roles in those fields will be overlapping or if they could be as distinct as any "class" path: harvester, refiner, crafter, and merchant. I have a worry that if there is a full tree for each of them, that they will be pretty boring if they are "set and forget" or "set to offline".
Totally based on lack of detail. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Materials should have a construction process that should be discoverable but not known by anyone to start with. The process should be guarded by players, because it has value and allows people to corner markets (and the ensuing raiding and spying that goes on as people try to reverse enginner discoveries).If the discovery process can be repeated by following instructions from the internet, then there will very quickly be no more mystery.
This is not necessarily true. My wife and I spent several years playing Saga of Ryzom. In that game you craft with broad categories of items. A sword handle for example can be created from cloth or leather. There was such a range of diversity in the options, each with particular strengths and weaknesses, that the combinations were awesome. Additionally, there was an "organic" modifier that was consistent, but not necessarily strictly numerical that kept even low quality materials as options in the best items.
My wife was a "master Axe crafter" who learned recipes from a guy who spent 2 years playing before we joined. She essentially apprenticed to him. While they played together they continued to refine his recipes. When we quit playing, she had her own secret recipe, people would come to her and ask for axes...specifically because she had a recipe no one else had figured out.
And she still insisted she did not believe her recipe was totally optimized for a the specific focus she was aiming for...3-4 years later.
And, that is an important point, she spent all that time trying to perfect a recipe for a specific build. She would not necessarily know where to start with another build requirement (same weapon) because she would have to learn the optimal combinations, and which created that organic effect, positive or negative. So there was not an optimal high everything...every positive came with some negative. It all came down to the users play style as to which build(s) they liked and would pay for. Recipes become not a matter of simply buying a better BP, but taking the simple BP available to everyone and experimenting with resources to optimize against your needs.
I do not disagree that you can find some good recipes on the internet for items made in Saga of Ryzom, but the nature of the game made good crafters guard their awesome recipes jealously...and more importantly made the nature of awesome subjective, leaving lots of room for variation....and lots of room for many people to be the "best" at what they do.
This is what I hope to see. eventually.
And, Saga of Ryzom's harvesting was without a doubt, the most interesting and engrossing harvesting I have ever seen in a game. Harvesting and Crafting are a few of the areas that game actually got it right...all without minigames.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A question that has been rattling around in my head is what are dedicated crafters supposed to be doing while they wait for their items to pop out of the npc easy bake oven. If all a character's training has gone into crafting skills than they certainly won't be able to head out into the world looking for trouble. I would like to see crafting be a major part of the game not just because it creates items needed for combat but because it is a fun to play the role of a crafter. I understand that combat will always have center stage but there needs to be more to crafting than *click click* "come back in 20 minutes".
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Goblin Squad Member
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A question that has been rattling around in my head is what are dedicated crafters supposed to be doing while they wait for their items to pop out of the npc easy bake oven.
I don't know if you saw this:
Sadly the formatting seems to have exploded all nonstandard characters in one of his site moves, so this is a little hard to read, but Scott Jennings' thoughts on crafting are very salient to our current plans for the crafting system.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
A question that has been rattling around in my head is what are dedicated crafters supposed to be doing while they wait for their items to pop out of the npc easy bake oven.
They'll be paralellizing production. They'll have to be managing streams of resource inputs which often require intermediate crafting steps, or buying those comodities, they'll have to match a production job with access to a facility to make that job which may require getting the raw ingredients to the right place at the right time, and then they'll be liquidating their inventories which will require managing auctions and analyzing market prices which might span several market hubs or conflict zones. Getting their inventory to the right market will require them to either run or outsource logistics and transport.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They'll be paralellizing production. They'll have to be managing streams of resource inputs which often require intermediate crafting steps, or buying those comodities, they'll have to match a production job with access to a facility to make that job which may require getting the raw ingredients to the right place at the right time, and then they'll be liquidating their inventories which will require managing auctions and analyzing market prices which might span several market hubs or conflict zones. Getting their inventory to the right market will require them to either run or outsource logistics and transport.
Sounds delightful. Occupy them with the real tasks of merchants and crafters, rather than some silly minigame. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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A question that has been rattling around in my head is what are dedicated crafters supposed to be doing while they wait for their items to pop out of the npc easy bake oven.They'll be paralellizing production. They'll have to be managing streams of resource inputs which often require intermediate crafting steps, or buying those comodities, they'll have to match a production job with access to a facility to make that job which may require getting the raw ingredients to the right place at the right time, and then they'll be liquidating their inventories which will require managing auctions and analyzing market prices which might span several market hubs or conflict zones. Getting their inventory to the right market will require them to either run or outsource logistics and transport.
