I'm switching gears and turning my attention towards TWF. In the past I've simply pumped DEX as high as it would go while lamenting my overall lack of damage. Sure, I was getting multiple attacks but it was all nickel and dime stuff. For this character, I'm taking a different approach. Firstly, I have a fictional character that I'm going to base the PC on. The wife and I have been watching Spartahussy and we both kinda like the Ganicus character. He's a TWF'er with zero wisdom and he does like the ladies.
Here's the 25pb array
STR: 17
DEX: (15+2) 17
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 12
STR - all level stat pumps go here
DEX - prereq for Imp. TWF assured
CON - we're gonna need HP and this is the bare minimum. FC class point will also go to HP. Toughness Feat is almost a lock
INT - because the FC point is spoken for, I couldn't dump INT.
WIS - here's our dump stat. It's unfortunate because WILL is already a weak point for the Fighter Class. C'est la vie, Ganicus is ruled by his emotions anyway.
CHA - Ganicus is a bit of pretty boy so we can't dump CHA either. It's not optimal but that's the character.
Feats through 7th level
1h - Skill Focus: Acrobatics
1g - TWF
1f - Wea Foc
2f - Double Slice
3g - Toughness
4f - Wea Spec
5g - TWD
6f - Imp TWF
7g - Vital Strike
Feats that I was also considering are; Imp Init, Iron Will and Imp. Iron Will.
I'm considering going with the Weapon Master Fighter Archetype. I think it sacrifices Fighter Armor Training and I'm willing to role/roll with that. I figure Ganicus wouldn't go higher than Med Armor anyway (not unless Mithral was involved.)
Skills will focus on Acrobatics (maxed) and Diplomacy (1/2 level) with everything else being on a level-by-level / need vs. flavor basis.
Thoughts?
/edit - unlike the inspirational character, this one will wear pants.
The will saves on this will be horrible.
The will saves on this will be horrible.
And that is a very real problem, but I don't see any way around it. I could address the problem early on with Iron Will and there are Traits out there that will help WILL as well. It is possible to take a 0 WILL save into 1st level and have it up to +3 by 3rd. The other option is to dump CHA and put the points into INT or WIS. But we all know you can't do that... ::rolls eyes::
skill focus acrobatics is useless at level 1, vital strike is also a bad choice for a twf.
I flatly disagree on Acro - we're building for the future with this selection. If I don't take it at 1st level, there probably won't be room for it later.
Vital Strike only applies to the 1st attack, this is true. However, our group plays with a house rule that allows VS to be applied to the 1st attack of a Full-Round Attack. That makes it usable for a TWF'er.
Indeed. You know what's more unoptimal on a fighter then 12 charisma? 8 Wis.
Other things of note: You can probably live without toughness. I'd go with improved Initiative.
Why skill focus acrobatics? You will not be able to use it anyway since as level goes up the CMB of the monsters gets so high that even dex-based characters can't pull it off easily. I'd say that if you really want to move around you should get dodge and mobility. Two weapon defense sucks, trade that for dodge.
Vital strike is bad for TWFers (well, for almost everyone but especially for TWFers). I'd rather concentrate on dealing more damage on a full attack taking two weapon rend. Alternatively, if you really want to move and do damage cleave is a better option.
Your will saves will be extremely low. I'd take iron will instead of some of the above mentioned feats and later the improved version.
skill focus acrobatics is useless at level 1, vital strike is also a bad choice for a twf.
Setting aside loaba's group's generous houserule which definitely makes it useful... Actually I really like Vital Strike for TWF -- it means if you are forced to move and thus can't full attack, you can still get in some decent damage (in other words, use it as a back up, not a primary means of attacking). It's not a feat I'd pick as a priority, but I'd take it.
My thought would be forget about Toughness (you've got a decent con, d10 hit dice, and favored class bonuses if you need them). Instead throw in any of the following
- Move up 2 weapon defense and get that shield bonus earlier
- Take Iron Will to negate that Wis penalty on Will saves
- Take at some point (not necessarily at that level) Dazzling Display and eventually Shatter Defenses. Definitely NOT a priority, but the reasons are--you've got weapon focus and a good Cha for a fighter, and the concept would be a good one to build up Intimidate, IIRC. Also gives you something to do if you can't move in and attack right away, and eventually being able to render foes flat footed (shatter defenses) lowers their defense to your two weapon attacks, making it more likely your lower attack bonus attacks will hit--and also keeps them from getting an AOO on you if you want to move after you attack. Definitely not a priority, again, but just an idea. I'm not remembering clearly who Ganicus was but generally flash and intimidation by whirling weapons around seems common to Spartacus in general.
