Basic Idea came from another thread, but I'm curious how you guys think it would play out.
What would be the best way to ENSURE that enemies fall into one of the Create Pit spells from the APG? I'd like to make a character that can pretty much do it by himself, rather than a set of team-members.
Thoughts to consider:
-Hydraulic Push
-Shield Slam
-Do the Bull Rush line of feats give their bonuses to Hydraulic Push?
-Reach weapons for when people try to get out of the pit or away from its edge
-Other factors?
Any ideas on how to make a self sufficient character who can excel at this tactic while still being a fairly well-rounded character?
Are there any good summon-able critters with good CMB for Bull Rushing?
Are there any good summon-able critters with good CMB for Bull Rushing?
An interesting thought... I shall have to look into it.
On that note, I know the easiest answer to this question is probably: Play a Summoner, Jack up the DC of your Pit spells, then make your Eidolon a beast at Bull Rushing people. However, we don't use the Summoner class in my group, so I'm looking for a more creative solution.
Aqueous Orb
Improved Bull Rush would indeed give a bonus to Hydraulic Push, but that requires 13 STR and Power Attack before you can even get it.
I've been playing just this sort of character and Hydraulic Push has been so-so. The enemy usually moves away from the sloping edge of the pit at the first opportunity (and before your next turn comes up) so the roll has to beat CMD + 5, which shifts it from plausible to unlikely.
Earth Elementals have Improved Bull Rush and you can actually order them to push people in if you speak Terran. An Air Elemental's Vortex would also work (or you could just have it fly straight up and drop them on the ground). A Celestial animal would require a Handle Animal check to "push" as a standard.
Personally I'm just jacking up the DC of my Pit spells and hoping they work on the first try. I may also drop an Aqueous Orb full of mooks down a hole in the future, because it is funny. They'd probably ignore the first 20 feet of falling, though.
Improved Bull Rush would indeed give a bonus to Hydraulic Push, but that requires 13 STR and Power Attack before you can even get it.
I've been playing just this sort of character and Hydraulic Push has been so-so. The enemy usually moves away from the sloping edge of the pit at the first opportunity (and before your next turn comes up) so the roll has to beat CMD + 5, which shifts it from plausible to unlikely.
Earth Elementals have Improved Bull Rush and you can actually order them to push people in if you speak Terran. An Air Elemental's Vortex would also work (or you could just have it fly straight up and drop them on the ground). A Celestial animal would require a Handle Animal check to "push" as a standard.
Personally I'm just jacking up the DC of my Pit spells and hoping they work on the first try. I may also drop an Aqueous Orb full of mooks down a hole in the future, because it is funny. They'd probably ignore the first 20 feet of falling, though.
Yeah, the moving away is a concern I had thought of. Other than using team-members as insurance against that, my only other option has been to craft a melee-caster character and put the pit right near me so I can enforce at least one edge. That's getting into some serious MAD territory though, and it might be better to just jam my initial saves through the roof to begin with.
Hmmm.
Or you could use the Claw of the Crawling Spell to move the pit under the NPCs.
*shameless plug.
Make a caster who can use said spells, and either ally with a PC or take leadership to gain as a cohort, this guy.
Creating the pit and then casting telekinesis to bull rush people into it also works decently...
I do this with my sorcerer. Hydraulic Push is very good at knocking people around and is probably what I'd use for low levels. Once you get higher I'd combine use of Hydraulic Push with a summoned earth elemental when you want to reliably move people more than 5ft. A large earth elemental is going to have about the same CMB bonus to the bull rush check as a Hydraulic Push. HP's big weakness in my opinion is that it allows for SR, which is annoying.
Another thing to note about Hydraulic Push is the way the spell is written:
Since the text of Hydraulic Push specifies you as the one making the bull rush then RAW you would be able to apply the bull rush feats to the spell if you had them, though I'd clear this with my GM before going that route. ETA: Telekinesis has the same wording as Hydraulic Push.
Folks have already covered all the main ways I can think up off the top of my head: hydraulic push, telekinesis, bull-rushing earth elementals, and aqueous orb.
It may also be worth starting with a 13 Str for PA/IBR/GBR. I can't come up with any reason those shouldn't work with hydraulic push or telekinesis, since you're the one making the check. Its no different from True Strike applying to the roll. Obviously, if earth elementals become the method of choice, those feats would not apply (nor would true strike of course).
The bit about being a divination specialist with the foresight subschool is also clutch IMO. Those re-rolls are going to be very helpful.
Its also probably worth pumping initial saves higher via SF, GSF, high Int, and perhaps the Lore Seeker trait. Other than that, I can't think of anything else to add that will help you get them in the pit.
What I can add though, is a bit of advice for making it that much worse when they do fall in the pit: Staggering Fall
Enemy falls in, you get an Immediate action follow-up to make it cost a standard to stand up, and stagger them as well. Makes it that much harder to collect themselves at the bottom then get out of the pit. Can also be used on tripping, which may come up as well. If you're using this trick a lot, investing in a wand of SF may be worthwhile.
