Hey guys,
So I've made a Cleric for Kingmaker who's been chosen by myself and the GM to become ruler (once the campaign kicks off).
If anyone has seen an Animé called Code Geass, I've based my character on the main protagonist (Lelouch).
I won't be wearing armour and as guns aren't allowed in this campaign, I'll be using a Masterwork Darkwood Heavy Repeating Crossbow to attack at range instead. Although primarily, I won't be attacking at all.
Instead, I'll be commanding everyone to do my bidding, using strategy to my advantage and Diplomacy to hopefully convince my enemies/anyone I come across to join my cause and fight for me.
Now, this brings me to my main point. With my stats below, assuming I haven't finalised my traits or feats yet (I've chosen them, but we're not starting until two weeks time, so I can change things around still), is there some way I can make Murderous Command and Command more effective so it would actually be a viable option to use in combat, should I need to go up close?
As it stands, I think the enemies just need to beat a 13, so it's a pretty pathetic option, but if I can boost the DC of it somehow and get the Wizard of the party to de-buff their wisdom modifier, it'd be a lot more effective!
Str: 7
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Wis: 14
Int: 9
Cha: 18
AC: 12
HP: 10
Skills:
Diplomacy: 9
Knowledge Nobility: 3
Perception: 2
Domains - (Nobility) Leadership and (Travel) Trade
Thanks for the help!
One trick that I've used is to take the trait Magical Lineage and the feat Extend Spell. An Extended (Murderous) Command is significantly more useful than a regular Command, in my experience.
If you took a level of Sorcerer with the Fey bloodline, that would give you a +2 on compulsion spells, for what it's worth.
Also note that the Inevitable subdomain would give you Command as a (Su) ability usable 5 times per day -- as a bonus, it avoids SR and the DC automatically scales with level.
I like the idea of the Inevitable Subdomain as that could get interesting if my guy is a King who can command people to drop to his feet/run away.
My only issue now is I need the Trade subdomain, but the Leadership one is also quite nice.
I also have to be a Cleric because there's no healer. I was originally going to be a Monk I designed months back now, but a new person in the group is playing as a fighter type because it's easier for him to understand the game that way, then the guy who's usually the Cleric wanted to be a Wizard, so it was only fair he wasn't this time. Then, the guy who is always using frontline fighters refused to be a Cleric just once in his life to let me try out my Monk (not ever used one), so yet again he's a frontline fighter in the form of a Ninja this time.
So yea, I was forced to play a Cleric. The GM made sure one of us was, so I figured if it were me, I'd just reluctantly make one that I can use however I please.
The Ninja player always relies on the party Cleric to heal him, will moan if you don't and then refuses to ever be one himself. My guy just sees people who he doesn't know (or care to know) as pawns, so that's fine by me. He'd be silly to rely on me as I'll only be aiding those who benefit my purpose.
Still gutted I couldn't use my Martial Artist Monk, though. I've waited several months to play him and still can't. :/
As for spells, does it really matter if you can cast 4th or 6th level spells at level 1? You'll always be able to cast 9th level spells if you stick to the Cleric class until level 20 anyway.
Also, I can't really swap my Charisma and Wisdom because I'm using my Charisma for Channels and Diplomacy, but it would have been nice. I guess my only option is to take Spell Focus (Compulsion) and go with the Inevitable subdomain, taking my Murderous Command up to a DC 15, which is only barely useful at the start of the game. :/
Alias: Lelouch Vi Britannia
Sister: Nunnally Orlovsky
Father: Charles Orlovsky
Mother: Marianne Orlovsky (formerly Vi Britannia)
Uncle: Lord Poul Orlovsky
Born with such a well known name, Lelouch has had the privilege of noble upbringing under the control of House Orlovsky.
Much like his father, he dislikes conflict, but where as his family name suggests he'd be more likely to avoid it, if he's pushed, Lelouch will stand his ground and fight for what he believes in. He may not like conflict, but he likes being stepped on by others, even less.
When pushed, he'll use conflict to his advantage, manipulating and convincing others to do his bidding. He's very intelligent and harbors the qualities of a natural born leader, using charm, good looks and cleverly devised tactics as his tools of persuasion.
He very rarely gets into a battle himself as he knows his body's not built for taking the hits that fearless warriors quite often receive. Instead, he likes to sit back and watch things pan out, seeing people as his pawns in a bloody and violent real life game of Chess. He knows when to fight, when to run and what formations his pawns should enter during battle and commands those working for him as he sees fit. His main objective is always to come out on top, even if that means taking casualties.