Consider dipping into paladin to help with your saving throws. (Even if you fall, you'll retain the good will save.) Alternatively take a level of barbarian and grab extra rage. (Pretty flavorful for "ruled by emotions".) Probably go that route at first level, dropping skill focus: acrobatics.
I like the idea of going Barbie, Pally not so much. Barbie rage does fight nicely within the whole "emotional gladiator" thing. That's not to say this guy is emo. He'll smash your face in if say something like that... If I do the multi-class thing, then I'd want to switch to Half-elf.
If you're using light weapons, go piranha strike. If you're not using light weapons, go with sawtooth blade (or whatever) which counts as a light weapon in the off hand (for twf purposes only) and get power attack in place of vital strike.
This is good stuff, man. I have to crack open the books and check these things out.
Iron will shoud be your 3rd level feat.
Based on the crap WIS, it probably should be and I'll make that adjustment regardless of multi-class or not.
I'll admit I haven't been watching the show, so grain of salt here...
Have you considered going the Shield Bash route? It gets pretty bananas later, when every bash doubles as a bull rush and you can trigger extra swings with Bashing Finish. Plus you'll have a bit of extra AC over other TWFers.
The Brawler archetype gives it a huge boost, but vanilla works fine too. I have a mad urge to try it with a Mobile fighter.
Main hand would be a spiked shield. Off-hand would be something light with a good crit range. I like the kukri or the cestus.
Just a thought. Don't know how closely you want to stick to the original character.
I would like to stay as true to Ganicus as possible.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
However, our group plays with a house rule that allows VS to be applied to the 1st attack of a Full-Round Attack. That makes it usable for a TWF'er.
Well, that certainly changes things. Any other houserules we should know about so we don't give you a bunch of irrelevant advice? :P
What's your goal with Acrobatics? Why are you prioritizing it so highly? (I'm unfamiliar with the character you're emulating - is he good at jumping? Balancing? Something else?)
Indeed. You know what's more unoptimal on a fighter then 12 charisma? 8 Wis.
You're preaching to the choir, man. It's gonna take some sacrificing to make up for that WIS. I could switch 'em out and roleplay things accordingly. Ganicus is not a leader, he is very much an "every man for himself type" and that could easily translate into a low CHA. However, he does score with the ladies regularly. Is that because of his great renown in the arena? If it is, that's a resource that a 1st level PC doesn't have. As much as I don't want a 12 CHA, the character pretty much calls for it.
Other things of note: You can probably live without toughness. I'd go with improved Initiative.
I think first strike is really important. But I also like Acro... Oh the decisions.
skill focus acrobatics is useless at level 1, vital strike is also a bad choice for a twf.Setting aside loaba's group's generous houserule which definitely makes it useful... Actually I really like Vital Strike for TWF -- it means if you are forced to move and thus can't full attack, you can still get in some decent damage (in other words, use it as a back up, not a primary means of attacking). It's not a feat I'd pick as a priority, but I'd take it.
My thought would be forget about Toughness (you've got a decent con, d10 hit dice, and favored class bonuses if you need them). Instead throw in any of the following
- Move up 2 weapon defense and get that shield bonus earlier
- Take Iron Will to negate that Wis penalty on Will saves
- Take at some point (not necessarily at that level) Dazzling Display and eventually Shatter Defenses. Definitely NOT a priority, but the reasons are--you've got weapon focus and a good Cha for a fighter, and the concept would be a good one to build up Intimidate, IIRC. Also gives you something to do if you can't move in and attack right away, and eventually being able to render foes flat footed (shatter defenses) lowers their defense to your two weapon attacks, making it more likely your lower attack bonus attacks will hit--and also keeps them from getting an AOO on you if you want to move after you attack. Definitely not a priority, again, but just an idea. I'm not remembering clearly who Ganicus was but generally flash and intimidation by whirling weapons around seems common to Spartacus in general.
This is more good stuff, thanks DQ. Ganicus is an add-on character, but you're right on with the fighting style.
Which brings me to this...
What's your goal with Acrobatics? Why are you prioritizing it so highly? (I'm unfamiliar with the character you're emulating - is he good at jumping? Balancing? Something else?)
Dude jumps of of walls and does flips etc. Obviously this is very difficult to simulate in an RPG. If it has to get cut, that's cool.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Indeed. You know what's more unoptimal on a fighter then 12 charisma? 8 Wis.You're preaching to the choir, man. It's gonna take some sacrificing to make up for that WIS. I could switch 'em out and roleplay things accordingly. Ganicus is not a leader, he is very much an "every man for himself type" and that could easily translate into a low CHA. However, he does score with the ladies regularly. Is that because of his great renown in the arena? If it is, that's a resource that a 1st level PC doesn't have. As much as I don't want a 12 CHA, the character pretty much calls for it.