Sounds like crafting will be just as engrossing in PfO as it is in the best other games. Just more time to spend on acquisition of materials and liquidation of finished products. It does sound like crafter and merchant will likely be more tied together than separate trees, but maybe there will eventually be room to get more specialized and concentrated in either, if you want. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have recently began playing Fallen Earth as have a few friends. So far I think their crafting system is one of the better I have seen. Gathering resources is a skill improved by gathering and is capped by your own attributes.
And then take melee weapons for example. You start with learning the first skill book which has rudimentary knowledge. Making these things increases your skills, unlocking more weapons from this skill book until you have maxed everything in it. By that point you have the ability to research/write another skill book of your own making that will allow improvements to these weapons and/or make new and different ones.
And they have workshops which decreases the time it takes to craft (settlements?).
Also, my idea would be this. What if crafting something new or hard took some player effort other than gathering what was needed and clicking a button. Maybe a mini-game or something and the results modified the quality of the item. Then you could make it to where a competent sword smith could easily make crude or standard long swords by the dozen with ease (relegated to an apprentice?) but in order to make a master craft long sword he has never attempted before, he would have to do it in game (not logged out) and concentrate on it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sounds like crafting will be just as engrossing in PfO as it is in the best other games. Just more time to spend on acquisition of materials and liquidation of finished products. It does sound like crafter and merchant will likely be more tied together than separate trees, but maybe there will eventually be room to get more specialized and concentrated in either, if you want. :)A question that has been rattling around in my head is what are dedicated crafters supposed to be doing while they wait for their items to pop out of the npc easy bake oven.They'll be paralellizing production. They'll have to be managing streams of resource inputs which often require intermediate crafting steps, or buying those comodities, they'll have to match a production job with access to a facility to make that job which may require getting the raw ingredients to the right place at the right time, and then they'll be liquidating their inventories which will require managing auctions and analyzing market prices which might span several market hubs or conflict zones. Getting their inventory to the right market will require them to either run or outsource logistics and transport.
That is something I have been thinking about with my DT. In the beginning, I will focus on Crafting and being a Merchant. But at some point, I would like to focus/specialize in Crafting only and then form a partnership with another player to sell my wares.
They'll be paralellizing production. They'll have to be managing streams of resource inputs which often require intermediate crafting steps, or buying those comodities, they'll have to match a production job with access to a facility to make that job which may require getting the raw ingredients to the right place at the right time, and then they'll be liquidating their inventories which will require managing auctions and analyzing market prices which might span several market hubs or conflict zones. Getting their inventory to the right market will require them to either run or outsource logistics and transport.Sounds delightful. Occupy them with the real tasks of merchants and crafters, rather than some silly minigame. :)
Right on. Alot of that stuff may even be done via out-of-game communications means, as well as in-game, but a large amount of that 'career' focus will resemble being a commodity or stock trader. Which if you're into that, is great. Even though the actual in-game mechanics may seem absurdly dry and boring to many other players, all of that is rife with MEANINGFUL INTERACTION for those interested in that mini-game/specialization. Another big factor of 'market combat' will be coordinating with transport, which in turn interfaces with caravan guards, which in turn interfaces with larger/slower-scale settlement combat. Perhaps their logged in character will spend alot of time standing around nearby crafting/processing/market buildings in settlements, but they will be 'engaged' in everything they want to be.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@Lord of Elder Days - you're not wrong, but that's not the game we're making, at least not at first. More creativity could come later with Crowdforging although there are a lot of implications if goods cease being commodities so that would be a heck of a big commitment on the part of the community to go down that path.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do not seem to be following appropriately here, but why does additional creativity in a crafting system cause goods to cease being commodities? The big difference I see is that when you provide enough for the craftsman to do as a craftsman, it frees them from the merchant work. And I imagine there will be plenty of people who are interested in being merchants and not so much in creating or harvesting items themselves. In this scenario, goods are still commodities. But just as the craftsman relies on either a harvester/refiner or merchant to bring them materials to use, the merchants then work with craftsmen to obtain the commodities to sell. By separating the roles, we are adding another level of meaningful interaction and relationships.
