There isn't ANYTHING better than a Barbarian for high sustained damage?
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actually, full casters are the undisputed damage masters
If you mean single target, maybe. Multitarget, no. An empowered maximized chain lightning can do up to 200d6+2400, divided among 20 targets and subject to Saving throws. Add up to 800 more for sorcerers
Against single target blasting is not that effective. If you exploit vulneravility (ie polar ray vs red dragon, damage only scales up to 280+20d6 for a crossblooded sorcerer with a maximized polar ray and quickened.polar ray.
Wall.of lava can increase that a bit, depending on builds.
Kinda interested in what spells a full caster casts at 20th that matches a lance barbarian, twf rogue (or ninja), or full fighter archer. None of the blasts come close, and I don't count save or die spells. Adding d6s to damage isn't even close to what a min/maxed full leveled barbarian is capable of. Heck 40d6 is only 140 damage on average. Maxed 240, still not in the ballpark.
EDIT: ninja'ed with the answer to my question.
You need to also consider the level you're talking. If you're playing a paizo AP that only goes from levels 1-13 (which is common) then a CAGM build is going to put up less damage over the campaign than an archer.
A well shaped fire storm spell could do as much as 400d6 + 200 damage from an evoker, assuming 20 targets
A well shaped fire storm spell could do as much as 400d6 + 200 damage from an evoker, assuming 20 targets
While that is quite a bit of damage, its not much per target. On average like 80. 20d6 per target is underwhelming, 70 damage, same as swimming in lava.
Barbarians can spike for 4 digits on a single target if they really want to.
At level 20 crowd control spells that only do 80 damage per target is not nearly as important as one shotting critical enemies.
Even for straight-combat damage, Synthasist tends to outdo Barbarian after around 8. Especially if given any prep time, but usually no matter what.
Vivisector Alchemists are the top in PFS, or anywhere they allow 20th level potions to be made.
Would you say the Vivisector is better than the Barbarian at levels 1-5?
actually, full casters are the undisputed damage masters
Meh.... Undisputed MVP during combat... sure. Best DPS. Not so much. Not unless your having one or maybe two combats a day.
As for best. Its really situational. Barbarians, Fighters, rogues in certain groups who help set him up for SA... There are like 3 or 4 Archer classes/builds with high sustained dps. It really shouuld depend more on what type of character you want to play. Based on that you can find the high damage dealer.
Well if this isn't a troll topic, I've never seen one.
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No; but no worse either. Ultimately those levels don't matter so much; if you have an 18 strength and wield a weapon 2-handed, you're good enough. Both Barbs and vivis have +4, so will typically be a 22, with Vivis being marginally better in dungeons (for 10 mins/lvl they don't run out of +4 Str) and barbs better on the road (they can divide their rounds as they please, even if they are more limited). So that is 1-3; barbs have +1 BAB but little other difference.
4 is where the potions come into play, and where Vivis pick up their "last 40 hours" (extend potion discovery should be a given). potion of Greater Magic Fang 20 level to spit up twice (bite and claws), and that's what ultimately widens out the gap. So from there on, they are higher likely to hit and damage.
And that is not taking into account the potential for sneak attack damage adding a little extra.
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actually, full casters are the undisputed damage masters
That's unbelievably wrong.
Well, yes, if you put forty enemies in fireball formation so that the caster can firestorm them, they can put out pretty numbers; however, for highest damage, always look to the full BAB classes.
First is paladin archer, second is likely a pouncing barbarian (who unfortunately can no longer achieve double damage with multiple lance hits).
On more similar grounds...beyond the low levels, FIGHTERS surpass barbarians for damage dealing in PF. Weapon Specialization + Greater Weapon Specialization + Weapon Training + gloves of dueling (not needed, but just drives the divide further) = greater damage boost than (greater/mighty) rage. Yes, I'm assuming 2H weapons for each class, so barb's str bonus is doing 1.5x damage and going further. They still lose. The attack bonus discrepancy is even wider.
The only thing that puts barbarians over the fighter for damage per round, the ONLY thing, is Come and Get Me rage power. Which allows the barbarian to significantly surpass the fighter in attacks per round, and thus outdamage him despite having lower numbers on each swing.
Using CAGM only exacerbates the barbarian's massive defensive weaknesses compared to fighter, of course, and will lead to him potentially dying very very fast despite the d12s.