Alternatively, if traits are allowed you could take one to give +1 to Diplomacy and make it a class skill. Then you wouldn't need the CHA so much. If you went with 10/10 on WIS/CHA, then such a trait would let you emulate that 12 CHA for "the ladies" (due to the +1 bonus) while also getting you another +3 due to it becoming a class skill. You could dump CHA to 8 and still have a net +4 Diplomacy at 1st level.
If the character is not inclined toward bluffing, disguises, or intimidation, then this would actually be more appropriate than a high CHA.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
What's your goal with Acrobatics? Why are you prioritizing it so highly? (I'm unfamiliar with the character you're emulating - is he good at jumping? Balancing? Something else?)Dude jumps of of walls and does flips etc. Obviously this is very...
Hm... Well, I know of one trait to make Acro a class skill, but that's specific to PFSOP (for members of the Andoran faction). You might work with your GM (again, if traits are allowed) to see about making a custom trait following the usual format of "+1 to Skill X and make it a class skill".
First of all - you guys rock. Y'all are really helping me with the fluff as much as the crunch. DQ's suggestion for a "dazzling display / combat intimidator" is golden. When I re-post the build, it will be with that in mind.
if traits are allowed you could take one to give +1 to Diplomacy and make it a class skill. Then you wouldn't need the CHA so much. If you went with 10/10 on WIS/CHA, then such a trait would let you emulate that 12 CHA for "the ladies" (due to the +1 bonus) while also getting you another +3 due to it becoming a class skill. You could dump CHA to 8 and still have a net +4 Diplomacy at 1st level.
If the character is not inclined toward bluffing, disguises, or intimidation, then this would actually be more appropriate than a high CHA.
I like where you're going with that and it matches my own perspective quite well. The character is not a major Bluff artist, but he does have occasion to lie.
I could still utilize Intimidate via the Intimidating Prowess Feat.
Indeed. You know what's more unoptimal on a fighter then 12 charisma? 8 Wis.You're preaching to the choir, man. It's gonna take some sacrificing to make up for that WIS. I could switch 'em out and roleplay things accordingly. Ganicus is not a leader, he is very much an "every man for himself type" and that could easily translate into a low CHA. However, he does score with the ladies regularly. Is that because of his great renown in the arena? If it is, that's a resource that a 1st level PC doesn't have. As much as I don't want a 12 CHA, the character pretty much calls for it.Alternatively, if traits are allowed you could take one to give +1 to Diplomacy and make it a class skill. Then you wouldn't need the CHA so much. If you went with 10/10 on WIS/CHA, then such a trait would let you emulate that 12 CHA for "the ladies" (due to the +1 bonus) while also getting you another +3 due to it becoming a class skill. You could dump CHA to 8 and still have a net +4 Diplomacy at 1st level.
If the character is not inclined toward bluffing, disguises, or intimidation, then this would actually be more appropriate than a high CHA.
+1
Also, I don't know the guy but it hardly seems to be a level 1 fighter. At level 7 you would have a +11 in diplomacy, which is enough for most girls, especially since at the time of the Romans all they did was copulate all day long. You probably didn't need to be Casanova to have success with the girls.
STR: 17
DEX: (15+2) 17
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 8
CHA - there it is, dumped. Luckily I don't play in that kind of group. If I were modeling the character on Sparticus, then I think a positive CHA score would be needed. Again, Ganicus isn't a leader and doesn't pretend to be. He's the House Champion and he'll bloody well practice when he wants to.
Feats through 7th level
1h - Skill Focus: Acrobatics or Imp Init
1g - TWF
1f - Wea Foc
2f - Double Slice
3g - Iron Will
4f - Wea Spec
5g - TWD
6f - Imp TWF
7g - Vital Strike
I need to figure out when to take things like Intimidating Prowess and Dazzling Display.
STR: 17
DEX: (15+2) 17
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 8CHA - there it is, dumped. Luckily I don't play in that kind of group. If I were modeling the character on Sparticus, then I think a positive CHA score would be needed. Again, Ganicus isn't a leader and doesn't pretend to be. He's the House Champion and he'll bloody well practice when he wants to.
Feats through 7th level
1h - Skill Focus: Acrobatics or Imp Init
1g - TWF
1f - Wea Foc
2f - Double Slice
3g - Iron Will
4f - Wea Spec
5g - TWD
6f - Imp TWF
7g - Vital StrikeI need to figure out when to take things like Intimidating Prowess and Dazzling Display.
i would drop two weapon defense in favor of intimidating prowess, if you wanna be good at intimidating its a much better deal then a +1 to ac IMO.
I'm Already palying a char similar to this. Will post a link.
|
I'm switching gears and turning my attention towards TWF. In the past I've simply pumped DEX as high as it would go while lamenting my overall lack of damage. Sure, I was getting multiple attacks but it was all nickel and dime stuff.