As a merchant, do you try to build a stable business by relying on a few craftsmen that will consistently deliver and building strong relationships with them that may require a bit more investment from your end? Or do you play the wheeler and dealer who bounces around trying to get the best deals from anyone who will give them? You're stock and wares change from day to day providing for a chaotic business, but you get things cheap and are able to turn a nice profit.
As a craftsman, do you choose to sell to anyone who will meet your price? Or do you want to establish those strong reliable business contracts? Does the reputation of the merchant mean anything to you when they approach, or is all coin the same regardless of which hand it comes from?
Or do you play the self-selling craftsman? You lose a bit of time in the shop in order to manage markets and transport of goods, but you keep most of the profit to yourself in exchange.
Ultimately, how much you make would remain relatively the same. Either you turn out higher volume by dedicating to your craft but make less money per item due to relying on middle men or you make more per item going direct to consumer but cannot produce the same volume because you are managing the sales aspect yourself. I think all of the play-styles would be viable and none would be so superior as to produce a Nobody Does X scenario.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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What is the market price for a sword?
If it is a commodity you pick a market, and you look at the price swords sell for and that's the market price. You are able to make a lot of decisions about inputs, costs, volume and price because "sword" is a commodity.
The more variables you add the more complex that equation becomes. "Swords +1" are different than "Swords +2", etc. But still, each of those sub-categories is a commodity and you can work out the equation satisfactorily.
If the item becomes "Swords +1 Blue Hilt Pink Tinted Blade .75% crafter bonus made by Dave Smith" the ability to perform price discovery becomes increasingly limited.
When looting do I take the "Swords +1 ... Made by Dave Smith" or the "Swords +1 ... Made by Betty Smith"?
For purposes of inventory management I can't make a stack of "Sword +1" because I could have dozens of different Swords +1. As an active trader I could have thousand of Swords in my inventory that need to be managed.
Now multiply this problem across every item that is craftable that isn't a commodity and yo use how the problems rapidly pile up for anyone engaged in the production, transport, buying and/or selling, looting or management of these kinds of items.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What is the market price for a sword?
If it is a commodity you pick a market, and you look at the price swords sell for and that's the market price. You are able to make a lot of decisions about inputs, costs, volume and price because "sword" is a commodity.
The more variables you add the more complex that equation becomes. "Swords +1" are different than "Swords +2", etc. But still, each of those sub-categories is a commodity and you can work out the equation satisfactorily.
If the item becomes "Swords +1 Blue Hilt Pink Tinted Blade .75% crafter bonus made by Dave Smith" the ability to perform price discovery becomes increasingly limited.
When looting do I take the "Swords +1 ... Made by Dave Smith" or the "Swords +1 ... Made by Betty Smith"?
For purposes of inventory management I can't make a stack of "Sword +1" because I could have dozens of different Swords +1. As an active trader I could have thousand of Swords in my inventory that need to be managed.
Now multiply this problem across every item that is craftable that isn't a commodity and yo use how the problems rapidly pile up for anyone engaged in the production, transport, buying and/or selling, looting or management of these kinds of items.
The very concept of stacking something such as a sword in inventory was foreign to me. I would have never considered it. However, perhaps we need to make inventory management more malleable than the traditional 'stack' exercise. If we manage inventory space by weight instead of 'bag slots' as I believe this game intends to do, then there is no reason we cannot create Arbitrary stacks in inventory. You can create a Swords +1 (average) stack and pile in your pink hilted and blue hilted items together because they cost about the same. Then you manage the stack en-masse in the same fashion as if they were all the same item when you get to market. If you need to separate them later, you can "open the stack" as if it were another "bag". Then if any items are particularly rare such a Sword +1 with Glowing Black Blade pops up, you just drop that in a 'Rares' stack that you can manage independently when you get to market.
As a craftsman, I would love the ability to add such customization to items. As a non-merchant player, I would love the ability to buy customized equipment.
The wins for the larger player base definitely seem to outweigh the problems presented here. But then again, I do not plan to play a merchant any time soon, so my opinion may be biased here.
TLDR: Inventory management can be resolved through innovating in the space of inventory management. Market logistics can be solved by being able to group/stack your inventory by market value for your destination. The only pain point is determining the value of different items, which is already something that merchants need to do, so I don't see the problem.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Now multiply this problem across every item that is craftable that isn't a commodity and yo use how the problems rapidly pile up for anyone engaged in the production, transport, buying and/or selling, looting or management of these kinds of items.