In short, Lelouch is a tactician of the highest calibre. He has the ability to see what needs doing and act on it faster than his opponents can (in most situations). That is what gives him the edge in combat. He has the mind and traits of a great ruler.
Although not very common, he's been known to put his family members in danger if he thinks it can achieve a greater good, but he does care about his family enough to understand how his decisions would effect them and so he chooses his options wisely. He also values friendship.
On the topic of friendship, that is one thing he doesn't care for when it comes to unwillingly crossing paths with members of House Lebeda. Like his uncle, Lelouch sees House Lebeda as Opportunistic people who have to live off of the success of other Nobles, seeing them as unworthy and undeserving of any respect.
Lelouch is good at taking into account what people do best and as a result of this, many people are loyal to him and are constantly offer him their support.
His preferred tactics are to stay at the back where he has a good view of the battlefield. This gives him time to analyse the situation and decide on what commands to give his units/pawns. On the battlefield, his words keep moral up, inspiring his fighters to do their best which gives them the courage they need to fight on fearlessly.
It's unknown whether it's to do with House Orlovsky or just Lelouch himself, but Abadar seems to favour him in battle, granting aid when he needs it most. Having the ability to heal others often secures his victory, but staying out of combat is the way Lelouch prefers to fight. His men don't seem to mind following orders as they know all too well, just how capable Lelouch is at forming successful strategies.
Once everything is in place, Lelouch prefers to stay at range, occassionally helping his allies out when they're in dire need of assistance. This is incredibly rare, but he keeps a Heavy Crossbow on himself at all times. Not many people know or have even witnessed this, but it's been said that on very rare occasions when the fear of death takes over his men, Lelouch has been known to step into the heat of battle and command his enemies to kill each other.
Members of the public often question whether he's a man or a god? In his mind, he's just Lelouch Orlovsky doing what he does best.
Currently I am running an level 5 oracle with murderous command DC of 16, and I am still turning bruisers against their own parties with hilarious ease. The GM forgets to roll a Will Save half the time because they almost never make their save anyway. I would definitely invest in wisdomA boosting items though. Owl's Wisdom is useful for a quick +2. Also
Spell Focus (enchantment) to increase your DC another +2 for all enchantment spells.
Spell focus increases the DC by +1.
Not sure why you "have" to be a Cleric. There's alternatives for healing beyond that class (and even alternatives to healing altogether).
However, if your plan is to purely heal, then the Cleric really isn't the best at that. The Oracle with the Life mystery has a much better assortment of tools for healing at hand, still gets Channel, and focuses on Charisma instead of Wisdom. An 18 Charisma is both your social buff as well as your spellcasting buff.
DCs would be 14 + spell level to start (so DC 15). As a spontaneous caster, Heighten spell is good for on the fly super-pumping the DC (using your highest level slot to kick in that extra high DC).
Spell Focus (and Greater Spell Focus) will increase the DCs another +2. Consider also, the list of spells it will boost:
Hold Person
Calm Emotions
Enthrall
Zone of Truth
Many of which are great for messing with people in combat, or nice tricks for social encounters.
If you're still building it, Magical Lineage trait (Murderous Command), and then the Bouncing Spell (Metamagic) feat. If you fail your first attempt, you get a free attempt against someone else in the enemy party.
I've seen Code Geass and it's one of my favorite anime. I do not think cleric is the best route to go for this. Have you considered Oracle with the Lame curse (to represent Lelouch's poor athletics)? It uses the same spell list but is cha-based.
The ideal class for Lelouch is the D&D 3.5 Beguiler with a splash of the Mindbender prestige class. But if limited to PF, I'd say Witch is the best bet. Enchanter Wizard or Sorcerer would also work better than cleric, IMO.
As far as boosting Murderous Command, Bouncing Spell is a great suggestion, since you'd only be using the spell when 2+ enemies are near each other anyway. Note that the spell is verbal only. If you got a lesser Silent Spell meta rod or the feat, you could use the spell in non-combat situations and no one would even realize you were the one manipulating them into attacking friends. Fights between former allies would almost surely break out at that point. *evil smirk*
If it helps, I had an idea for him a while ago myself, though it was using 3E rules: Lelouch
I don't know. The guy running it just said one of us has to be as he wants one in his campaign. I like the Oracle idea though. I just need something that will allow me to control my enemies and boost my allies up.
I like the Cleric because it gives me leadership abilities and gives me access to things such as Dimensional Hop that get me around the battlefield with ease.
