It depends on the level as well as number and type of enemies. Barbarians fair extremely well in most situations I would say however. The fighter has access to their damage increasing abilities basically all the time however these abilities are less impressive generally than say rage, smite, or favored enemy. And then we get in to synthesist, magus, and certain alchemist builds that can pull off pretty impressive numbers given prep, or by spamming abilities, or just having an awesome class feature.
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I would agree that barbarians are contenders for the highest DPR in the game. I think it's all situational. There are certainly times when the raging melee combatant will top the list. There are also times when the caster, the archer, or the more mobile combatant will shine. As someone already pointed out, using a maximized Chain Lightning spell can dish out 420d6 among 21 targets (1 primary and up to 20 secondary for a level 20 caster, I'll skip the empowered feat), or 120 damage each for a total of 2520 damage before saves and any bonuses to damage. That's great -- if you have 21 targets without lightning resistance and poor reflex saves. If you have an enemy who stands in melee to full attack and allows an opponent to do the same, then yes, the barbarian may well do the most damage.
However, I've found that the barbarian needs more healing than other melee classes due to the heavy AC penalties incurred (that Come and Get Me rage power is a nightmare for the healer). That just goes with the territory, I suppose.
Still, I like the flavor of each of the classes, barbarians included. It's probably better to have a character concept first, then optimize within that concept, rather than looking for the highest DPR and going from there. Within any campaign there should be times when each of the strengths and weaknesses of the different classes come into play. If the party is continually running into single monster melee encounters, I'd say something is wrong.
Highest single target damage IMO is actually a well built Horizon Walker. Might need Instant Enemy wand to actually get his attack and damage bonus, but it can get very high if he has some rogue levels in order to spam feats on Extra Talent.
At high levels use wand of terrain bond to get massive damage and max out one favored terrain and then add it to favored enemy damage.
At high levels use wand of terrain bond to get massive damage and max out one favored terrain and then add it to favored enemy damage.
Wand of Terrain Bond would "only" buff initiative, stealth, etc... It's also hella expensive.
The damage bonus HW gets is reliant on his foe being from one of his 1-3 dominant terrains. Treating your current surroundings as one of those terrains does nothing to help you gain the attack/damage bonus. Foe needs to count as being native to the locales you've selected. Which is where Instant Enemy comes in, to treat any enemy you may come across as if he's actually X. X being your highest favored enemy, who is always native to Y area, which you happen to have as a dominant terrain. :)
There isn't ANYTHING better than a Barbarian for high sustained damage?
A magus with the right arcanas will hit you with a quickened, empowered, maximised disintegrate for 240+20d6+ weapon damage then spellstrike a regular disintegrate for 40d6+weapon damage then get three more attacks.
You're looking at 450+ (5 x weapon damage) on a single target.
Of course, if you crit but once on the disintegrate (which happens on a 15-20), then the numbers fly even higher.
There isn't ANYTHING better than a Barbarian for high sustained damage?A magus with the right arcanas will hit you with a quickened, empowered, maximised disintegrate for 240+20d6+ weapon damage then spellstrike a regular disintegrate for 40d6+weapon damage then get three more attacks.
You're looking at 450+ (5 x weapon damage) on a single target.
Of course, if you crit but once on the disintegrate (which happens on a 15-20), then the numbers fly even higher.
This is a "one shot wonder" - you get the 'wave motion gun' drop in one shot. You still have to (a) actually HIT, (b) beat SR, and (c) the foe has to fail its Fortitude save. This last is the biggest deal of the bunch - at high level play this is generally far and away the best save that the enemy has.
This doesn't count stuff like spell turning. Does your Magus feel lucky? Can the character reasonably expect to succeed against his own disintegrate? If not, the inevitable will occur at some point.
Ah, but I agree with you. I was merely answering the OP. Going with such a move would ne pretty stupid and, as you say, rely on luck ;)
Although some full caster builds can lay down impressive DPR with area effect spells under the right circumstances, it seems a waste of effort in trying to out-damage martial characters. A caster has better options than trying to whittle away at an enemy's hit points. The right combination of spells can oftentimes defeat enemies or, better yet, turn them into unwitting allies.
This kind of discussion is fine, but is better conducted with casters left out of it IMO.
again guys, OP said levels 1-5, consistent damage. None of that is remotely applicable here.
again guys, OP said levels 1-5, consistent damage. None of that is remotely applicable here.
I have a fantastic Greasword Fighter (Weaponmaster) build. With only a +2 weapon, at 5th level his attack bonus is +11, and he deals 2d6+15 damage to every foe within 5' as a full attack action. At 6th level that becomes +12 attack and 2d6+15 damage to every foe within 10'.
Feats:
Human - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Combat Expertise
4th - Spring Attack [Retrain Cleave to Whirlwind Attack]
5th - Weapon Focus: Greatsword
6th - Lunge
Being able to attack everything within reach at full BAB when others still haven't gotten their second iterative attack can be huge at low levels.
Conversely, my Zen Archer at 5th level with a +2 Bow would make attacks of +9/+9 for 1d8+9 damage, and up to 7 Ki points could be spent to add a third attack at +9 as well in any given round. At 6th level those attacks become +10/+10/+5 for 1d8+11 each and the Ki option for a fourth attack at +10.
So at 5th level the Weaponmaster could consistently deal 2d6+15 damage to multiple foes in a round while the Zen Archer could deal 3d8+27 damage to a single target. Both improve their damage potential notably at 6th level depending on the circumstance.
So I take it a TWF rogue wouldn't make this list at all?