Doesn't this problem already largely exist with all of the different keywords possible? Doesn't a great deal of individual customization also already exist for the same reason?
Do I have the idea of items crafted with different keywords, totally wrong?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Right. There is quite a bit of room for singularity in choosing a weapon, armor, or whatever there (if I understand keywords right). Perhaps as crafting develops, there will be some room for specialization in keywords that gives individual crafters some of what they want. It could be with separate skills for separate "words" or categories of them, or it could be as simple as the different materials (in the crafting) making it easier to focus on a few types per crafter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes. There are already lots of things in the category "swords". There are probably about six things in the group "Falchions".
If you start adding hilt styles to falchions, then you further multiple the number of distinct items of that overall type.
But in most cases, these customizations are cosmetic. Cosmetic has a lesser impact on price for most items except the most desirable/most rare. Your green vs. blue vs. purple hilt should be close enough to be treated equitably on the market. Your golden hilt or sparkly hilt will be rare and thus command higher prices, but the very rarity which adds value means that it will be a limited occurrence to some degree. If out of 100 uniquely cosmetic, but otherwise mechanically identical, falchions we have 10 of them justify special pricing, I do not see that as system breaking.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Every variable on a commodity is an exponential growth in the number of distinct subcategories within that commodity.
Our keyword system already implies many such exponents, but at least each of those has some quantifiable value. The value of "Pink Blade" is aesthetic and can't be quantified so it will produce a wide variety of values and those values will shift over time as fashion changes. The value of the [Vorpal] keyword will only shift if we make changes to the game mechanic, and those changes would be global and we will (hopefully) give lots of runway before such changes are made so that everyone is aware they're coming. Fashion changes in the blink of an eye.
I do think that this statement:
The very concept of stacking something such as a sword in inventory was foreign to me.
Is at the heart of this disconnect.
The tabletop game economy (such as it is) doesn't deal in commodities. It abstracts the economy of the world to a high degree and leaves you with "weapon shop" - a place with a limited selection of options to buy.
This is reinforced by the literary tradition that the tabletop game is a part of, where "items of power" are rare devices not commodities.
So people tend to allow themselves to be deceived by these narrative tropes into ignoring the fact that they make no sense. Why would you ever put yourself at risk of death or great bodily injury going into "dungeons" in search of treasure if you could make limited-edition highly rare and valuable magic swords that the local kings would therefore pay exorbitant prices to acquire? That's what happened at the age of gunpowder weapons in Europe, for example. The early gunsmiths became fabulously wealthy because they were creating bespoke objects d'art as well as functional weapons for their wealthy patrons.
The barely-there economy of many fantasy stories and of the tabletop game works because there are only a handful of characters with agency. If only a dozen characters need to worry about magic swords then it's ok if they're rare and mysterious and limited.
The world of Pathfinder Online has a rational economy because there's so many characters in it. Making magic swords is just like making bread. You assemble the ingredients, run a job, and produce the swords. This has to happen because the number of swords needed will be in the millions - swords will break, be lost, be recycled, etc. by tens of thousands and then hundreds of thousands of characters. You're not making Excalibur, you're making M16s. There are many like them, but one is yours.
The more unique we make the category "swords", the more overhead we force on the vast majority of the player population that doesn't care about those unique aspects. We force them to confront it every time they go to buy or sell things on the market. We force them to confront it when they're dealing with their inventory. All that complexity adds to the mental load that players have to carry to be good at the game. Most players would rather offload that overhead in exchange for more attention spent on aspects of the game with a broader application.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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I should add that there is a way to both have unique items and commodities at the same time.
Instead of crafting unique items, you craft commodity items. And then you craft "decoration kits" that are purchased separately and applied by the user. Once applied, the user has a unique item. But that customization is lost when the item leaves the inventory of the person who applied the kit. So you loot a commodity sword and you buy and sell a commodity sword but you fight with a sword with a pink blade.
This is unsatisfying to crafters who want to be the ones who turn a commodity into a unique item, but it has a much wider application to many more players because it puts the agency of fashion in their control but doesn't force them to bother to pay attention to it anywhere other than their own inventory.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As someone who will be crafting, whether its a spreadsheet or an artistic process, I would be very excited for crafting to eventually* feature a wide range of customizations.