@StreamOfTheSky - I haven't actually checked out the Oracle for this, as I didn't like them when I previously looked at them. :/
I'm limited to Pathfinder only, but can use everything from Core, APG, Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat. :)
Hmm, PF grossly oversimplified the Spellcraft rules... PRD has this:
"Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors."
3E was much clearer on the point:
"Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry."
Oh well, in any case, no guarantee every area has someone that can spellcraft, and you can still circumvent that w/ Improved Invisibility, if available.
Bandavaar: Oracle is absolutely weaker than cleric in every way possible, no doubt. But, you said you wanted to make Lelouch, and if i were to score his mental stats, it'd be like Int>Cha>>>Wis. Which is a terrible mental array for a cleric. It's worth noting Witch can also heal, just not nearly as well as the cleric.
Perhaps make a witch, refluff Slumber to being "you issue forth a mental command and your now pliant servant willingly kneels before you, head hung low, awaiting execution for defying you," and use it as your main attack. Mechanically works out about the same as sleep (they do nothing till someone snaps them out of it or they get coup de grace'd and likely killed). And witch gets a lot of mind-affecting enchantments, though some are annoyingly missing. But...they get the dominates, holds, and geas spells, so pretty set there.
EDIT: Yeah, wow...you gave the Chessmaster an Int 9 just to make him half-decent as a cleric. That ain't right... :)
EDIT: Yeah, wow...you gave the Chessmaster an Int 9 just to make him half-decent as a cleric. That ain't right... :)
Haha, well technically I made this build on how Lelouch would act if he had even more power, but his Int and Wis should have been the same. However, I spoke to my GM before putting those stats in and oddly he sees Int and Wis as the same thing, just used differently. So, I went with the idea of him making wise choices to express his intelligence.
On level up's, I was thinking about boosting his Int with every stat point, but don't know yet.
I'll have a closer look at Oracle and Witch, but really I feel the need to just work a Cleric to have his abilities and then some. I'm pretty sure if he knew how to heal and debuff, he'd do that to keep his team/pawns alive. :p
If you're stuck on Cleric I'll second the suggestion to drop your CHA in favor of boosting your WIS. There's an ok cleric archetype that might fit what you're looking for: Evangelist.
If you decide to go oracle for CHA based spell-casting I'm not sure you could get away with it, but it's worth looking into or asking your GM about. There's a spiffy homebrew Oracle mystery I saw a while back.....Here. You could show it to your GM and see if he'll let you play it.
You might ask the GMif he has some reason that there has to be an actual cleric in the party.
If yes, would an eventual cohort work?
Does he just need a divine caster? That would include the oracle, druid, ranger, paladin, and inquisitor.
Does he just want a medic in the party? Oracle will usually work even better than cleric. Especially if oracle of life.
Okay, so the Oracle of Life is great, but I'll be sticking with the Cleric for this now.
I've decided that because I'm most familiar with the Cleric and like how it handles in comparison to an Oracle or Witch, I'll stick with that. However, I'm going with the Travel - Trade and Law - Inevitable domains instead.
I'm also dropping my Charisma to have a 16 in both Charisma and Wisdom. This means I have one less channel to use, but with what Wisdom gives me, I think it'll be a wise choice.
By level 17 I plan to have a DC 27 on my Command spells from the following:
10 + Spell Level + Wisdom Modifier + Heighten Spell + Spell Focus and greater
So that equals 10 + 1 + 3 + 8 + 1 + 1 = 24 (+3 Headband of Wisdom for 27, 29 if I put all level up points into Wisdom) - Hopefully that'll be fairly high to be able to use it often and make it a viable and successful choice in combat.
I don't know about Magical Lineage because I don't really know how dropping spells a level works.
I'll also be getting Extend Spell and Bounce Spell and hope to have Leadership as a feat for 7th level, but my GM says he possibly won't allow it as it's too much work for him and he won't allow for 200 people or so to follow me into combat. I argued that they might follow me, but that doesn't mean they'd follow me into combat. Like, I'd want two Armor Master guards in my Castle (or whatever you get) as my guards but my GM says no as that's what the PC's are for, even though Leadership would allow this and I wouldn't take people in.
I dunno, need some help on convincing him, but I wanted to turn allies into people who would join my cause and guard my city etc, with the possibility of turning some enemies onto my side with diplomacy, but he says it'll be too much work for him.
Any opinions on this guys? Thanks for the help so far btw!
I like travel domain, never big on law domain.