Obviously, you can't use SF and a quickened spell in the same round, but this would give you a standard routine whether they fail the initial save or not. Fail save and fall in? Use staggering fall and make their life miserable. Succeed at save and end up at edge of pit? Quickened hydraulic push or telekinesis, and their life is still miserable.
How about Charm spells. "Hey you... why dont you go jump into that big hole i just made... dont worry it will be cool!".
Also I second the summon monster and then creat pit for maximum effect.
Charm
Summon Monster
Leadership
Hydrolic Push
TK
Tons of options. I love the pit spells btw. I wish the higher level ones had something to combat flying creatures.
I've occasionally used the one-two punch of Unprepared Combatant followed by a Pit. -4 to Reflex saves doesn't guarantee entrapment, but it can't hurt. It also targets will, so it's a way to knock a high Dex, high Reflex baddie with a bad Will save down to size a bit.
Consider also that it's a first level spell. So a 9th level wizard with Quicken Spell and Persistent Spell can zap a target with a Quickened Unprep C and a Persistent, Enlarged Pit in the same round to try and get multiple guys or a Huge Monster into a Pit. Spell Focus: Conjuration won't hurt either. A 2nd level wizard can do it in 2 rounds without the metamagic.
Bull rushing Earth Elementals isn't bad, but any summoned critter with a decent grapple will get the job done. A constrictor snake comes to mind, and a Leopard will be good at running a target down and making sure they get stuck in that pit when it comes. And now there's a Leopard ripping them up or a Constrictor choking them, making it much more difficult to climb out of that Pit.
Grapple says -4 to Dexterity, but it also says that the victim can't move. I think most GMs would rule that they fall in the pit if your summoned critter mucks their Reflex save.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I am apalled that no one has mentioned readied actions yet! ;)
Remember, if a creature ends its turn adjacent to a pit, it has to make a new save (albeit at +2) or fall in.
If there's some distance between an Orc and your buddy, and you cast Create Pit on your turn, it goes like this:
"I cast create pit under the Orc."
GM: He makes his save. His turn, he advanced on Fred and attacks.
BUT, if you instead ready an action to cast when the Orc becomes adjacent to Fred, it goes like this:
"I ready an action to cast if the Orc advanced on Fred."
GM: He moves up; cast your spell.
"Create Pit."
GM: He makes his save.
Now he's on the lip of the pit, and has to choose between attacking Fred and needing a second save, or moving away from the pit and taking an AoO without doing any attacking!
Two thoughts:
1) Force Punch is another spell that can move people into the pit.
2) A Cleric with the Caves subdomain gets Create Pit, Spiked Pit and Hungry Pit. Better BAB means better bull rushing, shield bashing, etc., if you want to push them into the pit yourself.
For example, here is something I threw together real quick:
Dwarf Cleric 9
Alternate racial trait:
Relentless (+2 Bull Rush and Overrun)
Stats (15-point)
Str: 16 (15 + 1 level)
Dex: 10
Con 14 (12 + 2 race)
Int: 10
Wis: 17 (14 + 2 race + 1 level)
Cha: 9 (11 - 2 race)
Domains:
Caves (Earth)
Archon (Good)
Feats:
1 - Power Attack
3 - Imp. Bull Rush
5 - Imp. Initiative
7 - Persistent Spell
9 - Imp. Bull Rush
Round 1 - Activate Aura of Menace (Enemies get -2 saves, among other penalties)
Round 2 - Persistent Spiked Pit (DC 16, requires two saves. DC higher with magic items)
Round 3 - Bull Rush! CMB +15 (higher with magic items, buffs)
As far as summoning elementals goes, against any foes made of or wearing/using metal items, the Lightning Elemental gets an obscene CMB.
Eidolons can get the Push evolution for 1 point and Summoners know all the pit spells.
Vanilla Summoner FTW.
Eidolons can get the Push evolution for 1 point and Summoners know all the pit spells.
Vanilla Summoner FTW.
Me earlier: "On that note, I know the easiest answer to this question is probably: Play a Summoner, Jack up the DC of your Pit spells, then make your Eidolon a beast at Bull Rushing people. However, we don't use the Summoner class in my group, so I'm looking for a more creative solution."
Definitely the easiest way to do it, and something I would use if we allowed Summoners.
@Jiggy: The readied action with the Pit spell is an awesome idea. I was thinking of different "tag team" ideas like that, and one that comes to mind is having your buddy be a sword and board guy with shield slam. That way, he'll probably bull rush on his AoO if the baddy tries to suck one up and move away from the edge of the pit. Either way, waiting to cast the Pit spells till after a bad guy has already spent their move action is an AWESOME tactic. Good job by you.
Keep the ideas comin! These are fantastic.
Summoner with an edilion specifically built to push/trip.
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Oh! Fun Fact:
Somebody mentioned enemies teleporting out of the pit, but it's an extradimensional space so you'd need something that can cross planar boundaries with accuracy, so that's a plane shift + greater teleport or maybe a gate. With just teleport or d.door you could maybe teleport to near the edge and then you'd need both Reflex and Climb checks.