I expect that the theorycrafters will fairly quickly rank the mechanical properties of the objects so produced and if the esthetics are limited by some factor** then let the market decide / develop.
*in the future, well past MVP, and early, and open, and ( ;
**I would hope that the inputs and or skills to produce some of the visual only effects are limited enough to restrict the production of purple and pink swords on speculation. Such things should likely remain bespoke items.
I would also hope that by this point that multiple crafters could come together to provide their tweaks to an end product.
EDIT: Good grief I type slow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The more unique we make the category "swords", the more overhead we force on the vast majority of the player population that doesn't care about those unique aspects. We force them to confront it every time they go to buy or sell things on the market. We force them to confront it when they're dealing with their inventory. All that complexity adds to the mental load that players have to carry to be good at the game. Most players would rather offload that overhead in exchange for more attention spent on aspects of the game with a broader application.
I feel that it is the majority of the players that *do* care about unique aspects of their weapon/armor, but maybe I am simply too conditioned by PvE Themeparks in the past.
I also think you are underestimating the energy people will put into getting that unique weapon (and then threading it off course). I have never felt the item and inventory management, nor the search for the ultimate weapon to be a mental load. :)
I understand many cool things will be happening in PFO on a much larger scale: that is what exites me the most. That does not mean people will not still love to fiddle with their stuff and go at great lengths to obtain what they think is the coolest. I also think that players that prefer to play Merchants and Crafters can take *any* mental load when it comes to minutely handling humongous amounts of items, numbers and whatnot. They *live* for that stuff. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ryan, Thanks for that explanation. I was with Lifedragn in that I would not have seen swords as stackable. I think the difference for me is in the word Crafter as opposed to Manufacturer. I guess I just like the idea of the Crafter taking pride in their efforts and also being an artist in some sense.
Of course, with your explanation, there is a happy middle ground...make these customization kits craftable (perhaps each requiring a small amount of sky metal)...in addition to the current plan that commodities (such as +1 swords) should be manufacturable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I should add that there is a way to both have unique items and commodities at the same time.Instead of crafting unique items, you craft commodity items. And then you craft "decoration kits" that are purchased separately and applied by the user. Once applied, the user has a unique item. But that customization is lost when the item leaves the inventory of the person who applied the kit. So you loot a commodity sword and you buy and sell a commodity sword but you fight with a sword with a pink blade.
This is unsatisfying to crafters who want to be the ones who turn a commodity into a unique item, but it has a much wider application to many more players because it puts the agency of fashion in their control but doesn't force them to bother to pay attention to it anywhere other than their own inventory.
What if you shift the application around a little and one can take their commodity sword to a smith to be customized?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Btw, I am not saying that items should be so customizable that you could have blue hilts with pink blades and 15 different pommels.
When I read this quote from the Murder by Numbers blog:
Armor and Weapon Keywords
To a starting character, maximum-quality, top-Tier weapon and armor performs almost exactly the same as his starting gear. This is because the major difference between items comes in the form of keywords, not directly increased numbers. A starter longsword is a 40 Base Damage weapon with the "Slashing" keyword. A fairly potent mid-level longsword still does 40 Base Damage, but has the keywords "Slashing," "Sharp," "Razored," "Silver," and "Masterwork." A starter set of heavy armor has 27 Physical damage resistance and the "Heavy" Keyword. A mid-level set still has the same resistance, but has the "Heavy," "Dense," "Distributed," "Military," and "Masterwork" keywords.*
then there will be quit some variation already(that is 5 keywords already).
Also this quote:
9.Some creatures may have an additional, final damage multiplier that applies unless the attacking weapon has a specific keyword (Silver for lycanthropes, Adamantine for golems, Bludgeoning for skeletons, etc.), reducing the final damage. This is the one time a better weapon is useful to players without sufficient attacks to use all the keywords: a Silver sword is still useful to a new player fighting werewolves. Players very rarely benefit from such vulnerability-based defenses.
which gives some more examples of how weapons could be different, and desirable. I guess the keyword approach already gives a huge variation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're not making Excalibur, you're making M16s. There are many like them, but one is yours.