Unless, you have the bestiaries memorized or cast detect chaos all the time, in never seemed that great.
Magical lineage is pretty easy. It only works if you are applying metamagic to a spell. The level total level after increase is lowered by one.
Say you want to cast an empowered burning hands. Burning hands is a first level spell and empower raises it by two levels. So it would take a 3rd level slot to prepare/cast.
If you have magical lineage with buring hands, it would only use a 2nd level slot to prepare/cast.
If you are planning to cast the same spell very often and planning to apply metamagic to it alot, then magical lineage is very much worth it.
If you don't often use the same spell or don't use metamagic on it then it is a lousy feat.
As I'm going with Complusion spells over anything else, I'm planning on Heightening and Extending my spells wherever possible. Is there any point in getting myself Magical Lineage because of that? I think the spell level slot will be high regardless.
We're only allowed two traits and it's been ruled that one has to be a campaign trait, so taking that into account, my new stats are below.
Dex: 13
Con: 14
Wis: 16
Int: 11
Cha: 16
BAB: 0
CMB: -2
CMD: 10
Focus on Wisdom for level up stat points
Feats:
Level 1 - Extend Spell, Selective Channeling
Level 3 - Improved Initiative
Level 5 - Point Blank Shot
Level 7 - Precise Shot
Level 9 - Heighten Spell
Level 11 - Leadership
Level 13 - Combat Casting
Level 15 - Spell Focus Enchantment
Level 17 - Uncanny Concentration
Level 19 - Greater Spell Focus Enchantment
Skills:
Sense Motive: 7
Diplomacy: 8
Knowledge (Nobility): 4
Choose Rank for favoured class bonus.
Equipment:
Darkwood Masterwork Light Crossbow ( 40gp weight, 35gp, 300gp = 375gp) - 2lb's
Bolts x30 - 3gp, 3lb's
Zero Outfit - 26gp, 9lb's
Bedroll - 1sp, 5lb's
Rations x4 - 2gp, 4lb's
Money left - 493gp, 9sp
Traits:
Orlovsky - Your family has a reputation for avoiding
conflicts. You gain a +1 trait bonus on your CMD. In
addition, choose Acrobatics, Diplomacy, or Stealth—you
gain a +1 trait bonus on this skill. Your family motto is
“High Above.”
Rich Parents - 900gp
Also, with my Wisdom score, I was wondering how I determine when I have access to higher level spells?
Will I have access to level 9 spells at level 17 now that my Wis is +3 or will I still have to wait until level 20?
The campaign is Kingmaker and apparently money isn't an issue when we get into it, so I was going to get a Headband of Wis and Cha, plus a belt of Dex and Con, along with 1 ring of protection and 1 amulet of natural armour. Hopefully then I'll be a bit harder to hit!
Personally, I would drop the point blank and precise shot.
Your dex, BaB, and weapon are not really good enough to be a great archer.
But that's just me.
I would take the SF and GSF early in their places.
Assuming you put all ability increases in wisdom:
Lv => Wis => qualifys you for this level of spells (if your class level gives them yet)
1 => 16 => 6
4 => 17 => 7
8 => 18 => 8
12 => 19 => 9
So yes, that will give you the spells as soon as you class has spell slots at each level.
As I'm going with Complusion spells over anything else, I'm planning on Heightening and Extending my spells wherever possible. Is there any point in getting myself Magical Lineage because of that? I think the spell level slot will be high regardless.
At high levels, you probably won't care; you'll be casting spells like Greater Command instead. But at level 1, it's nice to be able to toss out a 2 round Extended Murderous Command (using a level 1 spell slot) instead of a 1 round Murderous Command.
Ah, that's great news!
I'm guessing it also means that if I heightened a spell at level 1 for example, even though I have no level 6 spells, it'll allow me to heighten it up to level 6? Or, will it not because heightening raises the spell level, meaning I'd have to wait until I could cast level 2 spells?
As for being an archer, I went with those two feats because it meant I was far more likely to hit if I had to defend myself or deal damage from afar, as the purpose of this character is to be weak, but strong with his power of manipulation and swaying people to his cause. Physically weak and slower than most, but wise, intelligent and an expert of strategy and tactics.
Instead of the point blank shot route, is there something you feel would be better suited to him, then?
I guess extra traits and toughness could be used as his feats, instead?
I just figured if he was going to be attacked and he had no spells left, the only thing he can rely upon at lower levels is his crossbow. Later on if he were to become King, it'd make more sense if he had bodyguards (to which I want to have the Armor Master - Fighter Archetype) who specialise in defence but are also great at offense.