Pounce greater beast totem is also notable, bu there are options a Fighter has to quasi pounce, the Mobile Fighter archetype, for instance. In any case, a 2H weapon user doesn't have that many attacks to pounce with anyway. Barb can generate many more attacks, and at higher BAB, by utilizing CAGM. Main purpose of his attack actions is to present a deadly enough threat to force enemies to try and kill him despite CAGM.
I did it from my head without a calculator so it might be slightly off.
Empowered. Maximized chain lightning does 120+10d6 to the first target. It rebounds 20 times. That's 2400+200d6. A crossblooded draconic/primal can add +2 per dice. Tjats 40, *20 rebounds, 800. Divide among targets, and depending on saving throws as Isaid. So it seems accurate
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Empowered. Maximized chain lightning does 120+10d6 to the first target. It rebounds 20 times. That's 2400+200d6. A crossblooded draconic/primal can add +2 per dice. Tjats 40, *20 rebounds, 800. Divide among targets, and depending on saving throws as Isaid. So it seems accurate
Maximized gives you max damage on your die rolls, that is 120 for 20d6.
Empowered increases all variable damage by 50%, that comes to 180.Even with the bloodline, that only comes to 220.
Stop multiplying by the number of targets, as it is unrealistic and skews the numbers. If you want to multiply by the number of targets, give the BSF lunge, great cleave, and a reach weapon and you see how quickly it can be out-paced.
The Magus has the DPR Crown as far as single target damage goes.
But I would like to see some actual builds from the people that say that Barbarians get into the 1000´s DPR wise as I think thats highly unlikely whitout heavy rules bending.
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I was wondering about the "Thousands" myself; but honestly tend to "blank out" any talks above level 12. High level is just a silly game.
Fighters outdo barbarians; and paladins tend to if they are oath of Vengence and have their 6-7 smites / day (well, vs evil). Similar with rangers.
Any archer usually outdamages hand-to-hand after level 6; mostly owing to getting full attack every round.
Synths tend to be insane; as they get pounce and Str in the 28 range level 8. Even low levels they keep up; though their to-hit tends to suck till 4, and until 8 is buff-dependent.
As stated, the vivi alchemist will usually have greater magic fang up for 40 hours / day AND heroism up 4 hours/chug. This is enough to make them the highest DPR, and it widens if they can pull off sneak attack damage.
So barbarians role is "good enough" damage output, especially at low levels; and the highest hp undisputed in the game. Also, they are one of the few melees that can gain pounce at any point, and they have probably the best fear-effect control after level 8 if built for it.
Actually Synthesist has the highest undisputed hp in the game. d8 + d10 + two con bonuses to the pool = WAAAAAY better than a d12. Granted, the d10's and on of those con bonus amounts is only being added ~every 3 out of 4 levels. But still.
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I would agree with the proposition that a well built Barbarian is the single highest DPS class in the game until 5th level is reached. (Possible exception is a twinked out Musket Master at level 4-5)
While a Paladin archer might manage better when smite evil can be used -- it often CAN'T be used. Whereas, no matter if the target is good, neutral or evil, will ruin that target's day, every time. When enlarged and cleaving, it's usually multiple targets, too.
After 4th or 5th level, the Barbarian's comparative advantage starts to shine not quite so brightly.
The whining about the Barbarian class (my co-host of the podcast complains about the Barbarian class a lot) is premised upon their relative lethality at low level, especially in PFS play. They are also easy peasy to build effectively, too.
There is no doubt that at level 1-4, (and probably 1-5, too) an optimized high strength Barbarian with a potion of enlarge person and a great axe can lay waste to a large number of foes in combat with a higher DPS than any other class in most circumstances against level appropriate foes.
Indeed, a well built barbarian PC with 3 or 4 potions of enlarge person can almost single-handed clear most Level 1-5 PFS scenarios as the sole combatant if he has one ally with a wand of cure light wounds to keep him up. (Mind you, a failed Will save at the wrong time and the game is over.)
Beyond that level range of level 1-5? No. There is all sorts of decent competition for the Barb's DPS; however, the Barbarian remains competitive throughout most of the game to level 12 or so as a prime-time combatant.
@Neberwrlfer: that's why I said depends on single target or multitarget. Afaik, empowered maximized is 100% max +50% of die, not 150% max. To your "only 220" you have to add maximized quickened chainlightning for another 160, that's "only" 380 damage, multiplied by the number of targets.
And that's using chainlightning. A Wall of Lava can do quite more, actually.
I think even before level 6, Barb is easily outdamaged by other classes, Steel Wind.