Before God I swear this creed: my sword and myself are defenders of my Settlement, we are the masters of our enemy, we are the saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While I can understand the functionality of the mass production replaceable part economy it does seem out of place in a preindustrial setting. Also if a combat oriented character can do something awesome like slay a dragon why can't a craft focused character do something awesome like craft "Excalibur"?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Post-purchase customization could be an end-run around the problem you specify (which I still claim is a value add, not a detractor). And I suppose it would be sufficient for me as a player. Though it does give us a fairly mundane and lackluster crafting system. And I find it highly inferior to actually building out a good in-game persistent customization process over time (definitely not an MVP type of thing).
It seems fairly simple to add 1-3 properties per item that could be a texture or color (which may just be a texture as well) and allow those choices to persist as the item is moved around, much the same way as you could dye a tunic in UO and then give it to someone else and the colors would stay. Perhaps the market system could clear everything out to default textures (based on construction material or the like), but I think even adding the mental load for shoppers to make a choice isn't breaking. Heck, maybe add a toggle for 'Standard' and 'Custom'. But I'd be pretty sure if we did that you are going to see 'Custom' preferred over 'Standard' for most of the purchases that are being done by individuals for themselves. It diverges from a super-simplified market view, but the benefit outweighs that cost.
Post-purchase customization kits could even still be an option here. Don't like any of the custom jobs on the market? Buy standard or a cheap custom, and then go to the Goblinworks Store and buy your post-purchase customization consumable kit!
Then if you want a really special order, you will either have to circumvent the market and find a capable craftsman to commission (meaningful human interaction) to customize it just how you want it or you can circumvent that process for a micro-transaction. You get three distinct wins here...
1) Cash shop option(s)
2) Craftsman feel more like artisans and less like assembly lines
3) The cash shop doesn't feel intrusive because you can still achieve the same goals through in-game play. That increases the game's reputation and makes it feel less like a cash grab.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another thing to remember is that 'The Acquisition of Cool Stuff' is a driving force not only in the Tabletop game, but also any number of other MMOs. By advocating against the existence of 'Cool Stuff' for the sake of market simplicity, it feels like eliminating one of the reasons to play the game in the first place.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Before God I swear this creed: my sword and myself are defenders of my Settlement, we are the masters of our enemy, we are the saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen.
Always be careful never to forget that last comma :-).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Instead of crafting unique items, you craft commodity items. And then you craft "decoration kits" that are purchased separately and applied by the user. Once applied, the user has a unique item. But that customization is lost when the item leaves the inventory of the person who applied the kit. So you loot a commodity sword and you buy and sell a commodity sword but you fight with a sword with a pink blade.
Does the kit remain with the user after the weapon is lost to be usable on another weapon, or is the kit a consumable that must be bought again to customize the next weapon?
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Goblin Squad Member
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...'The Acquisition of Cool Stuff' is a driving force not only in the Tabletop game...
Unless one's spent one's gaming career with GMs who loathe coming up with Cool Stuff, in which case one's never picked up that bit of drive. Result: I've many memories around Cool Events, but few around Cool Stuff.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...'The Acquisition of Cool Stuff' is a driving force not only in the Tabletop game...Unless one's spent one's gaming career with GMs who loathe coming up with Cool Stuff, in which case one's never picked up that bit of drive. Result: I've many memories around Cool Events, but few around Cool Stuff.
My tabletop player career has largely oriented around cool events as well. My tabletop GM career is what has brought my insight about players wanting cool stuff. They may talk about the cool events for long periods to come, but in the heat of the moment they are all about the loot.
My MMO career has typically been around cool stuff. Cool events are awesome, but the number of times an MMO can replicate a 'cool event' for me is limited, as unless brand new systems are brought in then future cool events all start looking the same. The cool stuff however, is a memory made virtually physical. And is a very distinct way for me to stand out from the other limited models. I spent a lot of time with dye tubs in UO, and a lot of time collecting armors of appropiate styles and colors in WoW. It just feels odd to me to build a sandbox game but then gloss over customization abilities.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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While I can understand the functionality of the mass production replaceable part economy it does seem out of place in a preindustrial setting.
The Xth Legion under Julius Caesar had six thousand men. Every one had sword, spear, shield, and replacements for same, plus various bits of soldiering kit. All of that was crafted to specifications that were identical across the whole of the Empire.
"pre industrial" doesn't imply a lack of large quantities of manufactured goods.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also if a combat oriented character can do something awesome like slay a dragon why can't a craft focused character do something awesome like craft "Excalibur"?