I'll have to heighten and extend every Compulsion spell I cast to make the DC harder to surpass, but I don't know how high a spell slot that would take up, or when I could use it.
I'm always used to fighter types, but if I wasn't so ambitious and set in the way of having a unique and decent character concept, I wouldn't learn anything, so sorry for the questions!
@Hogarth - Would I not need to heighten and extend the spell at level 1 or would extending it be sufficient? I won't have Magical Lineage unless I have to swap out a feat for it, as I need the starting gold and have to have a campaign trait, so what's been decided can't really change.
I'm guessing it also means that if I heightened a spell at level 1 for example, even though I have no level 6 spells, it'll allow me to heighten it up to level 6?
It reduces the effective level by one. So if you heightened Murderous Command to level 6, it would take up a level 5 spell slot.
@Hogarth - Would I not need to heighten and extend the spell at level 1 or would extending it be sufficient?
If you took Magical Lineage (Murderous Command), then you could fit an Extended Murderous Command in a level 1 slot (base level 1, +1 for Extend Spell, -1 for Magical Lineage). I'm not sure why you're getting Heighten Spell mixed up into it.
I won't have Magical Lineage unless I have to swap out a feat for it, as I need the starting gold and have to have a campaign trait, so what's been decided can't really change.
I doubt you'll actually get much benefit out of the extra gold; certainly I don't think you need to be spending 300 gp on a masterwork crossbow right off the bat. Although money doesn't hurt, of course. :-)
As I said before, I think you want the bouncing spell metamagic feat. It's a +1 increase, which the magical lineage cancels out.
Bouncing means that if it fails against one target, either because they made the save or spell resistance, you get to retarget it to someone nearby. Basically, it doubles the chances for the spell to work.
Given the DC to resist Murderous Command, it's extremely powerful.
I agree; Bouncing Spell is quite good, too.
Well, I need to heighten and extend the spell because heightening means I can raise the DC they need to beat by 8 when I have access to level 9 spells and extend because if I command them to kill their ally, they'll have two rounds to do it instead of one. :p
So, I need to use both in conjunction, simultaneously.
Bouncing is nice, but is it worth switching out the point blank shot tree for it? I need some sort of defensive capability if I run out of spells....or maybe I don't. :/
The DC to resist Murderous Command isn't really that high because without heighten, it'd be a DC 10 + 1 (spell level) + 3 (Wisdom) = DC 14. That's pretty low, unfortunately. In fact, if all spells are counted as 0 level spells because it takes the spell slot down by 1, does that not in fact mean my DC would be 13 instead, due to the fact a level 1 spell is now considered a 0 level spell (obviously without it being classed as an orison that you can cast infinitely)?
I get Command as a Supernatural ability that levels up with me for having the Law domain, so it works out quite nicely.
As for my Crossbow, I guess it just doesn't matter about making it a Masterwork for now, because all I really want is for it to be made out of Darkwood, so I can carry it at half the weight.
Magical Lineage it is then!
Extend spell does not increase the DC only heighten does that.
Magical Lineage only decreases the total AFTER METAMAGIC IS APPLIED by 1 level. So it won't make command a level 0 spell.
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In my experience, after a few levels, clerics do not usually run out of spells unless acting as a healbot. it sounds like you do not intend to do this.
Even then, clerics are not as squishy as wizards. Any armor, shield, simple weapons, 3/4 BaB, d8, etc...
You are currently planning to take the 2 archer feats at 5th and 7th level. By then a back up weapon attack is much less necessary since you should be becoming a spell casting powerhouse. (Not as much as a wizard, but still significant.)
Extend spell does not increase the DC only heighten does that.
Magical Lineage only decreases the total AFTER METAMAGIC IS APPLIED by 1 level. So it won't make command a level 0 spell.
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In my experience, after a few levels, clerics do not usually run out of spells unless acting as a healbot. it sounds like you do not intend to do this.
Even then, clerics are not as squishy as wizards. Any armor, shield, simple weapons, 3/4 BaB, d8, etc...
You are currently planning to take the 2 archer feats at 5th and 7th level. By then a back up weapon attack is much less necessary since you should be becoming a spell casting powerhouse. (Not as much as a wizard, but still significant.)
Nah, I know about Extend not raising the DC. I was just saying it doubles the time the spell lasts.
Anyway, I've changed my loadout a fair bit because I'll be relying on my spells more than anything else, so a long ranged weapon is just as a precaution for defensive purposes.
