This about feats making players spend an extra resource to do things that should already be inherent or should just be part of something else.
Weapon Finesse: This really should just be a weapon property that lets a player use their dexterity instead. No reason this should ever be a feat.
Dazzling Display: This should either just be a part of the perform skill itself or if you want to limit to martial characters than make it an addendum to having weapon focus or weapon specialization which makes sense in that training it you would give a "dazzling display".
Antagonize: Not only does should it not be a feat it's also just full of problems the way it's written. Antagonizing should be inherent to Intimidate. The way it should work: Once the character taunts as a swift action, if the target has failed it's will save (based on the intimidate check) on the target's next turn, with the exception of moving towards and/or attacking the aggressor they can only make a standard action and receive a -2 to all rolls.
I always felt that martial weapon proficiency should work in weapon groups as well.
I've also felt that some feats such as Weapon Focus should improve with BAB.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Step up: is just stupid as a feat, a melee combatant REALLY doesnt know how to stay engaged with an opponent that takes a step back?
Awesome Blow: basically a soccar kick or big swing that hits something small so hard it goes flying. It should not be a feat but rather an ability that any creature can use on a target 2 size categories smaller than them.
Point blank and precise shot should probably be combined into the same feat.
just to name a few
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The entire Vital Strike feat chain should be a single feat that scales with the character. Same with the Two-Weapon Fighting chain.
Step up: is just stupid as a feat, a melee combatant REALLY doesnt know how to stay engaged with an opponent that takes a step back?
Awesome Blow: basically a soccar kick or big swing that hits something small so hard it goes flying. It should not be a feat but rather an ability that any creature can use on a target 2 size categories smaller than them.
Point blank and precise shot should probably be combined into the same feat.
just to name a few
Step up seems like a feasible feat, sure a melee combatant know how, and this is represent by taking a five-foot step up to the opponent on your next turn. The feat allows you to do this as an immediate action, meaning not on your turn. Anything that allows you to act out of turn in combat should require an expenditure of some kind.
Point blank shot +precise shot agree
Step up - i like that feat sure a fighter Can take a 5 Foot step but a grelt and trained Fighter Can dó so instantly thats quilte a feat that normal men can't hope to copy
Edit:ninjaed
Five foot steps in general get pretty wonky, they are often forgotten when you're not using a battle map because they usually don't make sense. Hey, you attacking me with the sword: I'm going to take a step back and shoot you in the face.
Step up: is just stupid as a feat, a melee combatant REALLY doesnt know how to stay engaged with an opponent that takes a step back?
I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. Step Up lets you stay "glued" to to an opponent that takes a step back. It's an immediate action, so triggers whenever they move back, not on your turn. I think it's a great feat for melee types looking to harass casters or archers and prevents them from simply taking a 5 foot step back and casting/shooting.
Point blank shot +precise shot agree
Step up - i like that feat sure a fighter Can take a 5 Foot step but a grelt and trained Fighter Can dó so instantly thats quilte a feat that normal men can't hope to copyEdit:ninjaed
Glad i wasn't the only one to see it that way.
/shrug/ I disagree
its an instinctive reaction similar to an attack of opportunity. you can consciously stop yourself from following some one but if you have ever been in a fist fight or watched one on TV your will notice that the opponents are constantly moving back and forth seeking optimal positioning and those movements are almost instinct.
as instinctive as raising a shield to block a blow
as instinctive as being intimidated by flexing muscles and an angry attitude.
On a side note. the feat step up should be replaced with a feat called push back.
push back: In combat you are able to crowd your opponent and your telling blows may cause them to step away from you.
Benefit: When you deal damage to your opponent in melee combat you may make an immediate Combat maneuver check against your opponent. if you succeed you may take an immediate 5 foot step into your opponents square forcing your opponent to make an immediate 5 foot step away from you in the same direction.
The opponent that would be forced to move may refuse to move or be unable to move due to terrain obstacles or the square they would be moving into being occupied. If they do not move you may not move into their square but the opponent is treated as squeezed until your next turn or they move out of that square
Normal: you may not move an opponent against their will except with a bull rush like action.
/shrug/ I disagree
its an instinctive reaction similar to an attack of opportunity. you can consciously stop yourself from following some one but if you have ever been in a fist fight or watched one on TV your will notice that the opponents are constantly moving back and forth seeking optimal positioning and those movements are almost instinct.
as instinctive as raising a shield to block a blow
as instinctive as being intimidated by flexing muscles and an angry attitude.On a side note. the feat step up should be replaced with a feat called push back.
push back: In combat you are able to crowd your opponent and your telling blows may cause them to step away from you.