Archer or gunslinger with rapid shot probably does slightly more average damage just by having more attacks. Viv. Alchemist that can get sneak attack w/ claws and bite does more, especially once (if allowed) he can buy that CL 20 GMF potion and get 3 2nd level extract slots per day ~level 5. Magus can also easily outdamage Barb at early levels w/ shocking grasp spellstrikes. Synthesist has pounce, 3 natural weapons, and various other buffs plus enlarge person on his spell list.
I like Barb, but in PF they are so very not the uber damage class. CAGM, Invulnerable Rager, and rage hopping to use once/rage powers every round is all that keeps them relevant, mechanically.
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@Neberwrlfer: that's why I said depends on single target or multitarget. Afaik, empowered maximized is 100% max +50% of die, not 150% max. To your "only 220" you have to add maximized quickened chainlightning for another 160, that's "only" 380 damage, multiplied by the number of targets.
And that's using chainlightning. A Wall of Lava can do quite more, actually.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt with the dice. Assuming an average roll, you're doing 195 per target with the single spell. Throwing in another quickened will get you a total of 355 to a single target.
That number is significantly less than the 200d6+2400 number you threw out at the beginning. That is what I was disputing.
A lvl 20 wall of lava specialist (perfect spell, magic lineage) could "go nova" for a maximized empowered wall of lava + move action shot + maximized quickened wall of lava + 3 burning in the next round, for a whoop total of 700 damage to a single target. Plus nearly that much to whatever target of oportunity you can get nearby.
I don't know about vivisectionists and synthesists so I'm not considering them.
I also won't consider paladins as they don't get to choose when they rocks and when they don't (against evil I'll just say that a paladin archer is probably unmatched in pathfinder)
This leaves rogues (which can compete only dealing non lethal damage so I'll ignore them), rangers and fighters.
I believe that barbarians at high-ish level are the best of the three (around after level 13, after come and get me, pounce and raging brutality), of course only until their rage lasts.
Their strong points are:
Come and get me: grants the barbarian potentially more attacks than anyone else in the game. You must consider however that an enemy must be willing to attack you in melee (with melee attacks) for it to work.
Beast totem, greater: grants pounce, which allows a barbarian to full attack more often than other meleers: difficult terrain and allies, since you can't charge through them, but dragon style take care of that (you have to spend two feats however, in addition to the three rage powers to get pounce, so it's not free).
Reckless abandon: allow to keep to hit slightly ahead of a fighter (but lower even more his already low AC)
Furious weapon property: a bit worse than gloves of dueling but helps too. Between rage, reckless abandon and furious weapon the barbarian should have a higher to hit than a fighter and a ranger against its favored enemy.
Raging brutality: this costs a swift action and 3 rounds of rage, but 1.5 CONMOD to damage is huge. Most barbarian will have raging vitality and a decent CON to begin with, it's more than 10 points of damage per hit (can easily get above 20 dmg at level 20 with a 14 starting CON). With this the barbarian (already close in terms of damage per hit to the fighter and ranger) get by far the highest damage per hit of the three.
There is more stuff the barbarian can use, but that's pretty much those above that make him number one. That is, provided that:
1) he has enough rounds of rage
2) that he can pounce (not obstructed, even minions in the line of charge are a problem)
3) he fights against an enemy who is willing to attack him
As you see there are a lot of if.
Barbarians can shine very bright: not all will, and even those with the potential to achieve those monster DPS will do it very often.
If you look at the most damage dealt over the course of their carrier on single enemies I think the best ones are archers (fighter or ranger, maybe monks).
@Neberwrlfer: that's why I said depends on single target or multitarget. Afaik, empowered maximized is 100% max +50% of die, not 150% max. To your "only 220" you have to add maximized quickened chainlightning for another 160, that's "only" 380 damage, multiplied by the number of targets.
And that's using chainlightning. A Wall of Lava can do quite more, actually.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt with the dice. Assuming an average roll, you're doing 195 per target with the single spell. Throwing in another quickened will get you a total of 355 to a single target.
That number is significantly less than the 200d6+2400 number you threw out at the beginning. That is what I was disputing.
my first sentence in that post is that it depends on how do you calculate DPR. In single target, a chain lightning specialist can do 355. Multitarget, it's 355 per target. You only need 3 monsters to do 1000+ damage. With 10 targets (not unheard of, have seen a LOT of combats with 10 enemies), that's about 3000+ danage. 20 target is not very common, though.