With heightening a spell, at level 1, could I heighten a level 1 spell up to the power of a level 6 spell, due to my Wisdom score being 16 or is it sheerly limited to my Cleric table that only gives me a new spell level, practically every other level, meaning I'd have to wait until I was level 5 to cast an extended, heightened spell with a +3 DC instead of a +1 from Heighten?
I'll be supporting and healing where I feel it's needed, as I need those fighting for or with me to survive, but my main objective is to manipulate people and screw them over by telling them to do things such as "fall" when in combat with my flanking allies, giving them both an AoO. :p
I've also finalised my feat loadout:
Level 1 - Toughness, Selective Channeling
Level 3 - Extend Spell
Level 5 - Improved Initiative
Level 7 - Heighten Spell
Level 9 - Scribe Scroll
Level 11 - Bounce Spell
Level 13 - Combat Casting
Level 15 - Spell Focus Enchantment
Level 17 - Uncanny Concentration
Level 19 - Greater Spell Focus Enchantment
My GM reckons I'll die pretty fast, but said he hasn't ever seen a character played out like this, so doesn't really know how it'll work out.
I don't either, but if I'm careful and stay out of the way of most things and boost my own stats up with spells (when needed), I might be okay.
Still, it'd be nice to employ my own bodyguards, but I don't know if that'll happen and I'm only allowed to use my Leadership abilities at around level 12.
I've also been allowed lesser geas, but only at level 9 and had to sacrifice two useless spells (they're useless to me, at least) for it, so that'll be ineffective as most creatures by level 9 are above 7HD, so I'll try and get that at level 3 like the bard.
...With heightening a spell, at level 1, could I heighten a level 1 spell up to the power of a level 6 spell, due to my Wisdom score being 16 or is it sheerly limited to my Cleric table that only gives me a new spell level, practically every other level, meaning I'd have to wait until I was level 5 to cast an extended, heightened spell with a +3 DC instead of a +1 from Heighten?...
Uhmm, no. At cleric level 1, you only have a few slots to prepare level 1 spells. So you can only prepare level 1 spells.
i THINK you could heighten it up to a second level spell IF you have magical lineage since that would reduce the effective level back to 1. Then you can prepare it in 1 of your level 1 spell slots. But I am not sure of this interpritation. Someone will jump all over me if I'm wrong about that.The wisdom of 16 means that you will be able to cast 6th level spells when your cleric level is high enough. Which is at a cleric level of 11. See the table under the cleric class.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean with that long sentence. But at cleric level 5 you have 3rd level slots in which to prepare a spell. If you do not have magical lineage you could heighten command (a first level spell) 1 level and extend it which is another 1 level. That would make it a 3rd level spell and the DC would be as if it was a 2nd level spell. So the DC would be 10 + the spell level (in this case 2) + your ability modifier (in this case 3) = 15. However, you do not have heighten in your build until character level 7. If you had spell focus (or greater) the DC would go up. There are several racial, class, or magic things that could also raise it.
That is why if you really want to be a one trick pony that relies on the murderous command spell (which is how I understood your description at the beginning), I suggested getting spell focus, greater spell focus, and magical lineage as early as possible.
There is nothing wrong with the build you posted, I like it. I think it is better than the one trick pony. But I don't think you will be able to rely on the command spell as much as you said you wanted.
Also remember, the command spells are language dependant. The target has to understand you for it to work. So you need to know alot of languages.
Would you rather make two DC 13 will saves, or a single DC 14?
Just to repeat what others have said:
At level 1, you only have level 0 and level 1 spell slots. There's no way you can cast a 6th level spell like Murderous Command (heightened to level 6). I don't know where you're getting that idea.
Uhmm, no. At cleric level 1, you only have a few slots to prepare level 1 spells. So you can only prepare level 1 spells.
Ah, okay. I was just confused when people said my Wisdom score determined what level spell I could cast, as I thought you go by the Cleric table and not your Wisdom modifier when calculating which level spells you can cast.
i THINK you could heighten it up to a second level spell IF you have magical lineage since that would reduce the effective level back to 1. Then you can prepare it in 1 of your level 1 spell slots. But I am not sure of this interpritation. Someone will jump all over me if I'm wrong about that.
Would that not making heightening the spell pointless for that purpose? I mean the reason I'd be heightening spells is to increase the DC, not to lower it or keep it the same. :p
The wisdom of 16 means that you will be able to cast 6th level spells when your cleric level is high enough. Which is at a cleric level of 11. See the table under the cleric class.