Benefit: When you deal damage to your opponent in melee combat you may make an immediate Combat maneuver check against your opponent. if you succeed you may take an immediate 5 foot step into your opponents square forcing your opponent to make an immediate 5 foot step away from you in the same direction.
The opponent that would be forced to move may refuse to move or be unable to move due to terrain obstacles or the square they would be moving into being occupied. If they do not move you may not move into their square but the opponent is treated as squeezed until your next turn or they move out of that squareNormal: you may not move an opponent against their will except with a bull rush like action.
Yes fighters do that in RL.And you can do it in game by taking a five foot step in your turn. The featrepresents something even faster. You are literally moving at the same time with your opponent. THAT doesn't happen in RL, only in Wuxia movies.
|
Quite a few feats that allow a single combat option that wouldn't otherwise be allowed *at all,* such as Step Up or Lunge I kind of wish were possible at greater penalties without the feat.
Making those 'maneuvers' more like disarm or sunder, something that *anyone* can attempt, but only the user of the appropriate feat is gonna be really good at (and not possibly risk an AoO or expend your own swift action that round or something to use), would, IMO, open up a lot more tactical options for the melee combatant.
And yeah, Weapon Finesse is probably the number one feat that I'd just axe completely. Any feat that every single size Tiny animal has to take by default, just to function, seems more like a patch over a hole on the hull of the d20 ship, than an actual 'advanced combat training' feat.
Combat Expertise: it's redundant with fighting defensively.
Strike Back: I have to be a level 11 full martial and spend a feat to ready an action to thwack a dragon in the nose when it tries to bite me? This is a terrible thing to make a feat.
Agreed!
Though much of this thread gets a +1 from me!
|
Power attack, Combat Expertise and Cleave make you pay twice to use them (expend a feat AND take a penalty), so either the penalty should be removed or the feat tax should.
Weapon Finnesse should be a weapon property.
Vital Strike should be a regular combat option.
Metamagic is another "pay twice" option. Remove the feats and just let higher level spell slots add metamagic to lower level spells.
Item Crafting feats are another pay twice option.
Feats should be a bonus or rules breaking element (spring attack is a great feat, design wise), anything that has a penalty or additional cost beside the feat slot should not be a feat.
|
People are always saying Weapon Finesse should just be a game rule that everyone gets. I for one am glad it isn't. DEX is already the stat for AC, ranged attack rolls, Reflex saves, and Acrobatics. Add melee attack rolls to that, and suddenly every character of every class needs 18 DEX, and there's nobody left who gives a shake about STR.
Point-Blank Shot. I guess +1 to hit isn't anything to complain about, but why do I want to stay within 30 feet? The whole point of ranged weapons is that I get to stand way, way over there and shoot. Unless I'm a rogue, I'm taking ranged attack feats because I want to stay out of melee. Why is the very first feat in the tree, the prereq for all other archery feats, telling me I need to be close enough to the action that a human can close the distance in one move action?
Quick Draw. The rules for what counts as an action and what doesn't lists nocking an arrow as an example of something that's too simple and reflexive to even count as an action. So drawing an arrow from a quiver, nocking it, and pulling it back to take aim all happens instantaneously, but drawing a sword from its sheathe is a move action unless you have a feat?
Trample. I feel like this should just be how overrunning works on a steed.
Stunning Fist. I've been saying this since 3.5-- the prereqs for this feat, and the restriction on non-monk levels, make it obvious that this is really only for monks. And monks don't even spend a feat slot on it anyway, they get it for free at 1st level. Any non-monk that wants Stunning Fist is better off dipping monk to get it than actually taking it as a feat. This should just be a class feature for monks.
People are always saying Weapon Finesse should just be a game rule that everyone gets. I for one am glad it isn't. DEX is already the stat for AC, ranged attack rolls, Reflex saves, and Acrobatics. Add melee attack rolls to that, and suddenly every character of every class needs 18 DEX, and there's nobody left who gives a shake about STR.
I dont' think that'll be the case. Yes, it makes dex a little better, but the damage output for a dex-based melee character is generally really low without the support of sneak attack or something. You really want damage? STR will always be the way to go, at least in this system it will.
Now, make DEX to damage easy to grab, and I think we may be getting into a problematic situation.
Stunning Fist. I've been saying this since 3.5-- the prereqs for this feat, and the restriction on non-monk levels, make it obvious that this is really only for monks. And monks don't even spend a feat slot on it anyway, they get it for free at 1st level. Any non-monk that wants Stunning Fist is better off dipping monk to get it than actually taking it as a feat. This should just be a class feature for monks.
I'd never considered this. I don't' know that i'm sold on it being a class feature, but there is some food for thought here.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A fighter can wield flails, all types of armor, shortswords, longswords, greatswords, maces, shields, lances, spears, halberds, axes, hammers, bows and so much more but nobody taught them how to throw a punch?