The Lightning Elemental is a good idea, although there a few limitations. It'll provoke an AoO on the bull rush, it only works when there's metal and it has to charge to get the bonus, so it needs to start its turn 10' away from the target. Do its two abilities stack to give a +13 on the bull rush?
Oh! Fun Fact:
Somebody mentioned enemies teleporting out of the pit, but it's an extradimensional space so you'd need something that can cross planar boundaries with accuracy, so that's a plane shift + greater teleport or maybe a gate. With just teleport or d.door you could maybe teleport to near the edge and then you'd need both Reflex and Climb checks.
Whoa!
I did not know that. I'm going to bring that to my GM's attention. My sorcerer's pit spells just got better.
Wow, that rod is surprisingly inexpensive (4500g).
I think it's better used on Aqueous Orb, though, since we're all apparently the kind of players who like a little damage mixed with battlefield control. A single Persistent Aqueous Orb could easily force a dozen or more extra saves.
Oh! Fun Fact:
Somebody mentioned enemies teleporting out of the pit, but it's an extradimensional space so you'd need something that can cross planar boundaries with accuracy, so that's a plane shift + greater teleport or maybe a gate. With just teleport or d.door you could maybe teleport to near the edge and then you'd need both Reflex and Climb checks.
The Lightning Elemental is a good idea, although there a few limitations. It'll provoke an AoO on the bull rush, it only works when there's metal and it has to charge to get the bonus, so it needs to start its turn 10' away from the target. Do its two abilities stack to give a +13 on the bull rush?
I...don't think it's that powerful. You can climb out, not being able to teleport out is really silly.
Lightning Elementals: It would be situational, but it's only one option for summoning, so you use it when it would apply favorably. And nothing stops it from being summoned 10 ft away from a foe and charging the round it comes in. The bonuses are untyped and combat maneuvers benefit from attack bonuses, so they WOULD stack.
Lightning Elemental
Spark Leap (Ex) A lightning elemental gains a +10 bonus on bull rush, disarm, overrun, and trip attacks when it charges a creature against whom its metal mastery ability applies.
EDIT: Better question might be...is the bonus from Spark Leap on top of the regular +2 attack bonus for charging, or in place of it?
I gave this some thought a while back on a rainy day. A cleric with the animal and caves domains could be fun. For your animal companion you grab a Pachycephalosaurus and use it to bullrush after you've got your pit set. Pick up boon companion to offset level difference. It isn't the most effective set; however, it does keep some versatility, action economy, and the ability to heal. More of a support style character.
Teleport spells move you to a location on the same plane and extradimensional spaces are not part of any "dimension". Not being able to teleport through a planar portal you're standing in front of and could just walk through seems equally silly. And if you can teleport out of Created Pits, you can teleport into Bags of Holding, so it's pick your poison.
The more I think about it, the more I think all of those would stack for the Lightning Elemental, making the charge pretty much a sure thing. Summoning 1d3 elementals would give you 1d3 sure things. You'd only want to summon the Earth Elemental if you valued its higher damage and toughness in the rounds after the shove, I think.
The more I think about it, the more I think all of those would stack for the Lightning Elemental, making the charge pretty much a sure thing. Summoning 1d3 elementals would give you 1d3 sure things. You'd only want to summon the Earth Elemental if you valued its higher damage and toughness in the rounds after the shove, I think.
Or you could just create more pits or shove more enemies into pits you already have...
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I...don't think it's that powerful. You can climb out, not being able to teleport out is really silly.
Lightning Elementals: It would be situational, but it's only one option for summoning, so you use it when it would apply favorably. And nothing stops it from being summoned 10 ft away from a foe and charging the round it comes in. The bonuses are untyped and combat maneuvers benefit from attack bonuses, so they WOULD stack.
Lightning Elemental** spoiler omitted **
EDIT: Better question might be...is the bonus from Spark Leap on top of the regular +2 attack bonus for charging, or in place of it?
until you realise that a quickened create pit+ bull rush + wall of stone = threat neutralized
create pit and ring of the ram.
create pit and ring of the ram.
Ring of the Ram is great! It doesn't do much damage on its own, but it's great for moving opponents around the battlefield. Multiple charges increase the damage significantly, but barely affect the CMB to push the target.
They are also fun in conjunction with walls of fire, lingering fireballs, and the like.
Also, if you go the Summoner and Pushing Eidolon route, you have to name your eidolon Pendulum. ;-D
Also, if you go the Summoner and Pushing Eidolon route, you have to name your eidolon Pendulum. ;-D
That post is so WIN.
Also, if you go the Summoner and Pushing Eidolon route, you have to name your eidolon Pendulum. ;-DThat post is so WIN.
Sweet.
Maybe combine Create Pit with Entangle? -4 Dex, right? And maybe sickened or shaken to get another -2 to Reflex Saves.