Yea, that's where I was getting confused in regard to Wisdom effecting my spell levels. :)
If you had spell focus (or greater) the DC would go up. There are several racial, class, or magic things that could also raise it.
That is why if you really want to be a one trick pony that relies on the murderous command spell (which is how I understood your description at the beginning), I suggested getting spell focus, greater spell focus, and magical lineage as early as possible.
There is nothing wrong with the build you posted, I like it. I think it is better than the one trick pony. But I don't think you will be able to rely on the command spell as much as you said you wanted.
Yea, well the way I've built my character is so that I have as many defensive abilities in combat, possible. Improved Initiative and Toughness seemed like pretty good choices for this kind of build, but as for prioritising the Murderous Command spell, I was using that as an example as my main focus is to get all of my Compulsion/Enchantment spells to be as effective as possible, meaning the higher I can make the DC, the better.
However, I asked my GM if he'd allow me to work out a way to make Geas viable in combat and suggested to use it in the same way as lesser geas (so they can try to save against it and have a one round of casting it, but make it so you can attempt to control a creature of any HD), but he said no and instead told me I could have Lesser Geas in place of two spells that are useless to me, as well as Geas, but he'd only allow me to control creatures as the rules of the spell say (up to 7HD) and wouldn't allow it to scale with me as I focus in compulsion spells, which is a bit annoying. He also said I'd be allowed it at level 9, which to me makes things pointless as by then, most creatures have more than 7 HD.
Also remember, the command spells are language dependant. The target has to understand you for it to work. So you need to know alot of languages.
That, I didn't know.
I'm not too sure how to get around that one, as I have no skill slots left for it and it seems a waste of a spell to cast a language spell every time I want to control something. :/
I was also thinking about getting defensive spells, such as mark of death, to cast on the ground around me, so if anything comes after me specifically, I can be clever and run away in such a way that it'd run over the mark and kill itself.
One spell I haven't ever used before is Scribe Scroll. Simply put, do I just cast my chosen daily spells into the scroll (on days I'm not adventuring), then take them out with me and when I run out of my spells for a new day, it allows me to use the ones off of the scroll as well? Meaning, I can cast all of my spells allowed for the day and then cast more spells from my scroll as they're not from my daily allotted spells and are instead backup ones that I can use when I run out of my normal spells?
I think Scrolls allow me to read and use spells from them even after I run out of my own spells, so long as I prepared some scrolls from a few days beforehand?
Also, I might put Magical Lineage on Command instead, as it gives me far more options.
I was thinking if my allies were in flanking positions, I could order it to fall, giving both allies an AoO. I could call an enemy towards me, so it walks through my allies path, giving them an AoO and I could cast a Mark of Death on the floor in front of me, then command the enemy to approach me and step on it, plus I could tell the enemy to halt for one round, leaving it open for attack.
I was also planning on getting Badger's Ferocity to make all of my allies weapons Keen while I concentrate.
The way I want to play this guy involves a lot of tactical ways to screw over the enemies whilst aiding my allies to do my bidding. :D
I still think you're underestimating the power of bouncing meta magic.
I think bouncing is kinda campaign dependant.
Currently we usually only seem to encounter 1 powerful opponent at a time. Or they are not powerful enough to be worth a higher level spell. Other wise my wizard was originally planning on taking it at 7th level.
I still think you're underestimating the power of bouncing meta magic.
Really? I took it and know by its description it can be a great help if there's more than one opponent in front of me, but I can't get it until level 11 I think it was, because I wanted extend and heighten before that. Maybe that's a bad choice, I'm not sure.
I've tried to create my first ranged Fighter type as a backup for this too, so if my commanding King dies, I'll have a mercenary with ninja and rogue talents.
Fighter - Archer
Rogue - Sniper
Focus Dex and strength
Half-Elf:
Str: 14
Dex: 18
Con: 9
Wis: 16
Int: 10
Cha: 7
Composite Longbow - 1d8 + 2 x3
Perception: 2, 3, 3, 1 = 9
Survival: 3, 1, 3 = 7
Fort: 1
Ref: 4
Will: 3
BAB: 1
Initiative: 10
Traits: Elven reflexes
Favoured Classes: Fighter and Rogue, both with HP
HP: 13
AC: 17
Studded Leather Armour: +3 AC
Half-Elf abilities:
Low-Light Vision: Half-elves can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light. See Additional Rules.
Adaptability: Half-elves receive Skill Focus as a bonus feat at 1st level.
Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities: Half-elves are immune to magic sleep effects and get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells and effects.
Keen Senses: Half-elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
Feats:
Level 1 - Toughness, Improved Initiative, Skill Focus Perception
Level 2 - Point Blank Shot
Level 3 - Precise Shot
Level 4 - Rapid Shot
Level 5 - Deadly Aim
Level 6 - Weapon Focus
Level 7 - Manyshot
Level 8 - Weapon Specialisation
Level 9 - Extra Ki
Level 10 - Improved Critical
Level 11 - Critical Focus
Level 12 - Clustered Shots
Level 13 - Hammer the Gap
Level 14 - Greater Weapon Focus
Level 15 - Opening Volley
Level 16 - Extra Ki
Level 17 - Extra Ki
Level 18 - Greater Weapon Specialisation
Level 19 - Stunning Critical
Level 20 - Sneaking Precision
Build:
level 1 - Fighter
Level 2 - Fighter
Level 3 - Rogue
Level 4 - Fighter
Level 5 - Rogue
Level 6 - Fighter
Level 7 - Rogue
Level 8 - Fighter
Level 9 - Rogue
Level 10 - Fighter
Level 11 - Rogue
Level 12 - Fighter
Level 13 - Rogue
Level 14 - Fighter
Level 15 - Fighter
Level 16 - Fighter
Level 17 - Fighter
Level 18 - Fighter
Level 19 - Fighter
Level 20 - Fighter
4 Rogue Talents:
Sniper's Eye (Ex): A rogue with this talent can apply her sneak attack damage on ranged attacks targeting foes within 30 feet that benefit from concealment. Foes with total concealment are still immune.
Ki Pool (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains a small ki pool. This ki pool is similar to a ninja's ki pool, but the rogue's ki pool does not grant any extra attacks. The rogue gains a number of ki points equal to her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). These ki points replenish at the start of each day. If she already has a ki pool, or gains a ki pool later, she gains half her Wisdom bonus (minimum 1) as bonus ki points to her ki pool. She can spend a ki point to gain a +10-foot bonus to movement until the end of her turn.
Ninja Trick (Ex): A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool. A rogue can pick this talent more than once.
~ Vanishing Trick (Su): As a swift action, the ninja can disappear for 1 round per level. This ability functions as invisibility. Using this ability uses up 1 ki point.
Stand Up (Ex): A rogue with this ability can stand up from a prone position as a free action. This still provokes attacks of opportunity for standing up while threatened by a foe.
Hopefully the above guy's optimised as if Lelouch dies, I'd like a pretty decent character. In a way I'm kind of hoping the build above is broken because my GM has a habit of always rolling the highest possible number of enemies and more often than not, gets critical's far more than the PC's do. I made a thread further down the advice page for some criticism to be given on it. :)
Anyway, the main objective of this thread though, was to make Murderous Command more effective and you guys have been great in helping with that. In fact, the ways you described powering it up can be applied to all of my enchantment spells, so thanks very much for your input!
I think bouncing is far more useful at lower levels, I'd take it at first level personally.
When combined with Lineage, if you fail to Command someone, you'll have a free attempt to command their ally. Basically, as I see it, you're significantly increasing the odds at success when spells are most expensive in terms of opportunity. You have a limited number of spells, and a resisted spell is a wasted spell. When you're giving that spell a second chance to succeed, that's cutting down on potential waste, and with lineage, you're doing that for free. At first level, it's nearly broken.
Extend is also useful at low levels, turning a single spell into a multi-round spell, if it hits. That means you're spending a single spell slot to tie up a target for two rounds. With Murderous Command, it's potentially two targets for two rounds with extend. Again, with lineage, you're doing it for free. However, if the spell is resisted, the extend has no effect.
In my mind, it's about adjusting the odds in your favour, getting reliability rather than bonus effects.
Heighten spell tends to be most useful at higher levels, when you can spend multiple spell levels to get a special effect out of it. It is also far more efficient on spells that scale in multiple ways.
Command and Murderous Command, you improve the DC and Range.
Corrosive Touch, on the other hand, you're going from 1d4 to 2d4, for the same cost.
Inflict Light Wounds, you're doing 1d8+2, instead of 1d8+1.
With Divine Favor, heighten does nothing, unless you're at the point where increasing the caster level is enough to increase the bonus.
Heighten is very situational.
Also, I think I was confusing Spell Level and Caster Level, so I think it's actually more effective than I'm thinking, looking at it now.