In our case, the crafting of Excalibur will likely resemble the crafting of a BF-in' ship from EVE (believe they're called Titans, but I could be wrong); it'll be the result of millions of gold and thousands of-man hours, and the effort of an entire crafting company or maybe even more. I'd say, in this game which is so focused on team efforts and coordination, don't get your hopes up about being able to make a huge impact with one character, whether that's a huge impact in PvP, the marketplace, or crafting. In every case you have to rely on others to truly succeed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also if a combat oriented character can do something awesome like slay a dragon why can't a craft focused character do something awesome like craft "Excalibur"?In our case, the crafting of Excalibur will likely resemble the crafting of a BF-in' ship from EVE (believe they're called Titans, but I could be wrong); it'll be the result of millions of gold and thousands of-man hours, and the effort of an entire crafting company or maybe even more. I'd say, in this game which is so focused on team efforts and coordination, don't get your hopes up about being able to make a huge impact with one character, whether that's a huge impact in PvP, the marketplace, or crafting. In every case you have to rely on others to truly succeed.
Imagine the treads needed to keep it and the costs to repair it. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't want to get off on a tangent but just how standardized the equipment of a Roman legionnaire was is open to a lot of speculation. Within the same cohort it is likely that several types of armor were in use such as lorica segmentata chain mail and scale mail. It is also likely that bronze armor was still in use during the late republic. Things like camp gear cooking and grooming utensils had almost no standardization. Also while a legionnaire would posse a sword made in a large batch by a journeyman smith a tribune or even a centurion would likely have their weapon custom made by a well known master smith. My point being even with large amounts of manufactured goods there was no standardization.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Of course this sword would be only be like 1/4 of a Titan or so, because to have 1 player at "Titan strength" would require making that glorious sword, as well as a glorious set of armor, shield, and set of glorious magical items to get him up to the true maximum of power. Don't know enough about EVE to make a comparison there (no doubt in EVE you have add-ons for the ship to give it additional combat capabilities?).
@Lord of Elder Days, one silver lining here is that, I have no doubt that a settlement will need one at least one guy at the peak of swordcrafting training before they can begin crafting Excalibur, so you will likely be able to lead the Excalibur-crafting project and maybe even put your name on it. :)
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Goblinworks Lead Game Designer
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With the system as it is written up currently, crafters will have some limited ability to customize products by choosing from a number of pre-created options. For example, when making a longsword if I put higher quality resources into the process I could make it Durable or Serrated, both of which are have keywords that have specific effects. They're standardized and you could look in the auction house for Longsword +3 (Durable) or some such, but there is some choice involved.
We are going to have to track some individual aspects of weapons, such as lost durability due to threaded recovery on resurrection. How those damaged weapons interact with the economy from there is not settled, but the leading idea is disallowing them from being sold on the auction house until they are repaired. So if you are buying in the auction house, you never buy damaged goods.
I'd like to include some color customization, dye creation, etc, into the crafting system but where it falls is yet to be determined. We were talking today about changing outfit colors to those of your settlement during war time so everyone can see what team people are on (don't like it, go stealth), so we've got a number of ideas afloat on the customization side of things. Also I'd like to track who makes items if we can manage it from the database side of thing, but that remains to be seen. I don't think it's something that has to displayed in the name of the item or some such, only on item inspection, but it is something that requires time/effort that can probably be spent more efficiently somewhere else in the short term.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Imagine the treads needed to keep it and the costs to repair it. ;)Also if a combat oriented character can do something awesome like slay a dragon why can't a craft focused character do something awesome like craft "Excalibur"?In our case, the crafting of Excalibur will likely resemble the crafting of a BF-in' ship from EVE (believe they're called Titans, but I could be wrong); it'll be the result of millions of gold and thousands of-man hours, and the effort of an entire crafting company or maybe even more. I'd say, in this game which is so focused on team efforts and coordination, don't get your hopes up about being able to make a huge impact with one character, whether that's a huge impact in PvP, the marketplace, or crafting. In every case you have to rely on others to truly succeed.
If there's a way to keep it from being lost, it needs to be less powerful that it can be if there's a drastic risk whenever you take it out of the armory.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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I think the equivalent of Titans in Pathfinder Online will be buildings in Settlements. On a distant hazy horizon far beyond the start of Open Enrollment I could glimpse things like war golems or chained outsiders or other weapons of mass destruction for use in Settlement warfare but my crystal ball is not very good at those kinds of distant observations.