Obviously I want CMB as high as I can, so I'm pumping strength into my Monk all the way. Are there other ways to improve this?
He's already a maneuver master. But I read in Treantmonk's Guide to Monks that fighters will have a higher CMB and this was long before the Lore Warden. What is he referring to? Is it just because of weapon mastery?
Also my build for 1-5 is thus right now just because I like the idea of Ki Throw and improved Ki Throw:
1. Improved Grapple, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip (monk)
2. Improved Bull Rush (monk)
3. Improved Ki Throw
5. Greater Ki Throw
I think that the flavor of Ki Throw is really cool, but is there something more optimized I could be doing? Is it completely dependent on my party?
We have a Hedge Witch (Starting with Evil Eye, Cackle and Heal at level 1 using feats), a (probably) Arcane Duelist Bard, and the fourth is going to be a tank of some kind, probably Paladin or Barbarian.
Also, chances are, the highest level I'm going to hit is level 5.
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Be Shoanti and take the 'Bred for War' trait.
The reason Treantmonk says fighters have such a higher CMB is because weapon focus, greater weapon focus and fighter weapon groups all add to CMB when tripping, diarming and sundering. For grappling and bull rushing though, the monk is competitive with the fighter.
Also at the time of writing on his guide, there was no easy way to get monks Greater Trip without becoming even more MAD with a 13 int requirement. With the possibility of either a re-roll on the CMB check or a +WIS to the roll, a maneuver monk makes a better grappler- and a well built monk's CMD will be better than a fighters, making escape harder.
Treantmonk's guide is very old, pre-APG I think.
Your build is good, and probably fun.
So it doesn't need much.
Look at style feats from Ultimate Combat.
I'd look at Dragon Style particularly.
If you grapple alot look at Turtle Style.
Extra Ki, I find that my ki pool gets eaten up quick, but I burn my ki points more than most.
If you are capping at 5 I wouldn't worry overmuch about CMB if you went with STR as a primary.
For a low level monk, that hits unarmed I can't suggest Belier's Bite any more emphatically. If it's available it's awesome.
EDIT: look at Enhanced Ki Throw from the Dragon Empires Primer.
It's a cool addition to this tree.
Be Shoanti and take the 'Bred for War' trait.
The reason Treantmonk says fighters have such a higher CMB is because weapon focus, greater weapon focus and fighter weapon groups all add to CMB when tripping, diarming and sundering. For grappling and bull rushing though, the monk is competitive with the fighter.
Also at the time of writing on his guide, there was no easy way to get monks Greater Trip without becoming even more MAD with a 13 int requirement. With the possibility of either a re-roll on the CMB check or a +WIS to the roll, a maneuver monk makes a better grappler- and a well built monk's CMD will be better than a fighters, making escape harder.
Hmm.. I kind of figured after looking at the fighter that that's what it was. The re-roll is pretty crazy good, it's true.
Treantmonk's guide is very old, pre-APG I think.
Your build is good, and probably fun.
So it doesn't need much.
Look at style feats from Ultimate Combat.
I'd look at Dragon Style particularly.
If you grapple alot look at Turtle Style.Extra Ki, I find that my ki pool gets eaten up quick, but I burn my ki points more than most.
If you are capping at 5 I wouldn't worry overmuch about CMB if you went with STR as a primary.
For a low level monk, that hits unarmed I can't suggest Belier's Bite any more emphatically. If it's available it's awesome.
Belier's Bite IS definitely good. Sadly it's not available to me.
I just discovered Monk of the 4 winds just now... Since I'm focusing on Combat Maneuvers I'm considering the merits of taking Elemental Fist instead of Stunning Fist at first level.
Can either Stunning fist or Elemental Fist be used as the "unarmed strike" you can use against a grappled foe?
I'm also curious if slow time would allow me to get 3 uses of Sweeping Strikes... I doubt that though.
EDIT: look at Enhanced Ki Throw from the Dragon Empires Primer.
It's a cool addition to this tree.
That is kind of nice. I kind of wonder why you don't get that anyway. With flurry of maneuvers, it synergizes really well.
Now I just gotta figure out where to put it. I guess I could make it my level 7 feat... (I currently have Step-up there, probably never get there though.)
Im wondering now if punishing kick wouldn't be a better swap for stunning fist.
Does it quality for the CMB? or is it a regular attack?
Elemental Fist is subpar without the 4 Winds archetype or Dragon Style's followup.
I'd take Enhanced Ki throw before Improved Ki throw, but thats a personal preference.
Putting enemies prone in an adjacent square would seem the primary tactic for you, to get some mileage out of Combat Reflexes.
Also; and I can't believe I forgot this; Viscious Stomp.
You already have the prerequisites covered. It will return the AoO investment immediately. That's pretty good at the low levels.
The Stomp would fit in if you swapped out Imp Grapple.
You'd out damage the rest of your party at low levels. Especially first.
Grappling sucks if your GM is not up on the grapple rules. Also unlikely at low levels.
Get Combat Patrol. Ki Throw lets you place the target in any square in your threatened area. With Combat Patrol, your threatened area increases dramatically.