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A twinked ranger (or zen archet) with a bow will outdamage a barbarian; he effectively "pounces", and gets 2 extra attacks (rapid / multi). After 6 they have improved precise; and they should hit more often and have more damage overall. They can even clustershot now to get past their old enemy (DR). Against favored enemies the gap widens further.
Highest single target damage IMO is actually a well built Horizon Walker. Might need Instant Enemy wand to actually get his attack and damage bonus, but it can get very high if he has some rogue levels in order to spam feats on Extra Talent.
A twinked ranger (or zen archet) with a bow will outdamage a barbarian; he effectively "pounces", and gets 2 extra attacks (rapid / multi). After 6 they have improved precise; and they should hit more often and have more damage overall. They can even clustershot now to get past their old enemy (DR). Against favored enemies the gap widens further.
It's right to say that he gets 2 extra attacks. But you have to consider that 1d8 from bow is less than 2d6 from two handed sword (enlarge also factor in), and bow often has less STR to add to damage, plus Barbarian add 1.5 STR mod and 1.5 power attack mod.
It's not so clear that the archer wins that easy.
It'll be nice if people back up their candidates with some numbers, to be honest.
EDIT: clarifying the set up also help. 1 target? What AC? (might be important with itterative attacks and power attack) What distance does the combat start? Can you full round, or do you have to charge (not every class can pounce, mind you)
For example: against single target, a wizard evoker with perfect spell Wall of Lava, maximize spell, a rod of empowerement, a rod of quickening, and Magic Lineage: Wall of Lava, can do 702 damage. If the monster has some vulnerability (doesn't matter which one, as he can swap his lava to match whatever element he needs), multiply that for 1.5, for 1053 damage. Yes, this is circunstantial, as not every monster has vulnerability. But not everymonster is your favored enemy, or an evil outsider you can smite either.
So that's it. 702 single target base damage, plus up to 1053 under certain circumstances, with no saves (and 1 ranged ranged touch attack that should be trivial) What's the damage output a barbarian can do, against, say, AC 38?
A pre-nerf zen archer very well might do the trick. Ditto archery sohei.
Is the nerf official yet?
Only for PF Society, as far as I know. For any home game DM, there is no official release such as FAQ or errata stating so, and the details are still being worked out such that in the end Sohei, Zen Archer, and others will still be able to function. Supposedly. Best to not bring it up at all if your DM isn't aware. If what they claim is true, it'll end up working itself out in the end anyway, bringing it up while the rules are in flux just brings unnecessary pain on yourself. :(
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I think even before level 6, Barb is easily outdamaged by other classes, Steel Wind.
Archer or gunslinger with rapid shot probably does slightly more average damage just by having more attacks. Viv. Alchemist that can get sneak attack w/ claws and bite does more, especially once (if allowed) he can buy that CL 20 GMF potion and get 3 2nd level extract slots per day ~level 5. Magus can also easily outdamage Barb at early levels w/ shocking grasp spellstrikes. Synthesist has pounce, 3 natural weapons, and various other buffs plus enlarge person on his spell list.
I like Barb, but in PF they are so very not the uber damage class. CAGM, Invulnerable Rager, and rage hopping to use once/rage powers every round is all that keeps them relevant, mechanically.
I think you need to reconsider your views based upon the damage output of a Str 20/24+ barbarian, power attacking + cleaving with reckless abandon while enlarged. The Magus is not in the same league as the Barbarian at low levels. Mid-level? Ok, I'm with you.
Cleave is an underrated feat. I think far too many GMs metagame positioning of foes to make foes difficult to cleave, while not having foes take cover from arrow fire when they should. Rapid shot's pretty groovy at 3rd level I grant you -- but so is cleave. And cleave is there at 1st level, too, if you want it to be.
At 2nd level this Barbarian is cleaving with reach at +9 for what, 3d6 +10 or 11 while enlarged? His cleaves are very likely to hit, too. With reach, getting foes to be adjacent for a cleave is much easier. At the lower level range, this kind of damage output is ruinous and outshines all other classes -- even musket masters (which is saying something). The Barb is hitting for that damage while enlarged at first level for that matter. Potions of enlarge person are easily the best low level magic item in the game and they remain relevant all the way through the game, too. With an instant effect, in potion form + accelerated drinker? They are far better than the spell and they really make the barbarian shine for a pittance in terms of GP cost.