My dad can deal more damage to your dad and my spear is longer than your spear.
Seriously, I like these threads because they give me good ideas for challenging NPCs.
So I take it a TWF rogue wouldn't make this list at all?
There are two main things that limit their ability to consistently deal solid damage: flanking situations (to generate all those sneak attacks) and BAB limitations (limiting their ability to hit, especially with iterative attacks). When they can line up full attacks while flanking they can do good damage, but that's not the norm for most combats. The full BAB classes don't have the constraints.
Edit: Doh! Ninja'd by ShadowcatX
Not only does rogue do at best the same damage as other things mentioned here in ideal, full attack sneak attack conditions (which will seldom happen). Not only is their attack bonus anemic. They're also squishy as hell and will die very quickly if they actually try to stand in melee and full attack for any length of time.
Not that their skill related abilities are any good either. Most are just stupid 1/day/5 levels reroll crap, and the bard surpasses rogue in effective amount of skill points ~level 6 thanks to versatile performance, on top of having decent party buff abilities and full CL spellcasting.
Rogues are rather secondary damage dealers. Sneak attack does get interesting when you can ensure that you'll have it in most situations (e.g. stealth, invisibility, feinting, ...) and when you can inflict conditions like through crippling strike.
orc natural weapon ranger with the trait for the bite attack and aspect of the beast at level 2 puts out a ton of damage but relies on orcs of golarion. This does rely on full attack though.
My dad can deal more damage to your dad and my spear is longer than your spear.
Seriously, I like these threads because they give me good ideas for challenging NPCs.
My first level character can do more damage than AM BARBARIAN and his quintuplet siblings who are all exactly like AM BARBARIAN and they all rolled natural 20s on all attacks (and confirms) and maxed their damage.
He's a first level GM with GM Fiat.
My dad can deal more damage to your dad and my spear is longer than your spear.
Seriously, I like these threads because they give me good ideas for challenging NPCs.
My first level character can do more damage than AM BARBARIAN and his quintuplet siblings who are all exactly like AM BARBARIAN and they all rolled natural 20s on all attacks (and confirms) and maxed their damage.
He's a first level GM with GM Fiat.
since Sean clarified that you can't gain the benefits of spirited charge on iterative attacks even if you have an unusual combination of abilities that allow you to charge as if you were on a charging mount and had the ability to pounce and that you can't pounce from the back of a charging mount(although SKR hadn't made an official clarification to me it's fairly obvious), AM barbarian is rather average.
EDIT: that sentence didn't run on, it charged... and pounced.
So I take it a TWF rogue wouldn't make this list at all?
People have a hate-on for rogues. To be honest I like them a lot. Ours has the feats to maximize his flanking, and the enchantments to help others. Sure, it sucks when he runs up and "only" lays one knife on the badguy, but if the badguy is still alive on round two the rogue is basically a guarantee he won't live for round 3. We're level 9 now and he's able to be the big attacker given proper support.
I think 5 is a little soon for the rogue to be dealing great damage, ours seemed to hit his stride once he had ITWF and was hasted every round.
Of course, all of this hinges on support. With bard song, teamwork, flanking and buffs he's pretty awesome. Especially if he gets grabbed and dimension doored up to his target on round 1. To see a rogue without any thought played vs one played with everything thought out, I think that's the greatest performance gap among the melee.
TL:DR Rogues scale the best with support (IMO).
It is not hate. It is frustration,but there are already threads on that issue.
In short it has been summed up, that nobody does the most damage all the time.
No, the rules have a hate-on for rogues, not the posters (most of them, at least). In 3E, they were my favorite class. They still are thematically in PF, the mechanics just don't work. So I take a Vivvisectionist Alchemist or Archaeologist Bard, close my eyes, and pretend.
I thought the Devs had said anytime your mount is charging, you are charging, and so you can get your pounce attack off. When did SKR clarify that charging mounts don't allow you to make a pounce attack?
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Well if this isn't a troll topic, I've never seen one.
Trolls do make great barbarians.
I thought the Devs had said anytime your mount is charging, you are charging, and so you can get your pounce attack off. When did SKR clarify that charging mounts don't allow you to make a pounce attack?
You gain the numerical benefits of the charge, and any mounted charging feats are activated. It was in one of those blog post with the crazy names. It is also clarified in the FAQ.
I thought the Devs had said anytime your mount is charging, you are charging, and so you can get your pounce attack off. When did SKR clarify that charging mounts don't allow you to make a pounce attack?
I pointed out that the last part wasn't clarified. Sean repeatedly said "on a charging mount" during the spirited charge-pounce thread and stated as if you had the ability to spirited charge on foot and pounce. That's not a topic for this thread though.
You get pounce you get the multiplied damage the first hit and then all the other attacks are at regular damage from what I understand.
You get pounce you get the multiplied damage the first hit and then all the other attacks are at regular damage from what I understand.
yes. Any time you receive extra damage from a charge attack it only applies to the initial attack.
That's still something like 3d8+150 on the first hit and then 1d8+70 on the following hits.
That's still something like 3d8+150 on the first hit and then 1d8+70 on the following hits.
but pouncing on horseback is "bending" the rules. If the DM allows that, he jumped the shark.
Pouncing on horseback is clearly allowable. Getting charge damage on all attacks with a Lance while pouncing is emphatically not.
==Aelryinth
Pouncing on horseback is clearly allowable. Getting charge damage on all attacks with a Lance while pouncing is emphatically not.
==Aelryinth
it clearly isn't, but we can agree to disagree.