The Stomp would fit in if you swapped out Imp Grapple.
You'd out damage the rest of your party at low levels. Especially first.Grappling sucks if your GM is not up on the grapple rules. Also unlikely at low levels.
Need imp grapple for ki throw though.
Sounds like I really need stomp though. Delaying Imp grapple might be worth it...
Get Combat Patrol. Ki Throw lets you place the target in any square in your threatened area. With Combat Patrol, your threatened area increases dramatically.
Combat patrol is good but because of the monk's BAB progression I am not sure if it's worth it.
The Stomp would fit in if you swapped out Imp Grapple.
You'd out damage the rest of your party at low levels. Especially first.Grappling sucks if your GM is not up on the grapple rules. Also unlikely at low levels.
Need imp grapple for ki throw though.
Sounds like I really need stomp though. Delaying Imp grapple might be worth it...
Gasp! I am completely wrong!
Huh...
Well stomp it is!
Ki Throw plus Viscous Stomp is very nice. Also, for non-weapon based maneuvers, you'll be fine w/r/t CMB/CMD, even compared to a fighter.
For an unarmed build (especially if you like to grapple) I'll also recommend the Dragon Style (and Dragon Ferocity) feats. Increasing your unarmed damage is great, and you can do that increased damage while grappling. Those two feats keep unarmed damage on par with 2H power attack. Increasing your mobility even above a normal monk is great as well. Finally, qualifying for Elemental Fist, with Four Winds progression is the cherry on top if you decide you want that as well. You don't even need to lose stunning fist for it that way.
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MY PFS Monk (Now level 11)has Ki throw and it is my favorite and most often used ability. The tactical possibilities are a lot of fun. It is a great ability to use out of the gate to really disrupt the enemy formation. Use your movement advantage to attack an enemy that is still flat-footed whenever possible. Then Ki Throw them into a charge lane and/or a good flank if possible.
I often play with another fellow and his Great Sword wielding. Inquisitor. He loves having a charge lane to attack a prone person in a flank. Can you say instant +8 to attack roll? By the time our Rogue (With Gang-up of course) gets in on the action, the poor monster has little hope for survival.
Then Rinse and Repeat.
Multiclass into druid, take the powerful shape feat and Wildshape into an allosaurus? Ta Dah! Effective gargantuan size, +4 to maneuver checks. (Shame you can't get colossal this way)
prototype00
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I started my character for a love of Ki Throw as well. It's as good as advertised; setting up charge lines and flanks like no other. I've only used it once this way, but it's well worth noting Ki throw is one of the few maneuvers that legally lets you throw someone in danger (lava, over cliff, into that create pit the sorcerer made).
In the process of playing it, I've gone back on wanting to get Improved Ki throw. I rarely am adjacent to a standing foe, and have better ways to spend swift actions than spinning Ki throw. I'd much rather just focus on trip, grapple, and the occasional dirty trick and disarm. If you trip and have the vicious stomp / combat reflexes / greater trip combo, you get 2 AOOs.
As to increasing CMB, for trip there's fury's fall (+dex to trip) and anything that increAses attack in general (amulet of mf etc); and in general armbands of grappling, red ioun stone slotted (+2 CMB), and splash levels in lore warden.
Hope that helps!
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Meh, it's tough to balance them; if you went 20 levels probably 12 Lore Warden / 8 Manuever Master is "right".
First, you always want Level 5 of MM; being able to swift action your Wisdom bonus onto a manuever for a turn is pretty frikkin' handy; at mid-high levels this is +4-+5. This naturally assumes a non-Brawling Armor build.
Second, having the ability to make 2 "Standard actions" on top of your attack is HUGE. This means you can do the whole 9 yards; Trip them, reposition them via throw, Blind them (Dirty Manuever), and grapple them down. But this is high-enough level.
I've ultimately determined for PFS 7 Warden / 5 Manuever master is where I am aiming... Warden 7 gets me Weapon Training (Natural), with the ability to gloves it for a further +2. It also is the precise cutoff for the +4 CMB bonus. I consider the standard-action study "mostly a waste", but having tons of feats is handy.
Manuever Master 5 gives me that Ki Pool, the ability to barkskin myself (Qinong out High Jump), and of course that swift action "I get a +4" (I'll have an 18 wisdom by then).
I'm currently Lore Warden 3 / Manuever Master 2, with Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Grapple, Ki Throw, Combat Reflexes, Vicious Stomp, Weapon Finessee, and Agile Manuevers (so I can grapple / dirty trick with my Dexterity in addition to tripping and disarming... it's a dex build).
This setup may be really good for you if you are only going to level 5; maybe replace Weapon Finessee / Agile Manuevers with Binding Throw and Fury's Fall if you are a Str-based build. It maximizes the # of feats you get and what you can do.
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But your saves are better AND you get 1 more attack as a Lore Warden 12 / Monk 8. And -1 BAB isn't a big deal if you focus on manuevers, since your CMB is the same (higher for one manuever, lower for another... at level 20 your wisdom is probably in the 26 range, so +8 to any 1 manuever-type vs +2 to all of them should be a better deal). Once they are blind and tripped, BAB is largely irrelevant :).