The magus takes a while to come into his own with spell strike; whereas an optimized barbarian is hitting for that kind of damage essentially out of the gate.
3d6+9 at 1st level is pretty impressive. Any level appropriate foe you engage at that level will fall to that hit. It's like mowing through the opponents with a weed eater.
Higher levels bring different power considerations to be sure. The difference is: not every PC is going to reach 12th level or 15th. But every PC you play will hit 1st level. Advantages which favor lower level characters are the advantages which shine the brightest in the game.
Or at least -- they should if you are being objective about it.
I just posted in the Summer Olympics thread.
A level 10 gnome crossblooded sorcerer has an average of 279.92 damage per round, while having 92 hp, AC 25 and +8, +9 and +11 to Saves, in single target.
There isn't ANYTHING better than a Barbarian for high sustained damage?
Is this a serious question or do you just want to have a popcorn + cinema thread unfold with all the "casters vs. non-casters", "paladin vs. barbarian vs. fighter vs. ranger" etc. posts in there? :-P
If not - what is the definition of "THE BEST"?
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"oooh im a barbarian i have a big axe and i hit people a bunch with it. "
hi im a wizard moderately optimized. i crowd "control/dominate/debuff/summon/buff/damage/ and act as liaison/travel services for the entire party."
"but look i have a big axe and i hit people really hard with it."
"yeah yeah we all know good job boris you go hit stuff here let me line them up for you and make sure you dont kill yourself berserking through a battlefield."
"yeah whatever stupid casty always putting up walls so i cant fight 100 enemies all at once thats why i took greater cleave."
"here you go boris enjoy the multitude of buffs and magic items i have crafted and prepared for you to greatly increase your battle prowess"
"YEAH!!! i wanna move faster hit harder and make it so everyone cant hit me too"
"ok off you go little scamp have fun on the playground"
off the barbarian runs into the frey as the cleric and wizard continue the conversation
cleric"why do you keep doing this to me off he goes to get himself squished and im expected to run after him to keep him on 2 feet long enough to take the next hit."
wizard "lol you better get going "
off goes the cleric after the raging nuissance.
ranger says to the wizard
"hey man can you put up a wall to stop all teh baddies from getting to us then make me fly so i can soar over the wall and shoot from the safety of your makeshift fortress"
"of course would you like a few summoned monsters to grapple your enemies to further lower there ac??"
"you know just how i like it"
but yeah barbarians hit hard keep tellign yourself thats important.
Synthesist is probably top, archer something is safer, paladin is situational, blaster caster for multi target.
I'd put forward a feral combat training(claws) dragon style druid with pounce and planar wild shape, bite/claw/claw/claw/claw all at maximum to hit with his level as a bonus on damage while smiting, probably won't beat synthesist but it should get close. Probably scarier even that an archer paladin for the target it smites, it can have grab and rake as well as pounce and with a high str score from being large or huge it takes great advantage of dragon style. Oh and with natutal spell its still a full caster.
He gave a range of 1-5. He also stated "sustained". I still say archers but a barbarian won't very far off. Heck none of the melee types will. At these levels (pre iterative attacks) everyone is fairly close.
There isn't ANYTHING better than a Barbarian for high sustained damage?
Smiting Paladin with Touch of Rage (Eldritch Heritage feat) and Opportunistic Gambler (Trait).
Or a well-built and properly-buffed Eidolon and Summoner working in tendem.
Both characters are more survivable as well.
If its level 1-5 for sustained damage then its definately an archer build, probably monk. If your actually going to level it 1-5 then its either fighter or ranger if you can predict your opponents.
Just depends on how often favoured enemy comes into play as to which is better really. Monk might come in as well but to really hit big numbers everyone other than fighter and ranger rely on a limited resource, barb - rage, monk - ki, pally - smite, cav - challenge, simple fact is you cant put up sustained damage numbers if you can only do it once/twice a day or for 10-15 rounds a day.
Maximized gives you max damage on your die rolls, that is 120 for 20d6.
Empowered increases all variable damage by 50%, that comes to 180.
This is incorrect, the actual damage is 120 + 10d6. You cannot maximize the empowered part. Take a look.
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This is incorrect, the actual damage is 120 + 10d6. You cannot maximize the empowered part. Take a look.Maximized gives you max damage on your die rolls, that is 120 for 20d6.
Empowered increases all variable damage by 50%, that comes to 180.
I am aware of that. Read further down when I said I was giving him the benefit of the doubt on the bonus dice.