Valeros was too busy learning 'glaive-glaive-guisarme-glaive' and 'bohemian ear-spoon' to figure out how to punch someone.
What's even more amazing, is that every time a new supplement comes out with some new Simple and Martial weapons that he's never heard of, he has a brief dizzy spell as all that new training gets retroactively fed into his brain! :)
"Huh, I drank some dwarven ale, and I woke up next to a satisfied-looking goblin of indeterminate gender, with the knowledge of how to use a poison sand tube and a three-sectional staff..."
|
The entire Vital Strike feat chain should be a single feat that scales with the character. Same with the Two-Weapon Fighting chain.What a good idea ...
In fact, you might want to check out the Summer issue of Kobold Quarterly ... just saying :)
Are you talking about Summer 2011, or the issue coming in 2012?
|
|
Are you talking about Summer 2011, or the issue coming in 2012?The entire Vital Strike feat chain should be a single feat that scales with the character. Same with the Two-Weapon Fighting chain.What a good idea ...
In fact, you might want to check out the Summer issue of Kobold Quarterly ... just saying :)
Oh, sorry! Summer 2012 ... coming out in a couple months
Prone shooter irks the crap out of me, and if they errata it to give an attack bonus when you're prone it'll irk me even more. Shooting is easier when you have something to rest the gun/your elbows on, period. It doesn't require a feat
1) Childlike. Halflings should come with most this, provided they shave their feet or wear shoes.
2) The one that lets you get a surprise round with a bluff check. That's pretty much allowed by the rules already.
Maybe in RL you got this as a bonus feat and didn't know it? I spar quite a bit and can tell you from experience that untrained folks don't react that way in most cases.
your correct. which is why I think full BAB classes should get it as a free ability. full BAB classes represent people who are well practiced in hand to hand combat and would instinctively close with some one that was trying to take a step back and cast a spell or launch a full round of arrows at them. if some one wants to cast a a spell or make a ranged attack they need to fully disengage from combat. not take a step back. thats the penalty for letting the enemy close into melee range with you.
If anything, there should be a feat that lets you do that. Take that 5' step in a way that doesn't let the enemy react.
exactly. make casters and ranged players take a feat in order to hop back and do things in melee.
please note: I make this argument as a person who plays rangers almost exclusivly and abuse the hell out of the 5 foot rule. "oh... that guy rushed me and now I can just take a step back and get all of my attacks AND my point blank bonus? SURE Ill take advantage of that silly rule"
Making those 'maneuvers' more like disarm or sunder, something that *anyone* can attempt, but only the user of the appropriate feat is gonna be really good at (and not possibly risk an AoO or expend your own swift action that round or something to use), would, IMO, open up a lot more tactical options for the melee combatant.
VERY good idea!
Prone shooter irks the crap out of me, and if they errata it to give an attack bonus when you're prone it'll irk me even more. Shooting is easier when you have something to rest the gun/your elbows on, period. It doesn't require a feat
So True!!! why do you think the first thing that one of the first things you do in combat is get low? its one of the few things that would make crossbows usefull. (though reloading most firearms and crossbows may need a penalty or require a feat)
@Evil Lincon
Very good point. there have been many threads like this.
maybe Piazo should take some of this into consideration if they every look to do a 1.5 or second edition.
Just had an idea: I'd be fine if prone shooter added a bonus to shooting prone IF they also added an extra bonus, like you can crawl w/o provoking while prone
no reasonable reason you should be able to crawl without provoking. you shouldn't be crawling through melee.
personally I would say that while prone you get a +4 to your AC from ranged attacks. when using a crossbow, firearm or ray while prone you get a +2 to your attack. reloading a crossbow or fire arm in the prone position takes twice as long as it would under normal conditions.
(a feat would allow you to load normally while prone)
Well you do get a bonus to your AC vs ranged attacks while prone. Why would reloading take twice as long? Light's are operated by a lever, heavies by a crank, so it shouldn't take any longer.
Edit: Also, I'm talking about crawling away from the guy trying to beat you to death while you shoot into melee from outside said melee
I think Two Weapon Fighting and Vital Strike should be scaling feats, something a lot more feats should do. The feat does X, Y at Level Y and Z and Level Z. Overall, more feats should have scaling options. Like Dodge, Two Weapon Defense, ect. And some options, like Power Attack and Combat Expertise, should be base abilities.
Well you do get a bonus to your AC vs ranged attacks while prone. Why would reloading take twice as long? Light's are operated by a lever, heavies by a crank, so it shouldn't take any longer.
still a heavy pull. its pretty tough in the awkward possition of laying down.
especially the heavies which usually required a person to brace the crossbow against their stomach.
firearms should be obvious. especially the black powder ones.