I recommend a class which receives big-time situational bonuses to damage: rogue, cavalier, samurai, etc, and just re-skin the appearance as a Roman gladiator.
Avoid dumped wisdom; it'll merely result in NPCs controlling your character after he fails a save. (Samurai are particularly good at avoiding this, although their multi-rolls per day are limited.)
I'm switching gears and turning my attention towards TWF. In the past I've simply pumped DEX as high as it would go while lamenting my overall lack of damage. Sure, I was getting multiple attacks but it was all nickel and dime stuff.I recommend a class which receives big-time situational bonuses to damage: rogue, cavalier, samurai, etc, and just re-skin the appearance as a Roman gladiator.
Avoid dumped wisdom; it'll merely result in NPCs controlling your character after he fails a save. (Samurai are particularly good at avoiding this, although their multi-rolls per day are limited.)
Why not use Agile weapons and continue using a dex build?
My advice would be to avoid Skill Focus, if you really want to be acrobatic, dip a level of monk or rogue. Monk would boost that Will save of yours and make Iron Will less of a necessity (as well as an extra bonus feat), rogue would give you an extra d6 damage per hit when flanking, two levels of either would give you evasion, and you have the skill-ranks to shove into Acrobatics and any social skills you want.
Which weapons is he using? Twined short-swords? I would take Weapon Focus at 1st level because that's when you really need that boost to hit, and take Weapon Specialisation as early as you can, that +2 damage really counts the earlier you can get it.
For weapons, I was thinking Short Sword. They work quite well in the thematic sense, but their crit range isn't stellar. Any suggestions for a a high-threat crit weapon? Rapier is the obvious choice, but I hate that weapon-type passionately.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
For weapons, I was thinking Short Sword. They work quite well in the thematic sense, but their crit range isn't stellar. Any suggestions for a a high-threat crit weapon? Rapier is the obvious choice, but I hate that weapon-type passionately.
A re-fluffed wakizashi from Ultimate Combat would be fantastic, if you can spare the feat for proficiency.
For weapons, I was thinking Short Sword. They work quite well in the thematic sense, but their crit range isn't stellar. Any suggestions for a a high-threat crit weapon? Rapier is the obvious choice, but I hate that weapon-type passionately.A re-fluffed wakizashi from Ultimate Combat would be fantastic, if you can spare the feat for proficiency.
For the right toy, yeah, the fluff can be reworked and the Feat slot can be utilized. My DM is a very reasonable guy and doesn't generate flak over something like that.
Kukri is king!
And I don't see power attack on your list of feats. That should be there soon for a TWF, definitely before vital strike.
Again as previous people have noted, I am unaware of the character you are trying to emulate, but depending on how far the game goes there is an archetype called dawnflower dervish (or something like that), that replaces armor training. The archetype has a long payoff at level 11, but allows you to move and do a partial full attack (you lose 2 attacks out of 5 normal or 7 if hasted). The other option is to take the TWF archetype that allows you to charge and attack with 2 weapons at the same time, as well as use two weapons at the same time for AoO's, which helps on damage and possibly makes combat reflexes more worthwhile.
Of note, I chose the dawnflower archetype as gloves of dueling are just too awesome, and I wanted to keep weapon training which the TWF archetype replaces.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Check out my Avatar. Currently 4th level.
I use a scimitar/cestus combo which lets me 2hand for better damage until doublestrike becomes available.
If that doesn't float your boat then twin kurkri's are better on a full attack but it means 8 levels of 1 hand sucky damage when you move.
Before you ask my CHA is so high so later I can take Skill fcs: Survival, Eldritch heritage (Orc), touch of Rage and Quicken SLA to use it on myself. Follow the whole Eldritch Heritage chain and buy 20 that's a swift +10 to attack AND damage on a full attack (8 attacks hasted)
Plus, Improved Eldritch Heritage will give that massive +6 permanent to STR.
So you get to play the strong, dexterous, good looking pimp daddy you want.
Who cares about 7 Int. Humans get 3 skills per level anyway. That's enough. Besides, your inspirarion is a slave so uneducated.
Tip: Wield high crit weapons but stay away from crit feats. Just be sure to get Pin down and Dazing Assault ( retraining it for Stunning.Assault later)
How about dipping Sohei monk? Light armor proficiency and you get the benefit of having no-offhand penalty to incur for strength mod or power attack to your 'off-hand'.
That only works with monk weapons
For weapons, I was thinking Short Sword. They work quite well in the thematic sense, but their crit range isn't stellar. Any suggestions for a a high-threat crit weapon? Rapier is the obvious choice, but I hate that weapon-type passionately.
Kukri is the only light weapon it will work for with a high threat range, but it's good enough; you will be relying on bonuses for most of the damage anyway.