@Pobbes: I think people would like the feat trees to do a little more. What I mean is, for example Vital Strike, is to provide something in addition than a static +xdx dice on damage at y level. The Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree is pretty big so what if Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense were rolled up into a single feat? Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Double Slice, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Rend would be an example of how the feat tree would continue.
Still, I like the approach of scaling feats, personally.
@Pobbes: I think I did give a bad example since Two-Weapon Fighting scales very well as is, just as you mentioned. However, I think a lot more Feats should do so. For instance, Dodge is good at Level 1 but Level 10? Later? It doesn't feel like anything more than a drop in the bucket. A lot of feats already scale to varying degrees like the skill Focus feat and all the "two skills/+2 (+4 @ 10)" feats. Power Attack is another good option though it could be argued that should be a core ability rather than a feat altogether like one of my favorite RPGs with the "Full Attack" option that increases attacks in exchange of being easier to hit.
And yeah, Weapon Finesse is probably the number one feat that I'd just axe completely. Any feat that every single size Tiny animal has to take by default, just to function, seems more like a patch over a hole on the hull of the d20 ship, than an actual 'advanced combat training' feat.
Tiny animals get it for free if I'm not mistaken, as a bonus feat. That might be a patch, but it works just fine.
I disagree with every example brought up in this thread (except Strike Back - that was silly).
I think a lot more Feats should do so. For instance, Dodge is good at Level 1 but Level 10? Later?
Dodge (and Weapon Focus) are *just* as good at higher levels - the same 5% increase. They scale with the number of attacks made against you (or you make) and the damage done by those attacks, all of which tends to go up as you level. They are the same drop in the bucket they were at first level, you just have more options later. They contribute the same. Scaling them puts them way out of proportion.
|
|
Tiny animals get it for free if I'm not mistaken, as a bonus feat. That might be a patch, but it works just fine.
Actually, they don't. They get the equivalent of Agile Maneuvers (ie: the ability to make Combat Maneuvers with Dex), but not the ability to base their actual attacks on it...meaning that every single one of them needs to use one of their Feats for it (and does so).
|
|
Still, I like the approach of scaling feats, personally.I think scaling feats are a good idea as well.
I think the issue with feat trees doesn't have to do with too many separate feats, but too many generations in those trees. In other words, the better options require too much investment in the tree to achieve. Especially with two weapon fighting, just TWF costs three feats and the other abilities.
*cough* did I mention that you might want to check out the up-coming Summer 2012 issue of Kobold Quarterly ... :) *cough*
@Pobbes: great points. I kind of feel that not enough was done to revamp the feat tree when it was converted over from 3.5. granted pathfinder was not interested in a total remake and just wanted to tweak the worst offenders but it still remains that there are too many "patch" feats and feats which seem more like a tax than a benefit.
The issue of scaling feats is a difficult one. when I think of a scaling feat I tend to think along the lines of feats that change as you level not just grant a bigger bonus. for example dodge > mobility > spring attack or blind fight > improved blind fight > greater blind fight In stead of forcing a player to take 3 vertions of blind fight they should just chose it once and it becomes improved blind fight automatically at 10 ranks in perception and greater blind fight at 15 ranks in perception. the player still has to be level 5, 10, or 15 to use the ability. but they are not forced to use a prohibitive number of feats to take advantage of an ability that represents getting better at doing what you do.
also... some prereqs simply do not make sense. Point-blank for example. point blank should either be free/unnecessary, (its just easier to hit when close) or connected to precise shot (your more accurate making you better able to hit targets up close or moving in combat) It should also not be the universal prerequisite for almost all archery skills. what does point blank or precise shot have to do with shooting faster (rapid shot) or trick shooting (multi-shot)
@Marc OK we get it, the advertisement for Kobold Quarterly is great but the fact remains its not out NOW and thus not really relevant to the conversation at this moment, nor is it instantly relevant to pathfinder as KQ ideas are not instant Pathfinder errata.
|
|
@Marc OK we get it, the advertisement for Kobold Quarterly is great but the fact remains its not out NOW and thus not really relevant to the conversation at this moment, nor is it instantly relevant to pathfinder as KQ ideas are not instant Pathfinder errata.
All valid points! My appologies!
Just one of those things, I guess - after spending a great deal of time working on exactly what is being discussed here, I just couldn't help myself :)
Like I said though, your points are perfectly valid - condider my lips zipped and buttoned!
Though i will be keeping my eyes open for that issue, now. :)
I've been noodling on this idea for a while now. Though I haven't come up with anything these fine folks have posted.
